250 knot restriction dead?

[mscard88]

Approach: "Lear 123 say airspeed?"
Lear: "Lear 123 at 250 knots"
Approach: "Roger, Southwest 456 say airspeed?"
SW 456: "Uh, 456 is 250 knots"

Approach: "OK Southwest 456, can you please slow to 200 knots indicated, you're over taking the lear ahead by 50 knots........."

Oh yes, heard that many times going in to ATL, on final, just different airlines, usually the biggest airline there (hint hint ).

 

[Everskyward]

I don't know anything about jets, but I would imagine most of these jets have an indicated speed hold and probably press it at around 240-245 ias and let the jet climb like a bat out of hell to maintain that speed then swap to a constant rate climb and almost cruise speed after 10k. Throw some wind in there, how is ATC supposed to know exactly what your IAS is? They probably treat that speed restriction like cops do on the freeway. Sure you can go faster but don't go too fast or we'll get you. And when we get you we'll get you real good.

That 250 below 10,000 limit is not there at ATC's request. They don't care what your speed is except in relation to other traffic they are controlling. So if everyone is doing 250 and you are doing 300, you will be overtaking traffic.

 

[Kritchlow]

Relief that would require a speed greater than 250 KIAS below 10,000' MSL is not available from ATC.

When did I say it was? Apparently I wrongly assumed you knew what a crossing restriction is.

 

[kayoh190]

I hear ATC (specifically Ft. Worth Center) on frequency quite frequently giving speeds of 280-310 for spacing on airliners after clearing them below 10,000. Not sure of the legality there, just saying that it's happening.

They're asking for that speed while the airplane is still at or above 10K, with the expectation that the pilots will slow it down before going below. It's no biggie.

 

[coloradobluesky]

In active MOA's can military exceed it?

How about Restricted areas?

What about Military Training Routes?

 

[uncreative]

I did a tour of a tracon facility a few weeks ago and the controller I was patched in with asked a southwest jet for fastest practical speed while in class E below 10K I asked the controller if that meant >250Kts was authorized and he said no, he can't authorize aircraft to violate FARs.

 

[Velocity173]

In active MOA's can military exceed it?

How about Restricted areas?

What about Military Training Routes?

Yes, yes and yes. Not only exceed it but I've seen some in MOAs go right up against Mach. Guys on the MTR squawking 4000 I don't believe we had a GS readout because of the non discrete but you could tell just by the rate of movement on the scope that they're hauling the mail.

 

[Cooter]

In active MOA's can military exceed it?

How about Restricted areas?

What about Military Training Routes?

Yes to all. That's a good reason for VFR traffic to stay clear of those areas!

 

[coloradobluesky]

Why? How many accidents have there been with military running into GA aircraft in MOA's and training routes?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Does ADS-B show military aircraft also?

 

[Craig]

We used to have a special clearance from our field for first flights on aircraft. Accelerate to 500 kts at less than 100 AGL , then pitch vertical within the field boundaries and fly it off the top anytime over 35,000, remaining with the field boundaries at all times. If everything settles out ok, then transit to the company test area.

 

[roncachamp]

Why? How many accidents have there been with military running into GA aircraft in MOA's and training routes?

If the answer is none or very few would you conclude that concerns over a collision with high speed traffic in those areas are unwarranted?

 

[airguy]

If the answer is none or very few would you conclude that concerns over a collision with high speed traffic in those areas are unwarranted?

Are you advocating solutions in search of a problem?

 

[Kritchlow]

Are you advocating solutions in search of a problem?

I think there is a lack of problem due to the solution.

 

[roncachamp]

Are you advocating solutions in search of a problem?

Nope.

 

[airguy]

I think there is a lack of problem due to the solution.

Correlation does not equal causality.

 

[Kritchlow]

Correlation does not equal causality.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[ARFlyer]

I'm always slowing through 250 when passing through 10. If we are at 10 and doing 280 I'll slow to 250 before starting my descent.

I've often had to tell ATC pick a altitude or a speed restriction but not both. This normally happens after they give us an altitude and speed restriction that requires some insane descent rate. I can slow up or descend fast but I can't do both.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'm always slowing through 250 when passing through 10. If we are at 10 and doing 280 I'll slow to 250 before starting my descent.

I've often had to tell ATC pick a altitude or a speed restriction but not both. This normally happens after they give us an altitude and speed restriction that requires some insane descent rate. I can slow up or descend fast but I can't do both.

Pop out the bozo boards, it will come down.

 

[LDJones]

I don't know anything about jets, but I would imagine most of these jets have an indicated speed hold and probably press it at around 240-245 ias and let the jet climb like a bat out of hell to maintain that speed then swap to a constant rate climb and almost cruise speed after 10k. Throw some wind in there, how is ATC supposed to know exactly what your IAS is? They probably treat that speed restriction like cops do on the freeway. Sure you can go faster but don't go too fast or we'll get you. And when we get you we'll get you real good.

That's exactly what we do. Initial climb at V2+20 to 1,000', then accelerate to 200 KIAS until clear of any D or C airspace, then set speed mode at 250 KIAS which will hold that speed in climb through 10,000' at which point we bug 290 KIAS and accelerate to that for climb, transitioning to .70M climb as the speeds converge (usually in the mid-20s.)

 

[Cooter]

Are you advocating solutions in search of a problem?

VFR traffic through military training areas is a problem. Most non-military VFR traffic seems to be unaware of that, however.

 

[Cooter]

Does ADS-B show military aircraft also?

Maybe some, but not the ones you're likely to meet in a MOA or LLTR.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I'm always slowing through 250 when passing through 10. If we are at 10 and doing 280 I'll slow to 250 before starting my descent.



I've often had to tell ATC pick a altitude or a speed restriction but not both. This normally happens after they give us an altitude and speed restriction that requires some insane descent rate. I can slow up or descend fast but I can't do both.

They're instructions don't seem to be fuel efficient, I'm often expected to slam dunk it...and usually have to request an earlier descent.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

They're instructions don't seem to be fuel efficient, I'm often expected to slam dunk it...and usually have to request an earlier descent.

Fuel efficiency is the absolute last thing on ATC's minds. They just need to keep the traffic moving as efficiently as possible.

 

[dans2992]

Does ADS-B show military aircraft also?

Typically they won't have ADS-B out, but TIS-B may broadcast them as traffic to you if you're ADS-B in equipped.

If they have mode S transponders, they can be tracked via Multilateration.

There are tons of military targets on adsbexchange.com (you can filter to show only military). Mostly transports.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Larry in TN]

Greater than 250 below 10,000 is approved if more than 12nm off shore.

That's correct, though I would say that airspeed is not restricted more than 12nm off short to acknowledge that it is a lack of a regulation in international airspace, not a rule which allows the faster speeds.

I don't know anything about jets, but I would imagine most of these jets have an indicated speed hold and probably press it at around 240-245 ias and let the jet climb like a bat out of hell to maintain that speed then swap to a constant rate climb and almost cruise speed after 10k.

That is correct for the CRJ and E145 but the bigger jets have VNAV which manages the speed and climb profile.

I hear ATC (specifically Ft. Worth Center) on frequency quite frequently giving speeds of 280-310 for spacing on airliners after clearing them below 10,000.

The pilots are still expected to slow to 250 kts when reaching 10,000'.

 

[dans2992]

Do the guys with privately owned supersonic warbirds fly them > 12nm offshore when they feel "the need for speed" then?

 

[Velocity173]

Do the guys with privately owned supersonic warbirds fly them > 12nm offshore when they feel "the need for speed" then?

There are military supersonic corridors over land. Used to be one over central GA that ran from Columbus to Warner Robins. Whether or not they allow civ aircraft to use is a different story.

Here's one:

http://www.robins.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=8476

Back in the 90s people complained about the booms so they started doing runs out to the warning area. Was on position one day and witnessed an F-15 off shore doing over 1,000 kts GS at FL490.

 

[35 AoA]

Yes, yes and yes. Not only exceed it but I've seen some in MOAs go right up against Mach. Guys on the MTR squawking 4000 I don't believe we had a GS readout because of the non discrete but you could tell just by the rate of movement on the scope that they're hauling the mail.

Not just "right up against mach"……fully supersonic in the MOA's around here. However on original topic, you are correct, I don't think I've seen an overland SUA that gives it to you below 10k. Probably makes sense (if that statement is actually true), though there probably isn't much difference in me going mach 0.9X at 200-300 ft (not unusual) and going mach 1.0 in terms of safety around non-participating low altitude VFR traffic. That part isn't hot dogging, but actually required in some scenarios (within the confines of our SUA of course).

 

[mscard88]

Air Force fighters used around 300 kts to initial then bled airspeed off in the pitch and downwind. Slower on instrument approaches w/ their junk out.

 

[EvilEagle]

We have a waiver to 350. We depart at 350 KIAS and return at 300 (VFR), 350 for tactical initial and 250 at the first intermediate level off if doing an instrument approach.

Gear speed is 250 unless we have no external fuel tanks, then it's 300. Roll off the perch at 180, slow to on-speed AOA on final. (between 138-180 depending on fuel weight)

 

[mscard88]

When I worked the tower at Eglin always enjoyed the unrestricted vertical climbs at the departure end that were maintenance test flights, forget what they were called. Usually vertical to 23,000', level off inverted, and then roll over. The F-15s at the 33rd did them almost daily it seemed.

 

[Velocity173]

"Zoom climb." Safest way to get back to the runway in the event of engine failure.

 

[Velocity173]

Speaking of MTRs. Just passed a T-45 on one about 20 mins ago. Could see him on TCAD 1,000 below. At the rate he was clipping along, knew it was an MTR guy. Going to guns!

 

[Craig]

When I worked the tower at Eglin always enjoyed the unrestricted vertical climbs at the departure end that were maintenance test flights, forget what they were called. Usually vertical to 23,000', level off inverted, and then roll over. The F-15s at the 33rd did them almost daily it seemed.

FCF...Functional Check Flight. The pitch to vertical climb is for safety reasons. Should the jet flame out, or have a flight control failure, the airspeed gives the pilot enough altitude to either attempt a restart, or set up for a deadstick landing, or do a controlability check. Should none of the options be suitable, then there is plenty of time and altitude for grabbing the loud handle.

 

[unsafervguy]

Pop out the bozo boards, it will come down.

i assume you are not typed in the 145, the bozo boards do nothing but rumble the airframe.

bob

 

[RotorAndWing]

i assume you are not typed in the 145, the bozo boards do nothing but rumble the airframe.

bob

Nope, never flew the "Barbie Jets".

 

[mscard88]

FCF...Functional Check Flight. The pitch to vertical climb is for safety reasons. Should the jet flame out, or have a flight control failure, the airspeed gives the pilot enough altitude to either attempt a restart, or set up for a deadstick landing, or do a controlability check. Should none of the options be suitable, then there is plenty of time and altitude for grabbing the loud handle.

Yep that's it, FCFs. Fun to watch, and I'm sure even more fun to perform. SFOs were another favorite to watch with the F-16s. Basically a simulated engine fail at 7000' to the runway, gliding like an anvil!

 

[35 AoA]

Yep that's it, FCFs. Fun to watch, and I'm sure even more fun to perform. SFOs were another favorite to watch with the F-16s. Basically a simulated engine fail at 7000' to the runway, gliding like an anvil!

They are pretty fun….closest I'll ever get to flying a shuttle approach. You are in pretty much a ~15 deg dive and initially a 50-60 deg angle of bank from high key all the way to 400' ish on final…..then you start bringing the nose up to the horizon and flare normally. The whole pattern is designed to keep you in the ejection envelope, and of course to give you high and low key positions which you can use to judge if you are going to make the runway. It also keeps you (airspeed wise) within the envelope to get a JFS assisted airstart. Better to be a little high and a little fast……you can always scrub that off with the speed brakes or by extending a little bit from the 180 position. Pretty similar to PPL engine out pattern in terms of corrections, its just a lot steeper and faster. In all honesty, the overhead SFO is probably a little unrealistic, aside from maybe taking a bird in the overhead or on takeoff and maybe just making it to low key if you were fast enough starting out. If you were out flying around, most guys would be looking to get on a 1:1 glide to a field, and the earliest that would normally work out would be via straight in SFO. If you were high and very close to the intended field, then I could see some utility to the overhead method. Anyway, I digress…..

 

[EvilEagle]

They are pretty fun….If you were out flying around, most guys would be looking to get on a 1:1 glide to a field, and the earliest that would normally work out would be via straight in SFO. If you were high and very close to the intended field, then I could see some utility to the overhead method. Anyway, I digress…..

Just don't be like the guy who was in the pattern at Nellis a few years ago with a stuck throttle (because something was jammed in the rear cockpit throttle of the D model backseat since they didn't tie it down correctly) and set up for an overhead FO, then decided at the last minute to change to a straight-in... almost made it! Jet crashed about 300 yards short, he had to punch.