2nd NAV options?

CRQFlier

CRQFlier

Pre-takeoff checklist
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CRQFlier
20th century called asking for their panel back....

Current panel: KMA 24, Narco 12 w/GS and DME, KX170 no GS, 496, Stratus ESG.

The audio and both nav/comms each have a bit of wonkiness. So I'm definitely getting a new audio panel - PAR200 or PMA8000 (plus GTR225), and a GPC355 (plus a CDI that I haven't decided on yet - 208, 275, or g5).

My real question is, what to do for a second nav? The shop I plan to use wont install used stuff. Otherwise there would be several last gen choices. I also feel like I need vhf nav w/GS, Crazy? I'd prefer not to keep my old stuff because each has an issue. I could get a TKM slide in I guess and swap a GPS175 for the GNC355.

I already hear ",just get a GTN650" instead of the GPS/GNC. Thing is I like some redundancy. Trying to be budget friendly while not wasting $$ on old tech.

What to do?

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Do you want both a second GPS and VHF nav? If so, you are somewhat limited in those options as new (GTN or IFD). If you are ok with just a nav/com could just swap the GTR225 in your plan to a GNC255. Trig has had a new nav/com under development, but it’s still not available yet.
 
I’d go with a PAR200, GNC 255 and GPS175 in your case. With a G5 HSI it can be the CDI for both the 175 and 255.
 
Thanks. Good call on the 255 both feeding a G5. Saves me a CDI. Still mostly redundant. GPS quits I've got VHF. G5 quits, still have a GPS. Anyone with an updated panel delete VHF nav completely?

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Lots of planes have no VHF Nav capability now, but still a small percentage. It is becoming more common. My plane had just GPs for a while, but I added the VHF Nav for training. In my 2,000+ hours I have never needed a VHF Nav Radio. I have only used it for a little practice, but I have always used GPs.
 
Your radios aren't legal now (unless you were sloppy with the nomenclature). The KX170 (and the 170A) and the Mark 12 (and 12A) haven't been legal for fifteen years as they don't meet the current frequency tolerances. Now if you're talking a KX170B or 12D, things might be different.

I have to say, I've been flying behind a WAAS Approach Approved IFR GPS for 15+ years now. I still have VOR capability, but I can tell you I've hardly ever used either my VOR or DME in the interim, for either VFR or IFR.

The one thing I'd be leary of is losing the ILS (LOC/GS) capability if you fly IFR at all. But if you're VFR-only, no biggy.
 
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flyingron said:
Your radios aren't legal now (unless you were sloppy with the nomenclature). The KX170 (and the 170A) and the Mark 12 (and 12A) haven't been legal for fifteen years as they don't meet the current frequency tolerances. Now if you're talking a KX170B or 12D, things might be different.

I have to say, I've been flying behind a WAAS Approach Approved IFR GPS for 15+ years now. I still have VOR capability, but I can tell you I've hardly ever used either my VOR or DME in the interim, for either VFR or IFR.

The one thing I'd be leary of is losing the ILS (LOC/GS) capability if you fly IFR at all. But if you're VFR-only, no biggy.
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Yes, a bit sloppy. 170b and 12d. your comment about the ILS is the key for me. I got my IFR rating when GPS overlays were just being put in place and the KLN89B was new. I flew a check ride with an ADF (in addition to vor/loc/gs) and not GPS. Even though I stay VFR these days, I like to dial the ILS when available for extra awareness. But I dont want to toss 5-7k out the window if vhf is a dinosaur.

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I’m nearing similar action myself, had a conversation, may deposit some $$ today. I have two working fine radios, #1 is a late model kx-155 with g/s. I have the Status ESG transponder.

I did some research on the Aspen instead of the dual G5’s. Right now I’m leaning two G5’s, possibly the GPS-175 instead of the GNC-355. I would almost go with just the HSI G5 but don’t like the idea of going in twice.

I’m trying to keep the budget reasonable. Since I already have it I would keep my ILS capability. A big factor is how one flys and intended use, including any anticipated training.
 
Sourdough, keeping the kx155 is a no brainer if it's working.

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I went with the GPS-175 then two G5’s. I already have two working radios, the budget factors in.
 
Everyone's minimums are different. For me I like having a Nav radio for GPS back-up. Our GPS system is more fragile than many would admit to hostile intent or other interference's.

Especially essential for IFR flights. In many cases losing GPS would be painful while IFR.

Long x-countries I'm continuously tuning to nearest VOR for immediate back-up. While in long cruise there is time for this stuff like tuning to a VOR.
 
Can't go wrong with the PAR200B. I just had one put in my 182 and I'm very happy with it. The book says that the TY91 has to be wired as Comm 1 in order to be able to monitor the standby frequency. Mine was wired with the TY91 as Comm 2, and the standby frequency can be monitored, even though the book says it won't do that.
 
For nav#2 you could use a KX125, with the GS indicator for a KX170B. (I forget the model # of the indicator) They are compatible, and the indicator has it's own GS reciever. The whole getup can be had pretty cheap, and works well.
 
If you want to save some money do the 7000B instead of the other audio panels. Slide in replacement for the KMA24 and a great audio panel.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
If you want to save some money do the 7000B instead of the other audio panels. Slide in replacement for the KMA24 and a great audio panel.
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I originally had this in mind but my avionics guy said the 8000 has better connectors (?) and the install isnt massively different since I'm replacing comms anyway. That said, he's recommending garmin over PS for the audio.

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If they won't install what you want (including used stuff), I'd find a different shop. Don't let the shop dictate what you install in your airplane. Plenty of shops out there are happy to install used gear.

In any event, I agree you should have at least 1 VHF navigator (I think 2 is unnecessary these days). If your shop won't install used gear, your options are pretty limited. An SL30 would be great, and will play with the G5 (which you should absolutely install; find the extra $2500 and do both AI and HSI).
 
CRQFlier said:
I originally had this in mind but my avionics guy said the 8000 has better connectors (?) and the install isnt massively different since I'm replacing comms anyway. That said, he's recommending garmin over PS for the audio.
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It is true that the newer style connectors (D-sub) are better than the older style (card edge connectors) but I'm not sure that's a reason to choose an 8000 over a 7000. Certain flavors of 8000 have more features than the 7000 and that would be my criteria to choose one over the other. I also prefer PS over Garmin but not necessarily by a wide amount depending on the unit.

NealRomeoGolf said:
If you want to save some money do the 7000B instead of the other audio panels. Slide in replacement for the KMA24 and a great audio panel.
Click to expand...
I thought there was a little more to it than that? The product page for it says:
https://www.ps-engineering.com/pma7000b.shtml
Here are the steps it takes to replace a KMA24 with a PMA7000B:
1) remove KMA24 from tray
2) remove the connector from KMA24 tray
4) remove tray
4) install PMA7000B tray
5) install connector in PMA7000B tray
6) install PMA7000B into tray

As far as the audio panel installation is concerned, its done. GO FLY

BUT.........

You will not have any intercom functions until that portion of the install is completed.

That's why there is second connector. This connector must be wired by your avionics shop that will provide all of the intercom functions, telephone interface, and music inputs.
 
When I upgraded my C172D panel in the early 2000s I installed a GPS COM and a second COM, but I wanted a VHF NAV with localizer and glideslope as backup in case the GPS system goes belly-up (which is looking more likely with FCC approval of the Ligado 5G application). I installed a standalone TSO'd Narco NAV122 receiver with VOR CDI/Localizer/Glideslope/3 Light Marker Beacon all in one 3" panel hole. When it was sold, the new owner did a big avionics upgrade but kept the NAV122 for the same reason I had installed it. The newer NAV122D (digital display and lots of surface mount components, but lacking the 3LMB receiver, should be more reliable, but frankly in the years I owned the airplane I never had a problem with it. The downside, as with any Narco product, is support. VAL Avionics makes a modern similar NAV receiver (NAV INS 429) but it isn't TSO'd. Used, reconditioned NAV122s and new VAL NAV INS 429 both sell for around $2,000.

The new owner's panel.
Jamey Szalay N2686U Improvements.jpg
 
bluerooster said:
For nav#2 you could use a KX125, with the GS indicator for a KX170B. (I forget the model # of the indicator) They are compatible, and the indicator has it's own GS reciever. The whole getup can be had pretty cheap, and works well.
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why would anybody spend money to install a indicator (k211 i believe it was) that has not been made for god knows how many years, are a problem to keep working and very few people to even work on them. sometimes cheap is not really cheap.

as much as I hate garmin, if your going with a G5, go with a 255 its about the only option that will talk to the G5.
 
CRQFlier said:
Nope. Sits on the glareshirld.
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The reason I recommend the swap is because a panel GPS can talk MapMX to the 660. If you load an approach or dial in a hold on the panel GPS, the 660 can draw it via MapMX while the 496 cannot. SynVis is kinda nifty, too.
 
bradg33 said:
If they won't install what you want (including used stuff), I'd find a different shop. Don't let the shop dictate what you install in your airplane. Plenty of shops out there are happy to install used gear.

In any event, I agree you should have at least 1 VHF navigator (I think 2 is unnecessary these days). If your shop won't install used gear, your options are pretty limited. An SL30 would be great, and will play with the G5 (which you should absolutely install; find the extra $2500 and do both AI and HSI).
Click to expand...
I'll be keeping steam until I can upgrade my century 1. waiting on trutrak certification which who knows may never happen. I suppose the safest bet is full garmin with gfc500. so much $$.

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asicer said:
Have you checked out the Trio Propilot?
https://www.trioavionics.com/Certified Autopilot.htm
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I have. Got an attractive quote direct from STC Group fixed rate. (TT is allegedly a few grand less installed.) But... I've heard there have been some install issues with trio and if paired with an Aspen only does heading (until Aspen upgrades). I've not decided between E5 or 2x G5. My guess is I'll do this panel in 2 phases, so just trying to not dead end myself. Already the ESG is a dead end, but works really well.

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Maybe you could find another shop for the installation of a used #2. It’s not uncommon to have used equipment installed. What they don’t like is the unknown. My avionics guy will put in used equipment, but it’s at your own risk if it doesn’t work.
I have a 170B and a KX155 with indicators for both if needed. They were pulled for upgrades. Typical fading, etc. The 170B has a stronger comm
 
unsafervguy said:
why would anybody spend money to install a indicator (k211 i believe it was) that has not been made for god knows how many years, are a problem to keep working and very few people to even work on them. sometimes cheap is not really cheap.
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Because I wanted GS with my kx125. And that was the best way to do it at the time. That indicator has served well for several decades. If it were to crap out now, well so be it. I'm currently saving my pennies for a gps175. so I can move the 125 to #2, and use the 175 for #1.
 
I wasn't exactly budget friendly. I swapped out dual KX155's for a GTN650 and a GNC255a along with dual G5's. I have great redundancy and also eliminated the vacuum system.
 
pnancoz said:
I wasn't exactly budget friendly. I swapped out dual KX155's for a GTN650 and a GNC255a along with dual G5's. I have great redundancy and also eliminated the vacuum system.
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You use the G5 hsi for loc/gs for both the 650 and 255? Or did you get a second indicator?

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CRQFlier said:
You use the G5 hsi for loc/gs for both the 650 and 255? Or did you get a second indicator?

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Click to expand...

The GTN 650 displays on the G5. I kept my existing KI 209 indicator for the GNC 255. I absolutely love the G5. However, it is far simpler to set your radials on the KI 209 than it is on the G5. If you're using your second NAV to identify waypoints on a VOR or ILS approach, it's easier to use the KI 209. Additionally, it's one more level of redundancy.
 
bluerooster said:
Because I wanted GS with my kx125. And that was the best way to do it at the time. That indicator has served well for several decades. If it were to crap out now, well so be it. I'm currently saving my pennies for a gps175. so I can move the 125 to #2, and use the 175 for #1.
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yes, that may have been a good option for you then, but for the OP it would be a foolish option now. the 214c has been discontinued for years, hard to get fixed, and if you find a working one, still cost way to much for what they are. for a new installation, discontinued equipment is chancy at best. I love the 155's, I have one my shelf, but I would not recommend a new install of one. even the bullet proof sl-30 has seen its day. with instillation costs what they are, the 255 is really the best option right now, and Im saying that a true garmin hater.
 
I was in a very similar boat. I had two KX-170B’s. After much research and thought, I ended up replacing one of them with a used GTN 650 connected to a 275 HSI (my DG started to spin, so I needed the HSI) instead of going with a 175 or 355. For Comm/Nav 2, I left one of my existing KX-170B’s with its existing CDI. This allowed me to put all my money into the best base unit, the 650, upon which I can build when funds replenish. I also have completely independent systems, making airborne VOR checks a cinch. Finally, I kept my second 170B, so if the one in my plane dies, I have a ready replacement. So far, I have loved it, and I am very glad I held out for the 650.
 
well, I thought I had made my decision but I just spoke with garmin support. Seems you can NOT have a single G5 HSI or 275 HSI switch between GPS input (via 175, 355, 375) and VOR/ILS via the GNC255A. Each nav source requires a separate indicator. BTW, this is the opposite of what my avionics shop just told me. So frustrating.

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CRQFlier said:
well, I thought I had made my decision but I just spoke with garmin support. Seems you can NOT have a single G5 HSI or 275 HSI switch between GPS input (via 175, 355, 375) and VOR/ILS via the GNC255A. Each nav source requires a separate indicator. BTW, this is the opposite of what my avionics shop just told me. So frustrating.

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Click to expand...

Interesting. My shop just told me I could have my 530 and the GNC255 show up on the G5 HSI too.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Interesting. My shop just told me I could have my 530 and the GNC255 show up on the G5 HSI too.
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For sure hundreds (thousands) have asked this exact question before. One or the other is wrong. I even asked about an external switch and garmin support said no go.

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CRQFlier said:
For sure hundreds (thousands) have asked this exact question before. One or the other is wrong. I even asked about an external switch and garmin support said no go.

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Click to expand...
I feel like I went through this before with my last plane. I thought the answer was as long as you had two digital inputs you can do two sources. Does this section then mean dual inputs from 1 source?

2.2.1.1 BEARING POINTERS
One or two bearing pointers can be displayed on the HSI for NAV (VOR) and GPS
sources. The bearing pointers are light blue. The bearing pointers never override the
CDI and are visually separated from the CDI by a white ring (shown when the bearing
pointers are selected but not necessarily visible due to data unavailability). If there are
two navigation inputs configured, two bearing pointers will be displayed.

(bold face is my emphasis)
 
CRQFlier said:
well, I thought I had made my decision but I just spoke with garmin support. Seems you can NOT have a single G5 HSI or 275 HSI switch between GPS input (via 175, 355, 375) and VOR/ILS via the GNC255A. Each nav source requires a separate indicator. BTW, this is the opposite of what my avionics shop just told me. So frustrating.
Click to expand...
Here's the G5 install manual:
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-10_23.pdf

It would appear that support for dual nav was introduced in rev 19 on 7/18/2019. The note on page 106 mentions the approval for dual nav configuration. Note #9 on page 163 mention how to connect both a GPS175/GNC355/GNX375 and a GNC255. However, on page 24 the last bullet point of the limitations states that the G5 cannot interface with dual navigators if G5 is interfaced with a non-Garmin autopilot. I believe it's because it would otherwise be possible for the autopilot to follow a course not displayed on the G5.
 
Well h*ll. That's good stuff. But why on earth did the knucklehead at garmin tell me no? A even repeated what he said to make sure I heard him correctly. So ridiculous. I'd hope they put more capable folks on the aviation support line than on the golf support line.

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