32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Help?:)

bigred177

bigred177

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bigred
So over a year ago or so my mom's Navigator started throwing a P0308 misfire code. I pulled the coil and boot out and the boot was wet. After some research I found out is was a somewhat common issue, but that if you just kept blowing it out, it would be fine until it filled up again. So that's what I've been doing on a periodic basis.

Since I'm fixing to leave for training and won't be available I decided to go ahead and fix the issue. I thought the problem was that the lower intake manifold gasket was leaking coolant into the dwell. After tearing into it a little I just can't see how this is happening, and I can't justify tearing deeper into the engine until I can reconcile that in my head. I posted this on Ford Truck Enthusiasts but they have been slow to answer, the car is half apart, and she needs it. Everyone here has always been the most helpful even in things unrelated to aviation so I want to post the posts and pictures here and see if anyone has dealt with this or a similar problem.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

It's finally time to replace the gasket for the intake manifold. For some time now the car has been doing great with just the occasional blowout of the spark plug hole when the misfire would appear but I'm having to do it too frequently now.

Is there a write-up on how to do the DOHC specifically? I thought I found one at one time but I can't find it now. Other than the gasket set, new thermostat, and new spark plugs, is there anything else that needs replacing while I'm there? The car has 200k miles on it. I shouldn't need a new manifold correct? It's just the gasket?
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Alright, I'm working my way through the teardown.

I have the rear part of the upper intake off and most of the bolts for the rest of the upper off. What's the easiest way to get the two by the EGR off? The insulation makes my ratchet and socket not fit but I don't think I can get my closed end wrench in there and get enough torque to break them loose.

Also, I'm sure the gasket is causing the problem of my spark plug cylinder filling up, based on reading threads online, but I can't visualize how the coolant is making its way in there as I look at how the intake attaches to the engine. Can someone describe or picture the layout?

While I had a break I wanted your advice on the condition of this tube. It looks like it's in pretty good shape and I'd almost feel bad cutting it for not as good of a connection.

 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I've read some more trying to picture in my mind how this can happen on this engine. I see how the water/coolant can get in there on the 2 valve engine but I can't see it from a leaking intake on this engine. It has happened more than one time and it does feel like coolant, but are these trucks known for the hood cowl leaking water into the plug wells too or some other leak getting coolant into the #8 well? Or is this 100% the intake manifold gasket? I have the rear portion of the upper intake off and I don't know if I should continue or not. I am starting to doubt myself.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

There aren't any drips under the car, but there is a little bit of coolant loss over time. I'm going to take the upper plenum off since there are only two blots left and the upper gasket set includes it, but I'm going to wait until I hear something on the lower. I need to reconcile this in my head before I go for that. The difference in gasket sets is like $40 so I'd like to avoid buying the lower if there's no reason for it.

Inside lower intake manifold, Cyl. 8. If you can tell anything.





When I removed the coil cover, this is what the seal looked like



Maybe water got in?

#8 coil area





Video still of the #8 plug dwell





Dwell 5 for comparison



Going to post the videos as they upload to see if anything noticeable shows up.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Are you pulling the intake because the #8 spark plug hole and coil are getting wet? I sure hope not.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

My brother say low compression happens on #8 sometimes. Also, the fuel pressure regulator needs to be checked, and the COP as well. The fluid under the COP is water condensation or sure it's coolant? Has the #8 fuel injector been replaced or swapped?

The ECM has enough brains that it compensates for rotational delay by a non-firing cylinder, also the added unburned fuel in the exhaust stream. I don't know about the little pipe you are talking about but cutting it sounds like a huge mistake. Replace it if it's not up to servicable condition.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I'm not sure where the heater hoses attach on this engine. Any chance it's right over #8?

It's next to impossible to get a coolant leak in a V engine lower intake manifold without getting it in the oil.

Given that this is all the way in the back of the engine, could it be the windshield washer that's ****ing on your spark plug?

Fords with one cylinder misses automatically get a fuel pressure regulator check when I'm involved. Real easy. Idle the engine for a few minutes, then shut it off and pull the vacuum line. Any fuel that drips out condemns the regulator.
 
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Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

mikeinbama said:
Are you pulling the intake because the #8 spark plug hole and coil are getting wet? I sure hope not.
Click to expand...

That was the plan, until things started not lining up. This is a very common issue for the 16v 5.4l engines and I didn't know how different they were until I started on it.

docmirror said:
My brother say low compression happens on #8 sometimes. Also, the fuel pressure regulator needs to be checked, and the COP as well. The fluid under the COP is water condensation or sure it's coolant? Has the #8 fuel injector been replaced or swapped?

The ECM has enough brains that it compensates for rotational delay by a non-firing cylinder, also the added unburned fuel in the exhaust stream. I don't know about the little pipe you are talking about but cutting it sounds like a huge mistake. Replace it if it's not up to servicable condition.
Click to expand...

The metal tube was a suggestion to check as something that gets rusted out over time. Mine is good, I'm not doing that, it was just copied and pasted from the original thread.

The thing is, This ONLY happens after enough fluid has built up in the dwell and it misfires. Then I will take it apart and blow it out and it won't miss until the dwell fills up again. I'd suspect other things, but the fluid is pretty certainly causing it.

MAKG1 said:
I'm not sure where the heater hoses attach on this engine. Any chance it's right over #8?

It's next to impossible to get a coolant leak in a V engine lower intake manifold without getting it in the oil.

Given that this is all the way in the back of the engine, could it be the windshield washer that's ****ing on your spark plug?

Fords with one cylinder misses automatically get a fuel pressure regulator check when I'm involved. Real easy. Idle the engine for a few minutes, then shut it off and pull the vacuum line. Any fuel that drips out condemns the regulator.
Click to expand...

It's extremely common for the 2v engine to have this problem due to a poorly designed lower intake manifold. But the design of these engines is apparently pretty different in this area and I don't see how it could be happening here. There aren't any heater hoses on this side, only vacuum hoses. She doesn't user her washer fluid that often but I will run them and check.

Like I mention earlier in this reply, it's the fluid in the dwell shorting out the coil, I'm 99% certain. I just don't know why there is fluid in there.

Sometimes it feels and smells like coolant, other times it feels like water. There is never a drip on the driveway, and very slight coolant loss over time.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Very different issue, but the Ford 4.6 modular with the SOHC in my crown vic did the same (well, similar... Coolant under several COPs) because ford thought a plastic coolant crossover through the intake manifold was a good idea. That was a pain to replace thanks to a single ***** of a bolt...

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

It's that way on the 2v 5.4l as well. This one is all metal, so I don't have that problem. I read another thread one time about how my lower intake manifold gasket is reusable and plastic, and that over time the two metals expanding and contracting would cause a leak in a coolant passage. I can't find that thread anymore and I can't picture it. I refuse to tear this thing down until I can get some confirmation on that, haha.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

For a high $$$ vehicle, the Lincoln Navigator sure seems to have it's share of mechanical problems. I'm not basing it off the one issue with your Mom's vehicle, just going by the stats. Best of luck with the repairs.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

sourdough44 said:
For a high $$$ vehicle, the Lincoln Navigator sure seems to have it's share of mechanical problems. I'm not basing it off the one issue with your Mom's vehicle, just going by the stats. Best of luck with the repairs.
Click to expand...

As a former Exploder owner, Ford = "Found On Road Dead."

At least they don't blow ignition modules without warning like the older Rangers did.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

bigred177 said:
It's that way on the 2v 5.4l as well. This one is all metal, so I don't have that problem. I read another thread one time about how my lower intake manifold gasket is reusable and plastic, and that over time the two metals expanding and contracting would cause a leak in a coolant passage. I can't find that thread anymore and I can't picture it. I refuse to tear this thing down until I can get some confirmation on that, haha.
Click to expand...

I don't recall any water flowing through the upper or lower intake on the 2V/3V 5.4L's, so are you sure coolant flows anywhere on the 4V? The only coolant line I recall is the hardline that runs from the back of the water pump, through the center of the valley (under the lower intake), and it runs up to the heater core connection on the rear-left of the engine. The hardline uses cheap $.05 o-rings that fail over time and cause coolant to pool in the valley of the engine and usually runs out the rear on top of the transmission.

I don't feel like that's your problem if it's just a bit of fluid in a plug well. You guys don't spray the engine down when you wash the SUV do you?
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

This isn't one of the 5.4s with the dual shell spark plugs is it?

Luckily my 2001 F-150 with the old 2v 5.4 has been solid, can't kill the thing. best vehicle I've ever owned.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

SoonerAviator said:
I don't recall any water flowing through the upper or lower intake on the 2V/3V 5.4L's, so are you sure coolant flows anywhere on the 4V? The only coolant line I recall is the hardline that runs from the back of the water pump, through the center of the valley (under the lower intake), and it runs up to the heater core connection on the rear-left of the engine. The hardline uses cheap $.05 o-rings that fail over time and cause coolant to pool in the valley of the engine and usually runs out the rear on top of the transmission.

I don't feel like that's your problem if it's just a bit of fluid in a plug well. You guys don't spray the engine down when you wash the SUV do you?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure coolant flows through on this one, but I'm pretty sure it does on the 2v.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/how-tos/a/ford-f150-f250-how-to-repair-a-leaky-manifold-361734

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/884573-removal-of-intake-manifold-on-5-4l.html

http://www.expeditionforum.com/f42/changing-upper-intake-manifold-metal-line-25686/

Was some of the reading I did to think I had this problem. I had read a bunch of stuff when this problem first came up but I can't find some of that material anymore.

The engine doesn't ever get sprayed down. The car would have to get washed at some point to spray it down during washing :lol:.

I was thinking maybe water was dripping down through the cowl onto the valve cover and getting in there, but this has happened when it has not been raining too.
 
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Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I know it runs through the throttle body on the 2V (in from the nipple on top, and out on the coolant tree on the lower left). The only places it runs on the upper intake is just the crossovers at the front and the rear, so the only possible place to get a coolant leak on the rear cylinder is at the manifold gasket, or a drip from the heater core connections above it. I've not had to do anything to my 3V yet aside from the plug change, so I can't say as to the specifics there.

However, since the 4V engines use those coil covers, I'd have to say the chances of a heater core line leak making it to the plug well are pretty minimal. Put on a new upper intake manifold gasket set, and make sure to clean up the gasket surfaces on the engine AND intake with a razor blade. You might get a ruler or other flat piece of metal to ensure that the mating surfaces on the plenum are true and flat to ensure that there isn't a casting/warpage problem.

EDIT: I just took a look at the 4V intake . . . man what an overly-complicated piece of work that is compared to the 2V/3V. In any case, I still think it has to be the intake manifold gasket leaking right next to the coolant passage by the #8 cylinder plug well.
 
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Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Bill Jennings said:
This isn't one of the 5.4s with the dual shell spark plugs is it?

Luckily my 2001 F-150 with the old 2v 5.4 has been solid, can't kill the thing. best vehicle I've ever owned.
Click to expand...

The 2-piece spark plugs were used from 2004-2008, but wouldn't have anything to do with this issue.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

SoonerAviator said:
I know it runs through the throttle body on the 2V (in from the nipple on top, and out on the coolant tree on the lower left). The only places it runs on the upper intake is just the crossovers at the front and the rear, so the only possible place to get a coolant leak on the rear cylinder is at the manifold gasket, or a drip from the heater core connections above it. I've not had to do anything to my 3V yet aside from the plug change, so I can't say as to the specifics there.

However, since the 4V engines use those coil covers, I'd have to say the chances of a heater core line leak making it to the plug well are pretty minimal. Put on a new upper intake manifold gasket set, and make sure to clean up the gasket surfaces on the engine AND intake with a razor blade. You might get a ruler or other flat piece of metal to ensure that the mating surfaces on the plenum are true and flat to ensure that there isn't a casting/warpage problem.
Click to expand...

Man I'd love to, but I'm not sure I can get my EGR adapter off of the upper intake. I tried last night and even with a 1/4" drive I can't get a socket down onto the bolts. Any suggestions for that? I'm afraid even if I do get them off I won't me able to get back there with a torque wrench to get it together again.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Extensions and swivels won't get you there? I'm not able to clearly see which bolts/orientation of the EGR, so I can't comment as to the issue. Isn't it just two bolts holding the EGR on, as well as a large nut to remove the EGR pipe from the exhaust manifold to the EGR itself?
 
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Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

The clearance between the EGR adapter and the firewall is keeping me from getting in there. The angle is too tight for any of the swivels I have.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

bigred177 said:
The clearance between the EGR adapter and the firewall is keeping me from getting in there. The angle is too tight for any of the swivels I have.
Click to expand...

You can try daisy-chaining box end wrenches.

Put the correct size on the bolt. Then get one size smaller or larger and put the box end in the open end of the first wrench.

Most importantly, with any exhaust bolts, including EGR, blow it down with a squirt or two of Kroil first.

As a last resort, you may have to remove something to make clearance, such as a front engine mount.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I ran the windshield washer a couple of times to see if it was dripping. The line i dry but I watched where the water ran down the cowl after and maybe there is something here?

Under the cowl, right over the driver's cylinder head.



The darker spot is water running down.

Now, I know the wire harness cover has a foam strip to seal against the metal there, but maybe it's finding its way down there somehow?



 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I'd go after that WAY before going after unconfirmed coolant leaks.

FYI, if you think the coolant is leaking, put some dye in and find out where.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I think I'll put it all back together and then maybe take it through the car wash with a towel placed over the area, see if I get any drips.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

bigred177 said:
I think I'll put it all back together and then maybe take it through the car wash with a towel placed over the area, see if I get any drips.
Click to expand...

Use the garden hose.

Don't run the engine or you won't be able to exclude the coolant leaks you were chasing.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I buttoned up the cowl and wire harness cover and laid a towel over the coil cover. When I finished watering the truck this is what I found.





Taking into account the messed up coil cover seal back there, it sure seems suspicious. I think I may clean everything on the valve cover really well and put it together and see what happens. No sense taking apart pieces if something else looks like the culprit.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I agree. Looks like you found a candidate for the plug well water. Make sure to put a dab of di-electric grease in the COP boot before reinstallation. It may help keep the moisture from shorting out the plug if it gets water in it again.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

I'm having a bit of trouble from the photo seeing exactly what's leaking, but it sure sounds like you found something very likely.

Simple answers are good answers.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

MAKG1 said:
I'm having a bit of trouble from the photo seeing exactly what's leaking, but it sure sounds like you found something very likely.

Simple answers are good answers.
Click to expand...

If only I had asked more simple questions before stripping the truck down as far as I did :mad2:
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Well it's back together and running, pretty nicely actually. I'm surprised :). I moved the cyl 8 coil up to cyl 5 and I'm getting a pending fault code on that one. I think all this time of shorting it, cleaning it, shorting it, cleaning it, has taken its toll. Got some funny codes at first but they seem to have gone away.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

ECM was re-learning new conditions. Go at least 85 miles and check again.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Or just unplug the battery for 15 minutes and re-connect.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

Well it's funny, it doesn't trip the CEL and they come and go. I have the Torque app and I'll scan one time and some weird codes will be there, then I hit refresh and they're gone.
 
Re: 32v 5.4L Lincoln Navigator Cylinder 8 Misfire, Liquid in the Dwell, Stumped. Hel

SoonerAviator said:
Or just unplug the battery for 15 minutes and re-connect.
Click to expand...

Ectually, that'll set a default map in some of the condition states(not everything is kept in ROM) of the ECM. It might still run a bit poorly until the car is characterized by driving a full cycle, which is roughly 80 miles. Cats age, O2 sensors degrade, fuel is different, injectors change resistance and flow, air filters clog, etc. The ECM learns all this and adjusts accordingly. :)
 
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