Warrior
Line Up and Wait
If it was a turbo it should have fabulous one engine performance?
3 dead after small plane crashes into Fort Lauderdale parking lot
- Thread starter John Young
- Start date
If it was a turbo it should have fabulous one engine performance?
Flight Aware shows a PA31 departing in that time frame. Of course the plane in question could have been a VFR flight and not be shown on FA.
The plane on FA appears to have copmpleted its flight.
Chieften or CR (not many PA31-310's out there) can be a hand full on one engine. I have a couple thousand hours in the 350 and a few trips to Sim Com. Navajo and excess power are not normally used in the same sentence. I have no idea what this pilot faced and will not speculate. One thing I do know if you are very heavy (full fuel and 600-700 pounds in the cabin) and you lose one on departure you have a problem. If flown with precision single engine ops are doable. It is however, very unforgiving of sloppy proceedure. If it was a Cheyenne II then we might have an entirely different discussion.
Perhaps we will know soon on the model in question.
The plane on FA appears to have copmpleted its flight.
Chieften or CR (not many PA31-310's out there) can be a hand full on one engine. I have a couple thousand hours in the 350 and a few trips to Sim Com. Navajo and excess power are not normally used in the same sentence. I have no idea what this pilot faced and will not speculate. One thing I do know if you are very heavy (full fuel and 600-700 pounds in the cabin) and you lose one on departure you have a problem. If flown with precision single engine ops are doable. It is however, very unforgiving of sloppy proceedure. If it was a Cheyenne II then we might have an entirely different discussion.
Perhaps we will know soon on the model in question.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
I am not sure if you are trying to school me on multi engine flying but it is not needed I can assure you. I am not sure what you mean by "flick" that is a term not used in aviation so you can tell the ATP that sent you the info that he is using incorrect terminology. In the case of the PA31 there is no VMCa or VMCg. VMC is VMC.
The Queen Air video shows the start of a VMC roll, but ends up entering a spin.
Inverted is technically correct. I do not believe VMCG, VMCL or VMCA is given in the POH. However VMC is a generic term in that the conditions must be specified. VMC in the PA31 POH is actually VMCA, though not called that. VMC for the PA31 is with one engine failed and windmilling, flaps set at take off (which is retracted for normal operations) good engine at max power, 5 deg bank into good engine, gross weight, and aft CG. I think I got most of the conditions. If you look up the definition of VMCA you will find the above conditions listed.
I believe this is true for most small piston twins. Generally when you get to typed aircraft you get the different VMC conditions such as on the ground, take off, landing and so on. Inverted flying turbo jet aircraft is much more familiar than I and I am sure can expand on this.
I believe this is true for most small piston twins. Generally when you get to typed aircraft you get the different VMC conditions such as on the ground, take off, landing and so on. Inverted flying turbo jet aircraft is much more familiar than I and I am sure can expand on this.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
Ronnie you are correct. I didn't mean to say that There is no VMCa for the PA31. Just that because there is only one number for VMC they don't have to specify VMCa VMCg or more. For the Lear we have 6 different VMC numbers to memorize so it can get more complicated.
News reported a father and son on board with a pilot doing some sort of "test flight"..... Whatever that means......
Still a sad deal...
Still a sad deal...
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
News reported a father and son on board with a pilot doing some sort of "test flight"..... Whatever that means......
Still a sad deal...
Another news report said the son was supposed to get married next week.
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wickedsprint
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Wickedsprint
Update on news.
Calling it a Piper Cheyenne out for a quick flight to check avionics on a customers plane.
Father and Son operated Avionics shop.
Calling it a Piper Cheyenne out for a quick flight to check avionics on a customers plane.
Father and Son operated Avionics shop.
lr60plt
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gotime242
That's not the point I was trying to make...it had nothing to do with turning around. As others have said...this is a Vmc issue.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
Twin guys practice this a lot; still, no one knows what actually happened and what was going on in the plane.
At recurrent training each year, we do many practice engine failures, the most challenging of which can be right after lift off at full gross and sometimes with other failures in combination. I don't know the PA31T. In the 58P and now the C-90, it's very important to get full power to the good engine if it's not already there, clean the plane up by feathering the bad engine (if one doesn't have auto feather), and getting gear and any flaps retracted, bank into the operating engine and climb--straight ahead until one can stabilize the situation and see what the plane will do. Once one gets some altitude and has things under control, options are weighted and executed. If one can't climb on one engine, the options start to look like a single with an engine failure with a longer glide time. Of course, low there may not be a lot of difference.
For the non-twin folks, as has been said, if one gets too slow, in addition to a possible stall, there may not be enough rudder authority to keep the tail behind the plane and one can enter a spin (remember, airflow from the good engine is only on one side and one is applying rudder to offset the asymmetrical lift). One can run out of rudder, that is, there's just not enough forward speed to give the amount of rudder needed to keep the tail behind the plane. Hope that helps explain this.
Of course, there could have been something else driving the quick turn back like smoke in the cockpit or fire.
Prayers to them and their families.
Best,
Dave
At recurrent training each year, we do many practice engine failures, the most challenging of which can be right after lift off at full gross and sometimes with other failures in combination. I don't know the PA31T. In the 58P and now the C-90, it's very important to get full power to the good engine if it's not already there, clean the plane up by feathering the bad engine (if one doesn't have auto feather), and getting gear and any flaps retracted, bank into the operating engine and climb--straight ahead until one can stabilize the situation and see what the plane will do. Once one gets some altitude and has things under control, options are weighted and executed. If one can't climb on one engine, the options start to look like a single with an engine failure with a longer glide time. Of course, low there may not be a lot of difference.
For the non-twin folks, as has been said, if one gets too slow, in addition to a possible stall, there may not be enough rudder authority to keep the tail behind the plane and one can enter a spin (remember, airflow from the good engine is only on one side and one is applying rudder to offset the asymmetrical lift). One can run out of rudder, that is, there's just not enough forward speed to give the amount of rudder needed to keep the tail behind the plane. Hope that helps explain this.
Of course, there could have been something else driving the quick turn back like smoke in the cockpit or fire.
Prayers to them and their families.
Best,
Dave
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John Young
Pre-Flight
Hi Dave,
A nice informative post - thank you.
I hadn't considered rudder authority in these situations.
Kind regards
John
A nice informative post - thank you.
I hadn't considered rudder authority in these situations.
Kind regards
John
John Young
Pre-Flight
Hi Inverted,
Not my style. Rather, I was trying to sync with the "I am not saying this happened" phrase.
With genuine respect to your credentials.
Regards
John
We're taught the procedures that Dave described above. We're also taught to mentally prepare (brief) for an engine failure before EVERY takeoff. However, it's easy to imagine someone going on a quick VFR flight to check some avionics not really doing that.
I was observing a pilot doing his initial SIC training in a Lear35 sim. He was given a V1 cut (single engine failure while still on the runway but past the speed at which you'd reject the takeoff). He over rotated, got below Vmca and that thing rolled and crashed so fast it was unbelievable. But seeing is believing, and it was a very sobering experience. Of course in the sim he got to do it again and did just fine.
My prayers go out to those lost and their families.
Aviation is often unforgiving. Training, and actually doing it how we train, is the best way to ameliorate that.
I was observing a pilot doing his initial SIC training in a Lear35 sim. He was given a V1 cut (single engine failure while still on the runway but past the speed at which you'd reject the takeoff). He over rotated, got below Vmca and that thing rolled and crashed so fast it was unbelievable. But seeing is believing, and it was a very sobering experience. Of course in the sim he got to do it again and did just fine.
My prayers go out to those lost and their families.
Aviation is often unforgiving. Training, and actually doing it how we train, is the best way to ameliorate that.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
I'm sure some folks on here could polish it up a bit. Not fun to see the tail of your twin coming around the side when you have opposite pedal to the floor!
Each plane is a bit different. In the B-25 the wings were pretty short and powerful engines create a lot of lift over that wing. When I talked about Vmc issues, my instructor said if I lost an engine on that one and got slow, the wing would probably stall before I lost control of the tail. Just a messenger on that--didn't try either. We used to lift off a couple feet and accelerate in ground effect to a speed where a single engine climb was doable. Below blue line but above a speed that would risk stall or Vmc issues. If an engine quit in ground effect, you chopped the throttles and put it back down, even if it meant sliding off the runway. Better to do that than lose control at low altitude which kills a lot of twin guys.
We had a 58 baron do a missed after losing an engine near here (local fella), The missed was going fine until he turned back to the airport while still low. As you know, one loses lift when they turn. If one doesn't have any lift to spare, it's not a good thing to do. Who knows what was going on in the plane. It was overloaded with family and friends. Might be difficult to be calm and analytical in those circumstances.
The plane will tell you if it can climb once you get it cleaned up if you don't panic. On departure, power is usually up, but not always. In my KA, I don't immediately redline torque because I don't need it and it will increase in the take off roll. Get the power up, clean it up, get the needed rudder in and see if it climbs. If it will climb, get to a safe altitude, weigh options and execute. If it won't climb, do what the single guys do: look ahead maybe slightly left or right and pick the best place to put it. You will have some power to use to get where it makes sense, but DO NOT try to stretch the distance or get slow with power.
Best,
Dave
Each plane is a bit different. In the B-25 the wings were pretty short and powerful engines create a lot of lift over that wing. When I talked about Vmc issues, my instructor said if I lost an engine on that one and got slow, the wing would probably stall before I lost control of the tail. Just a messenger on that--didn't try either. We used to lift off a couple feet and accelerate in ground effect to a speed where a single engine climb was doable. Below blue line but above a speed that would risk stall or Vmc issues. If an engine quit in ground effect, you chopped the throttles and put it back down, even if it meant sliding off the runway. Better to do that than lose control at low altitude which kills a lot of twin guys.
We had a 58 baron do a missed after losing an engine near here (local fella), The missed was going fine until he turned back to the airport while still low. As you know, one loses lift when they turn. If one doesn't have any lift to spare, it's not a good thing to do. Who knows what was going on in the plane. It was overloaded with family and friends. Might be difficult to be calm and analytical in those circumstances.
The plane will tell you if it can climb once you get it cleaned up if you don't panic. On departure, power is usually up, but not always. In my KA, I don't immediately redline torque because I don't need it and it will increase in the take off roll. Get the power up, clean it up, get the needed rudder in and see if it climbs. If it will climb, get to a safe altitude, weigh options and execute. If it won't climb, do what the single guys do: look ahead maybe slightly left or right and pick the best place to put it. You will have some power to use to get where it makes sense, but DO NOT try to stretch the distance or get slow with power.
Best,
Dave
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rottydaddy
En-Route
Which would just make it sadder... if the aircraft is going to leave the ground, it "counts" no matter what the purpose. Lots of pilots have died starting a ho-hum, milk-run trip in a familiar airplane... maybe they forgot that every flight is for keeps.
Still, losing an engine on departure in a light twin, even a big solid pig like a Navajo, has got to be panic-inducing even when you are prepared; hell, probably when you've dealt with it before.
I've always wanted to get into multi-engine flying, but this scenario makes me glad I don't have the money to do that.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Human nature being what it is makes it pretty likely that most any pilot will occasionally pay less attention to detail making a short flight in a familiar airplane. Fortunately, modern engine reliability being what it is, the chances for both events to occur on the same flight are pretty small.
Even when you're expecting it, the loss of an engine, especially near the ground while climbing at full power involves a significant reaction time. If you're not expecting it or worse yet are distracted by something else (e.g. checking the operation of some newly repaired avionics) it's likely that many seconds will elapse before the pilot will come to grips with the fact that he's got a dicey situation to deal with.
If you do make the (financial) leap to multi engine just plan to have enough available money to cover the cost of recurrent training. "Normal" flights with both engines running just don't do much of anything to maintain the required proficiency to deal with an engine failure. Even one so benign as a deliberate shutdown in cruise flight ends up in disaster way more often that it should when the pilot mishandles the airplane during the approach and landing.