3 strikes rule

Swampfox201

Swampfox201

Line Up and Wait
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Todd W.
Awhile back there was a thread where a pilot discussed walking away from a flight after three items on or during the preflight didn't seem right no matter how trivial.

I walked away from a checkout on a new to me airplane after the following:

1. Could hear the Electric trim motor run when the switch was activated on the yoke but the indicator didn't move unless the manual wheel was turned by hand.

2. The press to test switch on the panel for the oil light, voltage, and vac lights didn't work. (Lights didn't light up)

3. Found some debris in the left tank fuel sample. Not big and not a lot but it was there.

I told the instructor I would not be flying today and why. He was fine with it and we spent an hour doing ground so I didn't waste his day.

Would the flight gone ok? Ya probably but seeing how I'm flying for fun and I have kids at home I said heck with it. Ill be back when things are fixed.
 
For the record I don't think anything was binding or crunching but I've never flown an airplane with electric trim before. Trim motor sounded fine.

Discussions went something like this:

"Hey is the electric trim working? How do I know if trim is set to takeoff when the electric trim switch doesn't move the indicator? Indicator moves when the manual wheel is spun. Is the electric trim actually working? Should we just deactivate the electric trim during flight and only move the manual wheel?"

"Hey the light test switch doesn't do anything. Think the bulbs are burned out? Well they are just idiot lights. All the lights do is tell you if the gauges are moving in the red, lets just watch the gauges."

"Hey there's floaters in the fuel sample. Check recheck and then check again. Yes they are still there. Probably not enough to cause a problem.....no water just floaters."


Alarm went off in my head and called it a day. Not trying to say my comfort level should be everyone's comfort level but just wanted to share the experience.
 
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Sound decision. Hope you wrote up the discrepancies in the book for the next pilot.

Cheers
 
What make/model?

Instrument light settings on dim?

Is the trim indicator the small round dial with two parallel white bars?

Strain the fuel to determine nature of floaters?

Sample from gascolator?

Does CFI frequently fly the plane?

Swampfox201 said:
For the record I don't think anything was binding or crunching but I've never flown an airplane with electric trim before. Motor sounded fine.

Discussions went something like this:

"Hey is the electric trim working? How do I know if trim is set to takeoff when the electric trim switch doesn't move the indicator? Indicator moves when the manual wheel is spun. Is the electric trim actually working? Should we just deactivate the electric trim during flight and only move the manual wheel?"

"Hey the light test switch doesn't do anything. Think the bulbs are burned out? Well they are just idiot lights. All the lights do is tell you if the gauges are moving in the red, lets just watch the gauges."

"Hey there's floaters in the fuel sample. Check recheck and then check again. Yes they are still there. Probably not enough to cause a problem.....no water just floaters."


Alarm went off in my head and called it a day. Not trying to say my comfort level should be everyone's comfort level but just wanted to share the experience.
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When an alarm goes off in the head, it's an alarm to pay attention to.
 
wabower said:
What make/model?


Instrument light settings on dim?


Is the trim indicator the small round dial with two parallel white bars?

Strain the fuel to determine nature of floaters?

Sample from gascolator?

Does CFI frequently fly the plane?
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PA-28-181

Thought of that. Made no difference when the lights were turned up. CFI called later maintenance shop said wire came off behind the instrument panel. Fixed

Not sure what you mean by "small round dial with two parallel white bars" I'm familiar with the Cessna 172 trim wheel and it looks like that only its between the seats. Shop said electric trim worked fine when they tested it. Question I have is when the electric trim is activated should the trim wheel spin on its own?

Did not strain out the particles. My best guess is it looked like rust. Shop said the plane sat a lot before being bought by the FBO. Shop is aware of the problem and is watching the fuel filter carefully.

Yes from the gascolator.

Not this plane. The FBO just recently purchased the plane. I would of been flight number 5.
 
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Good call. Not big issues, but that many little things, I'd have been suspect too, especially if I didn't constantly fly that plane
 
What were the corrective actions?

Gunk in fuel. What did you do? Drain the fuel or walk away?

Idiot lights not testing? Write them up or walk away?

Trim indicator. Write it up or walk away?


If you find issues then fix them or resolve them. If they are fixed or resolved then why not go fly? I was clearly on the side of 'arbitrary no-go numbers being dumb' on that other thread.
 
I believe the trim wheel and indicator should have moved. Your CFI should have known for certain.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
I once drove 10 hours because I couldn't get the right chart. Good on the OP, who will live to fly another day.
 
Dead Stick said:
Sometimes even three strikes would be way too generous.
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No kidding!!

When I was looking to buy a plane I saw one in southern Illinois that was horrible. After looking at the logs we went out to see the plane. According to the log it had just come out of annual. Yet when we pulled the cowl off there was a bird nest in the engine of this hangared airplane, pulled the oil dipstick and the oil was black. The owner asked if I wanted to fly it. Nope, I left right then. It was apparent that the plane had its annual pencil whipped and who knew what else was wrong with it.
 
Why not change planes? Understandable if this killed your mood, no reason to fly either.

A story:
After a long day of disappointments (non aviation related), I went to the airport intending to fly. It didn't look like it was going to happen due to availability. Then a tailwheel CFI with whom I'd previously flown with came back and was willing to fly.

I was already frustrated and glad to just be in an airplane. We discussed doing some adventurous maneuvers prior to takeoff.

On departure, I decided I wasn't feeling it, landed at an airport a few minutes away, back taxied and went back to the origination airport. My flying day was done. I think I logged about 0.4-0.6hrs on the hobbs that day.

Sometimes, it's just not your day to fly.
 
I would probably have made the same choice, especially with junk coming out of the fuel sump.

As for the electric trim, it is most likely slipping. I had a PA28-140 that the trim was slipping. It wasn't moving the trim at all, but the handle was spinning. Cleaned the cable and where it went through the trim motor and it worked fine. I would have just deactivated and used manually.

Best to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the found.
 
CMTowner said:
I would probably have made the same choice, especially with junk coming out of the fuel sump.

As for the electric trim, it is most likely slipping. I had a PA28-140 that the trim was slipping. It wasn't moving the trim at all, but the handle was spinning. Cleaned the cable and where it went through the trim motor and it worked fine. I would have just deactivated and used manually.

Best to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the found.
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That's taking a large risk to fly an aircraft with a malfunctioning flight control. You have no idea the cause of the failure.
 
Is electric trim a required item for the flight? Does the manual trim wheel work normally? How tough is that to figure out?

Jaybird180 said:
That's taking a large risk to fly an aircraft with a malfunctioning flight control. You have no idea the cause of the failure.
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wabower said:
Is electric trim a required item for the flight? Does the manual trim wheel work normally? How tough is that to figure out?
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I would be concerned about the mechanical linkage connecting the electric trim, as the OP said he could hear the motor running. Prevention of jammed controls is worth.....you know the rest.
 
wabower said:
Is electric trim a required item for the flight? Does the manual trim wheel work normally? How tough is that to figure out?
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Yes, all flight controls are required to be in working order for airworthiness. You do not know why the electric trim doesn't spin the wheel. It might be because the wheel isn't connected to the trim tab.

If you discover this while airborne, you get to write an NTSB report (even if you don't crash). 49 CFR 830.5(a)(1)
 
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Am I am the only one concerned a plane was found with mechanical issues and may not have been written up and just left for the next pilot to rediscover?
 
Captain said:
Am I am the only one concerned a plane was found with mechanical issues and may not have been written up and just left for the next pilot to rediscover?
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If that is indeed what happened, yes, it's a problem.

The issues were certainly reported, but we don't know if they made it to the right people or not. CFIs are not usually responsible for maintenance.
 
I've cancelled flights for 1 strike.

Floaters in the fuel samples that multiple samples didn't clear. The 182 went in for a complete cleaning of the fuel system for that one.

Required documents not in the plane. Somebody had taken them home to copy them. Plane had been flown several times without them aboard. Am I the only one whose pre-flight checklist starts with ARROW?

Most recent (a week ago), during the time it took me to check the lights the fuel gauges dropped from full to 1/2 tank and I could hear the electric gyro in the TC was slower than a minute or so earlier. End of pre-flight and called the maintenance officer. Battery apparently is toast.

Did the OP do right? Absolutely. Take-offs are optional. I never second guess someone for not flying.
 
You did good.
Now:
Idiot lights don't light? I have a suspicion that since the manufacturer certified them and installed, they are on the required equipment list and the airplane is not airworthy when they don't work. (check it and let us know - same as the gear indicator lights on my bird)
Unknown Gunk in the fuel bowel ( as opposed to a few drops of water)? Only an idiot would jump in an go.
CFI did NOT know the answer on the trim wheel? :hairraise:
That says it all.
 
MAKG1 said:
If that is indeed what happened, yes, it's a problem.

The issues were certainly reported, but we don't know if they made it to the right people or not. CFIs are not usually responsible for maintenance.
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Well, he did say he told his CFI but the only thing passed on as a result was "He was fine with it" and they did ground instead. Was another plane avail? What was the CFI fine with? It would seem the students decision to not fly.

But if the problem(s) can be fixed or another plane found then what's the issue? Was any of it addressed?

The thread is about finding a number of things wrong and balling up the flight. I really don't give into that line of thought. As others have said, ONE thing wrong is often enough to scrub it. I'm not aware of a cumulative thing and I don't buy into some spidy sense legitimately shutting down a flight.

In fact, a pilot who buys into some voodoo sixth sense 'didn't feel right' nonsense isn't NOT a safer pilot IMO. I'd equate it to a pilot who dialed in an ILS freq that he got as an answer to an inflight prayer.

It either works or it don't. If it don't then fix it. When it's fixed go fly. And this post leaves wide open real problems were left unfixed for another pilot to correct and that's a BIG problem in my book. My problem there is obviously with the CFI and not the OP as he said the CFI was told.
 
Is the electric trim a required flight control? Do any exceptions exist?
MAKG1 said:
Yes, all flight controls are required to be in working order for airworthiness. You do not know why the electric trim doesn't spin the wheel. It might be because the wheel isn't connected to the trim tab.

If you discover this while airborne, you get to write an NTSB report (even if you don't crash). 49 CFR 830.5(a)(1)
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Is the electric trim a required flight control? Do any exceptions exist?
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Quite aside from that, even if it's "not required," malfunctioning trim can kill you. Don't you want to know exactly what it's doing before betting your life on it?

I don't see any discussion of "non-required" control surfaces, and frankly, it makes about as much sense as non-flying airplanes. If it's a control surface, it can affect your attitude, speed, or direction of flight. If it can't, it's not a control surface.
 
Captain said:
Am I am the only one concerned a plane was found with mechanical issues and may not have been written up and just left for the next pilot to rediscover?
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Go back and read post 10. Plane went into the shop after I left. Post 10 details what they found.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Go back and read post 10. Plane went into the shop after I left. Post 10 details what they found.
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Ah yes, sorry 'bout that.

I'd still be concerned about the trim wheel, as it sounds like maintenance answered a different question from what you asked. But third-hand free opinions on the Internet are worth what you pay for them....
 
Swampfox201 said:
Go back and read post 10. Plane went into the shop after I left. Post 10 details what they found.
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LIB,

I was looking for post 10 and didn't see it until you pointed me to it. Sorry about that. Forrest and trees and all.
 
MAKG1 said:
Ah yes, sorry 'bout that.

I'd still be concerned about the trim wheel, as it sounds like maintenance answered a different question from what you asked. But third-hand free opinions on the Internet are worth what you pay for them....
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No worries :). Lots if posts here.

I trust the shop and the CFI. They do a good job. On this day I just didn't trust the airplane. The CFI tried to explain how the electric trim works and I think he was right but I wasn't "getting it". I'm the kind if guy who needs a diagram showing how things work. We both agreed however it wasn't right.

The CFI might of canceled too for all I know. I just said no first.
 
Good calls. All of them.

Since I don't do it professionally, I can always walk away even if it's just a feeling... and I'm not even into 'feelings'.

I walked off a commercial flight out of Houston. They couldn't close a baggage door. More people were summoned and the door still wouldn't close, "Slam, hmm, slam, hmmm, some unheard discussion and 2 more hands, slam, etc". Walked up to the pre-2001 cockpit and gently asked the flight crew whether anyone was going to go out and check that out once it was closed. "No, the maintenance guys will take care of it".

Yes, I know that's the right call, but after returning to my seat and watching an even larger team try to close the door, I politely and quietly excused myself from the flight. I was warned that the airline would not cover any overnight expenses, etc but that was fine. Eventually the flight crew took a break and joined me in the gate area. I could see they were spooked and talking about me... I just crept away knowing that it would be fine. It was, and so was my flight the next day. Nothing lost.

If an arbitrary 3 strikes works for you, go with it.
 
Do you understand how electric trim works? Or how it's powered? Or how it can be made inoperative?

MAKG1 said:
Quite aside from that, even if it's "not required," malfunctioning trim can kill you. Don't you want to know exactly what it's doing before betting your life on it?

I don't see any discussion of "non-required" control surfaces, and frankly, it makes about as much sense as non-flying airplanes. If it's a control surface, it can affect your attitude, speed, or direction of flight. If it can't, it's not a control surface.
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Swampfox201 said:
PA-28-181

Question I have is when the electric trim is activated should the trim wheel spin on its own?
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Yes the manual trim wheel spins when the electric trim is activated. This has been true on the five archers I have flown. However, as the electric trim may be part of the autopilot (altitude hold), you will need to pull the specs for the autopilot installed in that plane to verify.

Stand outside and have your CFI run the electric trim to verify.

-Skip
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's taking a large risk to fly an aircraft with a malfunctioning flight control. You have no idea the cause of the failure.
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While I agree that part of it is malfunctioning, it wasn't preventing the function of the trim to work via the manual control wheel. The design of the electric trim is to allow for it to still work even if it malfunction or quits working all together.
 
This. Assume I'm giving dual instruction in the problem plane with no electric trim on the R/H yoke. I will be able to use elevator trim whether or not the electric trim is operable.

Among the oral questions I ask pilots using B/K autopilots are:

1. What system does the red button on your yoke disconnect?

2. What other system can it control?

3. What is different about how a button push affects the two systems?

4. How do I disconnect the electric trim using the red button?

5. What are my options for overcoming an electric trim run-away?

CMTowner said:
While I agree that part of it is malfunctioning, it wasn't preventing the function of the trim to work via the manual control wheel. The design of the electric trim is to allow for it to still work even if it malfunction or quits working all together.
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CMTowner said:
While I agree that part of it is malfunctioning, it wasn't preventing the function of the trim to work via the manual control wheel. The design of the electric trim is to allow for it to still work even if it malfunction or quits working all together.
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OBJECTION! - Assumed facts not in evidence.
 
Swampfox201 said:
Go back and read post 10. Plane went into the shop after I left. Post 10 details what they found.
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I consider the electric trim question unanswered (unresolved).


Post #10:
Swampfox201 said:
Shop said electric trim worked fine when they tested it.
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Translation(s): Unable to duplicate failure; intermittent failure; possible problem is loose nut between yoke and seat.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I consider the electric trim question unanswered (unresolved).


Post #10:


Translation(s): Unable to duplicate failure; intermittent failure; possible problem is loose nut between yoke and seat.
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The main problem is I'm clueless on how it's supposed to work. All I know is with the master switch on and the trim switch moved I could hear an electric motor running but neither the wheel or the indicator moved. Now I'm being told nothing was wrong with it. I haven't been back to try it myself. I could of had the instructor go more into depth but with the other two items wrong we stopped. Does the motor turn the wheel directly? Anybody have a link describing how this system works?
 
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