3 dead after small plane crashes into Fort Lauderdale parking lot

Hi,

From news reports, it appears to be the "impossible turn".

CNN said:
The aircraft had taken off from the airport, then tried to circle back and land, according to Vezina.

It didn't make it.
Click to expand...

Very sad - RIP.

Regards
John
 
Always sad.
I guess it is inherent in us to try and go back. I hope I never have to make that choice.
 
So what happened to make a twin go in like that? Did they goof after an engine failure and VMC roll, or did missfueling or something else cause a double failure?
 
Surprisingly, it was not censored from the live video feed on my JetBlue flight today....
 
John Young said:
Hi,

From news reports, it appears to be the "impossible turn".



Very sad - RIP.

Regards
John
Click to expand...
What exactly is the "Impossible turn" in a twin? News says it was a PA31?

Too many of these happening lately. :( Hate to speculate VMC roll?
 
The Live ATC audio is bone chilling. I don't know why you would even consider a turn back in a twin. A PA31 has some power to spare too...
 
flyingmoose said:
What exactly is the "Impossible turn" in a twin? News says it was a PA31?

Too many of these happening lately. :( Hate to speculate VMC roll?
Click to expand...

Impossible turn in a twin involves trying to make it back to the airport and VMC rolling.
 
flyingmoose said:
What exactly is the "Impossible turn" in a twin? News says it was a PA31?

Too many of these happening lately. :( Hate to speculate VMC roll?
Click to expand...
Hi to all,

The "impossible turn" is trying to make it back to the runway without sufficient height to start with. Most often will end with a spin in.

In this case, it hit a tree, then a fence and ended in the car park.

Many twins cannot maintain on 1 engine. We don't know about the take-off loads with this PA31.

Regards
John
 
If people aren't going to use their training properly, at least pull the good one back, push the nose down and crash with some control / as a glider.
 
John Young said:
Hi Duncan,

Your credentials are noted with respect.

Can a PA-31 at Maximum All Up Weight maintain on 1 engine?

We know there were 3 souls on board but we don't know about any cargo nor the take-off loads.

Regards
John
Click to expand...

Maintain and climb, it is a big reason we use one for 135 charters. Two of our guys used it for ATP rides requiring single engine go arounds.
 
Inverted said:
The Live ATC audio is bone chilling. I don't know why you would even consider a turn back in a twin. A PA31 has some power to spare too...
Click to expand...

How do I find the audio?
 
Inverted said:
Impossible turn in a twin involves trying to make it back to the airport and VMC rolling.
Click to expand...
No the impossible turn is regarding the single engine turnback. It is not impossible to go back in a twin, especially if you have the excess power that the 31 does. Turning is not a reason to VMC roll, but you already knew that.

Like others have said, we don't know the loading and we really don't know what was the issue was. Sad to see these accidents.
 
At 18:30 I hear not much.

At 19:05 there is what sounds like an unintelligible scream that lasts a second or two. That's it. Nothing before, nothing after.

Is that what you guys are talking about, or was there more that's been deleted?
 
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John Young said:
Hi to all,

The "impossible turn" is trying to make it back to the runway without sufficient height to start with. Most often will end with a spin in.

In this case, it hit a tree, then a fence and ended in the car park.

Many twins cannot maintain on 1 engine. We don't know about the take-off loads with this PA31.

Regards
John
Click to expand...

Minor quibbling point, but the term 'impossible turn' is generally used to refer to trying to turn back the the runway after losing power in a single. While there are some similarities, it is a bit different than a VMC roll.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
lr60plt said:
If people aren't going to use their training properly, at least pull the good one back, push the nose down and crash with some control / as a glider.
Click to expand...

A glider pilot is trained to make that turn from 200ft AGL. He makes a verbal 200 call on takeoff. If something happens and he hasn't made the call, he goes straight ahead. If above, he turns around with altitude to spare.

Airplane pilots need to know their minimum turn around altitude.
 
flyingmoose said:
No the impossible turn is regarding the single engine turnback. It is not impossible to go back in a twin, especially if you have the excess power that the 31 does. Turning is not a reason to VMC roll, but you already knew that.

Like others have said, we don't know the loading and we really don't know what was the issue was. Sad to see these accidents.
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I know the impossible turn is with regard to the engine turnback. I said the impossible turn WITH REGARD TO TWINS. Getting scared, turning back quickly, getting slow, VMC rolling and slamming into the ground makes it hard to survive right?

Not saying that was done in this case.

Yes the PA31 has excess power and can handle it. Do we know if it was a -310 or -350? The -350 can handle max gross climbs on one engine if it isn't too hot or too high.
 
Jay Honeck said:
At 18:30 I hear not much.

At 19:05 there is what sounds like an unintelligible scream that lasts a second or two. That's it. Nothing before, nothing after.

Is that what you guys are talking about, or was there more that's been deleted?
Click to expand...

The scream at 19:05 is the the last call that pilot made. At 18:15 he receives a clearance but you cannot hear him repeat it.
 
Inverted said:
I know the impossible turn is with regard to the engine turnback. I said the impossible turn WITH REGARD TO TWINS. Getting scared, turning back quickly, getting slow, VMC rolling and slamming into the ground makes it hard to survive right?

Not saying that was done in this case.
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Hi,

I am also not saying this is the case, but if Vmc or its full abbreviation Vmca is the minimum control speed at which a twin can be flown with its critical engine inoperative. Otherwise known as redline speed. Flying below this speed can result in a stall and consequent spin, especially when the aircraft is in a bank.

"Vmc roll" does explain the aircraft's tendency to start rolling when flown below Vmca. Below Vmca the efficiency of control surfaces becomes severely diminished.

Here is a Youtube footage of a QueenAir flicking and spinning in. It gives you an excellent picture of just how quickly a twin can flick. If low, the chances of survival are pretty bleak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

Regards
John

PS: Acknowledging the ATP who sent me this info.
 
John Young said:
I am also not saying this is the case, but if Vmc or its full abbreviation Vmca is the minimum control speed at which a twin can be flown with its critical engine inoperative. Otherwise known as redline speed. Flying below this speed can result in a stall and consequent spin, especially when the aircraft is in a bank.
Click to expand...
Are you new to twins? Because it seems like you are confusing things. In a twin, a loss of control from a VMC standpoint is not the same as a stall/spin. If it gets slow, a twin can either stall/spin or do a VMC roll....just depends on which comes first which can depend on several factors.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Are you new to twins?
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Hi FT,

I am a novice on twins but always keen to learn.

What do we have here? A PA-31 that encountered concerns shortly after take-off, tried to turn back, was cleared for the runway but didn't make it in a twin that should maintain on 1 engine.

What happened?

Regards
John
 
John Young said:
Hi FT,

I am a novice on twins but always keen to learn.

What do we have here? A PA-31 that encountered concerns shortly after take-off, tried to turn back, was cleared for the runway but didn't make it in a twin that should maintain on 1 engine.

What happened?

Regards
John
Click to expand...
We don't have a clue. Just poking at possibilities.
 
Jay Honeck said:
At 19:05 there is what sounds like an unintelligible scream that lasts a second or two. That's it. Nothing before, nothing after.

Is that what you guys are talking about, or was there more that's been deleted?
Click to expand...

That's what I hear too. :(
 
My son works across the street from the crash but happened to not be there when it happened. Too bad that they couldn't figure out how to bring the plane down safely.
 
Hi,

Heard on the news today that it was a PA-31T which is a turbo prop. Its known as a Cheyenne. Totally different aircraft from a climb performance on a single engine. We have discussed the climb performance as if it was the piston PA-31.

Can anyone confirm it was PA-31T ... ?

Regards
John
 
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