2 Separate Questions: Waypoints & XC Solo Endorsement

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Stink360

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Stink360
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?

2nd Question: I can not find this, and I don't think it exists, but I'll ask anyway to cover my ass ;) Before a student (PPL) goes out for their solo XC, is it required, by FAA standards, that the CFI have gone out with the student on that EXACT route before as a dual flight?

TIA everyone!
 
Stink360 said:
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?

2nd Question: I can not find this, and I don't think it exists, but I'll ask anyway to cover my ass ;) Before a student (PPL) goes out for their solo XC, is it required, by FAA standards, that the CFI have gone out with the student on that EXACT route before as a dual flight?

TIA everyone!
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1st answer: Why wouldn't you use a private airport for a waypoint if it stands out visually? Its like saying you can use rivers as waypoints, but you cant use roads.

2nd answer: No, I don't believe the CFI needs to go with you on the exact cross country flight....it defeats the purpose of flying by yourself to a new place...
 
Stink360 said:
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?

2nd Question: I can not find this, and I don't think it exists, but I'll ask anyway to cover my ass ;) Before a student (PPL) goes out for their solo XC, is it required, by FAA standards, that the CFI have gone out with the student on that EXACT route before as a dual flight?

TIA everyone!
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1. My student used a Pvt or unidentified airport as a point and he found it just fine. This was also near Poughkeepsie, NY so there is pretty much nothing but lakes and trees.
2. The only requirement is to review the cross country planning with the student. Nothing says you have to make the trip with them before they go solo. I usually go with them to POU first then have them do it solo. Then after they do POU on their own I let them choose where to do their long cross country and I just review the planning and cut them loose.
 
As a flatlander who didn't get lost on his XC solos:

PVT airports are probably not the best to use as landmarks. Pull them up on Google Earth sometime, they can be really hard to find. You could end up focusing so much on finding that airport that you forget to keep your eyes outside for traffic.

Check for tall antennae, railroad tracks, power lines, bridges, road intersections or bends.

Not sure about the CFI thing - mine wanted me to go to airports on routes that I'd never visited before.
 
1st Answer. The only requirement for a visual waypoint for a cross country is that it is easily identifiable from the air and, preferably, can be seen from some distance away. What those are ids not uniform. What is a great visual checkpoint is some parts of the country can be terrible in others. If your private airport is easily seen and identifiable, go for it. Many simply aren't due to their surroundings.

Easy example. I learned in the northeast and then moved to Colorado. In the northeast even small lakes make good checkpoints and powerlines are pretty much standard. In Colorado, those small lakes may be nothing but puddles with no similarity to what is depicted on the chart and, in the absence of the lunch forests of the northeast, powerlines are best seen when you are too damn close to them.

2nd Answer. No. It is not a requirement. Many CFIs will pre-fly at least part of the first solo cross country route on the dual cross country in order to give the student added confidence. But even for that it is not a requirement and many other CFIs don't bother.
 
Thanks guys for that quick response, essentially just validating what I already know is true. :/

I find PVT airstrips just fine, I practically grew up around them, can spot that easier than a D class in a city! lol ;) Not to mention if I am referencing the sec, a larger PVT with a noticeable color and circle is easier to find fast than a light grey thin line road!

Yes, I thought as much about the XC endorsement. Can't argue with corporate America however so ...:mad2:

However, shouldn't a PPL CFI be very aware of this NOT being FAA policy?!
 
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FastEddieB said:
What he said.

I fail to locate about 1 in 3 that my 496 or iPad show.
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During one of my diversion exercises my CFI pointed to a PVT and said, "Take us there."

Neither one of us could find it - we circled for quite a few minutes, probably right on top of it based on the sectional, but just couldn't make it out of the background vegetation. Later, I did find it on Google Earth - just a narrow strip in the middle of farm fields that was mowed shorter than the rest.
 
You can use anything that stands out visually for a waypoint. I agree with the other posters though, grass strips can be devilishly hard to find from the air.

The CFI does not have to go beforehand on the cross country. I actually flew out to have the door repaired on my airplane for mine.
 
Here's an example of the PVT strips I see around my neck of the woods.

This should be the view from a reasonable altitude, at a reasonable angle out the window, and pretty much within the circle defined on the sectional.

It's there.

I can't figure out how to do a "spoiler" thing, so I'll post later.
 

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Matthew said:
Here's an example of the PVT strips I see around my neck of the woods.

This should be the view from a reasonable altitude, at a reasonable angle out the window, and pretty much within the circle defined on the sectional.

It's there.

I can't figure out how to do a "spoiler" thing, so I'll post later.
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I think I see 5 landing strips, and two additional in case of trouble. How did I do?
 
masloki said:
I think I see 5 landing strips, and two additional in case of trouble. How did I do?
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Heh - this whole state is a landing strip.

But the only one shown on the sectional (if you were going to use it as a waypoint), is in the upper right quadrant, between the two parallel driveways. The upper driveway curves toward the top of the image.
 

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Lakes can make for some pretty good landmarks.

Same deal with big highways, streams and rivers, and especially where they cross.

Airports, especially in flat farm country, look a helluva lot like farms. And they can be very hard to spot unless you're on the extended runway centerline.

They are even harder to spot at night, even in the city.
 
Stink360 said:
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?
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Choosing "visual waypoints"? Is that now the preferred navigation terminology for checkpoints or landmarks?
 
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Matthew said:
Here's an example of the PVT strips I see around my neck of the woods.

This should be the view from a reasonable altitude, at a reasonable angle out the window, and pretty much within the circle defined on the sectional.

It's there.

I can't figure out how to do a "spoiler" thing, so I'll post later.
Click to expand...

My guess.... lower right quadrant?
 
MAKG1 said:
Lakes can make for some pretty good landmarks.

Same deal with big highways, streams and rivers, and especially where they cross.

Airports, especially in flat farm country, look a helluva lot like farms. And they can be very hard to spot unless you're on the extended runway centerline.

They are even harder to spot at night, even in the city.
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I used to think that until I flew up the road to Fairbanks. I was going to use a C-shaped lake until I realized that there are hundreds of them.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
I used to think that until I flew up the road to Fairbanks. I was going to use a C-shaped lake until I realized that there are hundreds of them.

Bob Gardner
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My CFI told me her story of learning to fly in Minnesota. Not only are there lots and lots of lakes that all look alike, it snowed the night before her checkride and all the frozen lakes ended up hidden under several inches of snow.
 
Stink360 said:
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?

2nd Question: I can not find this, and I don't think it exists, but I'll ask anyway to cover my ass ;) Before a student (PPL) goes out for their solo XC, is it required, by FAA standards, that the CFI have gone out with the student on that EXACT route before as a dual flight?

TIA everyone!
Click to expand...

Airports are fine...I would "fly" the route using Google Earth beforehand to see what is available. I have used the 200-foot-wide rights of way beneath high-tension lines as checkpoints all across the country. Best if the cross your path at a right angle, of course. They really stand out in the mountains or where there is a lot of agriculture. In the southwest, you can see similar areas marking pipelines, but buried and above ground. Wind turbine farms are becoming more prevalent on sectionals.

Get a copy of the Aeronautical Chart User's Guide for lots of good ideas.

Bob Gardner
 
Matthew said:
My CFI told me her story of learning to fly in Minnesota. Not only are there lots and lots of lakes that all look alike, it snowed the night before her checkride and all the frozen lakes ended up hidden under several inches of snow.
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I learned to fly in northern Minnesota too. On the first cross country I planned I used a couple of lakes as landmarks, since they appeared to have some obvious features to them when viewing them on the sectional chart. My instructor just laughed and said "I wouldn't have done that" but wouldn't tell me why. It was painfully obvious why when we went out and flew the route. There are a lot of lakes up there that are not charted and they all start looking the same.
 
bobmrg said:
I used to think that until I flew up the road to Fairbanks. I was going to use a C-shaped lake until I realized that there are hundreds of them.

Bob Gardner
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Well, yes, the permafrost makes for a really obvious exception. I'm surprised you can see the lakes for all the mosquitoes.

We can have IMC for clouds, smoke, or volcanic ash. In Alaska, they should have them for mosquito swarms.

It's the Alaskan state bird….
 
bobmrg said:
I used to think that until I flew up the road to Fairbanks. I was going to use a C-shaped lake until I realized that there are hundreds of them.

Bob Gardner
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Yea. Definitely depends where you are. If there is one lake every 20 miles, then it's a good checkpoint. When there is one every 2 miles, it might be wise to choose something else.
 
There's a reason they put even closed airports on the chart.
 
Agree with the advice to check out Google maps satellite image. Things that look prominent on the map are often hard to find in reality and vice versa.

One of my first realizations in my student X-country days... Frozen snow covered lakes look exactly the same as frozen snow covered fields! What stands out strongly in the summer maybe not so much come winter.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Things that look prominent on the map are often hard to find in reality and vice versa.
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Something I recall learning, and teaching...

In general, everything that's on a current sectional should be there on the ground somewhere - with exceptions, of course.

But do not expect everything on the ground to be represented on the chart. Many things that might seem prominent will not make their way onto charts.

So, don't panic if you're over a really obvious race track, but cannot find it on the chart. You may be exactly where you think you are, and no one thought to chart that track, or its new.
 
Stink360 said:
Yes, I thought as much about the XC endorsement. Can't argue with corporate America however so ...:mad2:

However, shouldn't a PPL CFI be very aware of this NOT being FAA policy?!
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Consider the possibility that your CFI was hedging his bet that you were fully ready for this xc solo.
 
Have you done any flights outside the practice area yet? If so, that's your chance to learn how to pick out landmarks and be aware of what your geography offers you. I always made a personal game of either looking a something on a sectional and then trying to spot it on the ground, or spotting something on the ground and then trying to find it on the sectional. Do that a few times and you'll have a pretty good idea of what landmarks will work best.
 
FastEddieB said:
Something I recall learning, and teaching...

In general, everything that's on a current sectional should be there on the ground somewhere - with exceptions, of course.

But do not expect everything on the ground to be represented on the chart. Many things that might seem prominent will not make their way onto charts.

So, don't panic if you're over a really obvious race track, but cannot find it on the chart. You may be exactly where you think you are, and no one thought to chart that track, or its new.
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Yeah, sectionals are a bit coarse for plotting every landmark.

TACs, on the other hand, are frighteningly detailed.

I did some of my CAP scanner training over the San Joaquin Delta, and quickly discovered that the TAC had every bend in every channel on it, every dock, every road, and every little bridge.
 
Stink360 said:
1st Question: Generally speaking, if out in the middle of nowhere and it being more flatland than forested, what are the thoughts on choosing PVT airports as visual waypoints?
Click to expand...

Whatever works and is easily to pick out.

Charts and cool, but for VFR ops take advantage of google earth and other aerial imagery stuff available too.


Stink360 said:
2nd Question: I can not find this, and I don't think it exists, but I'll ask anyway to cover my ass ;) Before a student (PPL) goes out for their solo XC, is it required, by FAA standards, that the CFI have gone out with the student on that EXACT route before as a dual flight?

TIA everyone!
Click to expand...

No, not required, but I'd question any CFI who didn't fly the XC dual first, at least for the first XC.

I've always flown the students route with them, than they turned and burned flying the same route solo.
 
James331 said:
Whatever works and is easily to pick out.

Charts and cool, but for VFR ops take advantage of google earth and other aerial imagery stuff available too.




No, not required, but I'd question any CFI who didn't fly the XC dual first, at least for the first XC.

I've always flown the students route with them, than they turned and burned flying the same route solo.
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For their very first cross country, I fly with my students. The first one is usually rough and they need a lot of help. The next time we do the x country I throw in a diversion. If they do fine with that one, I'll solo them. If they need more work we'll do a third flight. After I sign them off, I give them a choice of where they want to fly and I just review the planning and don't actually go on the flight.
 
More or less same here, I do let my guys plan all their own XCs, my only requirements are range and not blowing through a hot restricted or anything.

Never had to do more than two dual, two solo with my guys, well minus one time one of my students made record speed on a solo XC and came up a little short on solo XC time.
 
I'm trying to remember. I know my CFI and I did an XC together to airport Kaaa before any solo XC work, and maybe even before any solo at all.

I know I did a dual night XC to airport Kbbb, and then I did a solo daytime XC to Kbbb maybe even the next day. The CFI explanation behind doing it that way was, by doing the dual at night I wouldn't be able to memorize or recognize any VFR landmarks for navigation, but I WOULD be able to get familiar with the airport layout on the ground so I wouldn't get lost on the taxiway. That way when I went solo, it would be as if I had never flown to Kbbb before, but when I got there I wouldn't be overwhelmed by anything because I'd already spent time taxiing around. When I did my long solo XC I went to ccc, ddd, and and back and ccc/ddd were airports I'd never been to before.
 
Matthew said:
I'm trying to remember. I know my CFI and I did an XC together to airport Kaaa before any solo XC work, and maybe even before any solo at all.

I know I did a dual night XC to airport Kbbb, and then I did a solo daytime XC to Kbbb maybe even the next day. The CFI explanation behind doing it that way was, by doing the dual at night I wouldn't be able to memorize or recognize any VFR landmarks for navigation, but I WOULD be able to get familiar with the airport layout on the ground so I wouldn't get lost on the taxiway. That way when I went solo, it would be as if I had never flown to Kbbb before, but when I got there I wouldn't be overwhelmed by anything because I'd already spent time taxiing around. When I did my long solo XC I went to ccc, ddd, and and back and ccc/ddd were airports I'd never been to before.
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It doesn't actually work.

I did my night cross country to KSAC, which is a moderate maze of taxiways (there are much worse, but it's considerably more complex than the single-parallel where I trained), some of which are hard to identify in a sea of pavement. Except at night where the taxiway lights are real obvious.

So, when I went there in daytime for the first time, Ground told me to taxi to transient via A, and I went via B. They are close together and parallel, but B is used for outbound traffic. Fortunately, there wasn't any at the time, and Ground was understanding.

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1511/pdf/00358AD.PDF

Landings and takeoffs are almost always on 20. It's a little hard on a new pilot to get told to taxi via B M D and cross two runways, just to get to the run-up area. Even worse, C N D ('cause C is hard to identify).
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Yeah it does. Student Solo Requirements. His answer is in there by omission.
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WRONG.

If you are going to get all snarky and coy with responses like that, you could at least cite the relevant FAR (61.93 Solo cross-country flight requirements).

(b) Authorization to perform certain solo flights and cross-country flights. A student pilot must obtain an endorsement from an authorized instructor to make solo flights from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training to another location. A student pilot who receives this endorsement must comply with the requirements of this paragraph.
(1) Solo flights may be made to another airport that is within 25 nautical miles from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training, provided—
(i) An authorized instructor has given the student pilot flight training at the other airport, and that training includes flight in both directions over the route, entering and exiting the traffic pattern, and takeoffs and landings at the other airport;
(ii) The authorized instructor who gave the training endorses the student pilot's logbook authorizing the flight;
(iii) The student pilot has a solo flight endorsement in accordance with§ 61.87 of this part;
(iv) The authorized instructor has determined that the student pilot is proficient to make the flight; and
(v) The purpose of the flight is to practice takeoffs and landings at that other airport.
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Also
(c) Endorsements for solo cross-country flights. Except as specified in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, a student pilot must have the endorsements prescribed in this paragraph for each cross-country flight:
(1) Student pilot certificate endorsement. A student pilot must have a solo cross-country endorsement from the authorized instructor who conducted the training, and that endorsement must be placed on that person's student pilot certificate for the specific category of aircraft to be flown.
(2) Logbook endorsement.
(i) A student pilot must have a solo cross-country endorsement from an authorized instructor that is placed in the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(ii) For each cross-country flight, the authorized instructor who reviews the cross-country planning must make an endorsement in the person's logbook after reviewing that person's cross-country planning, as specified in paragraph (d) of this section. The endorsement must—
(A) Specify the make and model of aircraft to be flown;
(B) State that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions; and
(C) State that any limitations required by the student's authorized instructor are met.
(d) Limitations on authorized instructors to permit solo cross-country flights. An authorized instructor may not permit a student pilot to conduct a solo cross-country flight unless that instructor has:
(1) Determined that the student's cross-country planning is correct for the flight;
(2) Reviewed the current and forecast weather conditions and has determined that the flight can be completed under VFR;
(3) Determined that the student is proficient to conduct the flight safely;
(4) Determined that the student has the appropriate solo cross-country endorsement for the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and
(5) Determined that the student's solo flight endorsement is current for the make and model aircraft to be flown.
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So to answer the OP's second question, it depends on what he means by cross-country. If we are talking solo flight to another airport within 25 miles of home field, then yes, the CFI must have provided training along the route and at the destination airport. If we are talking the long solo cross-country, then no the CFI does not have to have previously flown the exact route with the student before signoff (although some CFI's do).
 
As far as OP's question 1, as with many things, the answer is "it depends".

As others have pointed out, in many parts of the country (out here on the east cost especially) the majority of PVT airports are not much more than a grass strip 1500-2000' long cut amidst a bunch of tall trees. They make very poor landmarks and can be challenging to find even with a GPS. Other PVT airfields can be much larger and out in the open.

If there is a well known and easily spotted private airstrip along your route and you are very confident that you would be able to spot it, then by all means, feel free to use it as a waypoint or landmark. I just wouldn't recommend selecting a PVT airport as a waypoint simply because it is on your sectional.
 
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