3NM separation from SUA

[Palmpilot]

There are places where Restricted areas are not confined?

There are places where the non-restricted areas are more confined, and the restricted areas quite large. Did you look at the chart that I linked?

Yes, and no one suggested otherwise. What is so unfair about this?

Nothing.

I'm sensing an entitlement mentality...

You're mistaken. I'm just trying to explore the safety issues.

...but in reality you have nothing to argue against. Use that airspace if it is that important to you, but you are ignoring guidance...

If there is guidance that applies to VFR flights, I must have missed it.

...and creating an undue hazard.

Are you saying that a VFR flight one mile outside creates an undue hazard?

By the way, I usually only get that close at a corner.

I've already said that the people rightfully within the airspace often get warnings when they approach the boundary.

I'm glad to hear it!

What makes you thing the military is flaunting its privilege here?

I don't think that.

 

[EvilEagle]

I can tell you that I feel like I know exactly where I am at all times tithe boundaries in my Bonanza. I have iPad/foreflight, 430W, 395 and most importantly my only job in life is navigation and basic airmanship.

In the F-15 I hav an INS that is pretty good. Both it and I have to constantly update ourselves to where we are by our own recognizance (i.e. No GPS). We're also deconflicting from the other guys in the area, concentrating on tactics, g-straining to stay awake at 9gs and watching out not to bust the border (vertical or horizontal) while going 9 miles a minute. We do maintain a buffer when we can - if I need to work in VMC and the only clear airspace is on the border you can bet I'll be right on the line. If that's the case and my INS is struggling that day I could be slightly over momentarily- hopefully that's not the day you decided the 100' buffer was better than the 3NM buffer.

 

[Palmpilot]

Their R area should have been at least 3 miles from the airport....

Looks like it was. It was revoked in 1995, but I found a 1989 chart on a University of Texas Web site. Of course, this was before moving map GPSes became ubiquitous.

 

[Velocity173]

Looks like it was. It was revoked in 1995, but I found a 1989 chart on a University of Texas Web site. Of course, this was before moving map GPSes became ubiquitous.

Thanks for posting. Always like seeing the old charts. You can see on both those airports they kept a 3 mile arc away from them. Military fields, not so much. I remember flying into Lawson AAF the R area is right up against the airport boundary.

 

[Palmpilot]

I can tell you that I feel like I know exactly where I am at all times tithe boundaries in my Bonanza. I have iPad/foreflight, 430W, 395 and most importantly my only job in life is navigation and basic airmanship.

In the F-15 I hav an INS that is pretty good. Both it and I have to constantly update ourselves to where we are by our own recognizance (i.e. No GPS). We're also deconflicting from the other guys in the area, concentrating on tactics, g-straining to stay awake at 9gs and watching out not to bust the border (vertical or horizontal) while going 9 miles a minute. We do maintain a buffer when we can - if I need to work in VMC and the only clear airspace is on the border you can bet I'll be right on the line. If that's the case and my INS is struggling that day I could be slightly over momentarily- hopefully that's not the day you decided the 100' buffer was better than the 3NM buffer.

Thanks for explaining the realities that you have to deal with.

As for a 100 foot buffer, I agree that that would be way too close.

 

[Cooter]

You're mistaken. I'm just trying to explore the safety issues.

I guess I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Maybe I was misunderstanding your questions. There is more risk at 1 mile then there is 3 miles, you can make your own decision about what risk you want to take. I can say this, I have spent a significant amount of my flying hours operating in MOAs, Warning areas and restricted airspace. Unless I had a really pressing need, I would give them 3 miles. That is based on knowing what is going on in there, and a desire to maintain reasonable deconfliction.

 

[FastEddieB]

Interesting discussion.

I don't think I've ever been aware of the need for a "buffer", nor that one was defined, and with moving maps and GPS I'm sure I've cut Restricted Areas less slack than 3 miles while VFR.

I'll pay more attention and allow a bigger "buffer" going forward.

Thanks for the head's up!

 

[Palmpilot]

Here's one that I've never been able to figure out:

Why is there an airway that passes inside of a restricted area?

 

[Velocity173]

Well SUAs SHOULD be located away from airways to minimize impact but....

I'd imagine V25 gets shutdown for IFR during the times and altitudes specified in R-2504.

 

[Palmpilot]

Well SUAs SHOULD be located away from airways to minimize impact but....

I'd imagine V25 gets shutdown for IFR during the times and altitudes specified in R-2504.

I think we can count on that!

For IFR, I always filed V248 instead, and for VFR, I just made sure I stayed on the other side of the freeway.

 

[ircphoenix]

I flew through there yesterday. I'm always on flight following, so I made sure to inquire if it was active or not. Otherwise I do the same... fly to Paso and then stay east of the freeway.

 

[Doggtyred]

Here's one that I've never been able to figure out:

Why is there an airway that passes inside of a restricted area?

IFR gets rerouted if the R goes hot. VFR is responsible for self avoidance. At one time, 2504A when active was from surface to 6000 MSL, and 2504B when active was from 6000 msl to 15000 MSL. Your reroute could be as simple as a climb to/descend to instruction.

 

[Gmonnig]

This is a good thread. I deal with this daily. While I'm laying here "sleeping" between shifts, I feel like I can chime in. In my airspace I have R4501 in the middle of Missouri (and a lot of other military airspace). This is a live range with A10s and ground fire. When it goes hot, all aircraft in the NAS (that's anyone talking to ATC) must be 3miles laterally from the boundary. Two reasons, 1st, any aircraft inside the restricted area have to stay 2miles from the inside boundary. These are extremely high performance aircraft (F15, A10, B2, B1, B52 and I had two F35s earlier today) and while they are playing war games, they are not normally talking to us. If they get close to the boundary and we keep our guys at 3NM from our side, then there will always be the "required" 5miles of separation. We actually broadcast in the blind when an aircraft spills out of a military area. Basically we can put a pilot deviation on the aircraft. While you can argue the VFR pilots don't need 5 miles separation, if you are participating in the airspace system, ATC will want it. 2nd, our restricted area shoots live rounds! When we see an aircraft heading towards the restricted area (and not talking to us), it takes some time to shut the range down in a cease fire event. They physically gather the artillery and drive it down range to lock it up. Even VFR aircraft skirting the boundary will get the military on high alert. You think their scouts can tell 3NM from 3.2NM from their post? No way. I've had numerous VFR aircraft on the boundary that remained clear (barely) and had the phone call requesting all info on the aircraft for a pilot deviation/suspension. I would hate to be a VFR guy flying through our restricted area by accident. ADS-B will also make it easier to track down anyone flying through the airspace. I give a wide berth on all the R airspace in my airplane!

 

[John Bussard]

There are places where the reverse is true.



It's not a demand, it's a practical reality: Don't the pilots inside and outside have an equal incentive to avoid midair collisions?

Restricted areas are generally in place to mitigate the surface hazards of live fire as opposed to just aircraft to aircraft concerns. So yeah the pilots have a vested interested in it, maybe less so for the average gunner who doesn't really have a thorough understanding of the big sky/little bullet fallacy.

 

[John Bussard]

Yes, my point was "What is reasonable?"


By the way, how much of a buffer are restricted area users required to allow inside the boundaries?

The areas' interior is generally monitored, so there wouldn't be a specified buffer. Range controllers may or may not have instrumentation for aircraft tracking, and they may have experience to recognize an impending range bust (from in to out) but they are NOT ATC, and it often shows. Generally the buffer inside is defined by the comfort level of the aircrew with a potential PDR and an understanding of aircraft turn performance. Case in point R-2501 (29 Palms) and ZLA Class A conflicts.

The larger Warning Areas suffer similar challenges of surveillance vs control.

 

[Palmpilot]

Restricted areas are generally in place to mitigate the surface hazards of live fire as opposed to just aircraft to aircraft concerns. So yeah the pilots have a vested interested in it, maybe less so for the average gunner who doesn't really have a thorough understanding of the big sky/little bullet fallacy.

Wouldn't the larger restricted areas, such as the ones around Edwards and China Lake (shown at my link in post #28), have military aircraft operating in them?

 

[Palmpilot]

So far, the discussion has centered on horizontal separation from restricted area boundaries. How much vertical separation do people feel is necessary?

 

[SkyDog58]

So far, the discussion has centered on horizontal separation from restricted area boundaries. How much vertical separation do people feel is necessary?

when it comes to flying under the shelf of a Bravo, I always try to stay at least 300'- 500' below if possible.

 

[Velocity173]

So far, the discussion has centered on horizontal separation from restricted area boundaries. How much vertical separation do people feel is necessary?

ATC is required to provide 500 ft for IFR / VFR over the top. Personally for flying VFR, I adhere to that as well.

 

[Velocity173]

"Range control" isn't ATC but some R areas use military controllers for containment. At Wright AAF, when they aren't working in the tower, they're downstairs behind a scope working "Marne Radio." Not much controlling involved but they do have pink cards.

 

[John Bussard]

Wouldn't the larger restricted areas, such as the ones around Edwards and China Lake (shown at my link in post #28), have military aircraft operating in them?

Yes, but so does every MOA in CONUS. The discriminant is other hazards- Namely in the form of surface-surface or air-surface fires.