2-door, 4-passenger, under $35K. Yet another airplane thread.

jbrinker

jbrinker

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jbrinker
Still awaiting my medical (any day/week now I hope), but window shopping as I proceed though my PPL training. Hoping to take the checkride sometime this fall.

Mission: Build time, fly for fun, possibly finish my actual PPL training in, and get at least some IFR training (if not the actual rating). Occasional short (<4hr) trips with 4 people, 2 150lb adults and 2 125lb teens.

Currently training in a Cherokee 160, have also flown C172. Budget $35K. Under 30K would be even better.

So far I've found and "window shopped" a variety of:
C172 (obviously)
Piper cherokee/archer/etc.
Beechcraft Sundowner
Stinson 108
Piper Pacer / Tri-pacer

I *really* can't stand the one-door of the Cherokee/etc and many other low-wings. Hence the Sundowner consideration. The Stinson I had not even thought of until I read an old thread on here. Those seem like very interesting planes. Same with the Sundowner - many gripes about how slow they are - but just as many love the extra space, gross, and handling characteristics. C172 - the minivan of the airplane world. I like it just fine, just like I like a Dodge caravan just fine. But it's not too inspiring.

Things I think are important:
- 2 doors
- Reasonable cabin space for 4 slim adults.
- Reasonable gross for 4 slim adults.
- Handling characteristics - I'm going to be a new PPL and want an appropriate plane.
- Maintenance/etc - don't want to buy soemething thats known to have a lot of expensive maint issues/AD's etc.
- long term, I want to eventually buy my grandfather's Acro Sport II biplane, so getting somethign that is tailwheel might not be a bad idea. OTOH, not sure how much of any of these would translate well to a biplane.

Just looking for opinions and thoughts, and any others I may not have considered. I know from reading a lot of these threads that it all really comes down to the actual individual plane. But still fun to windows shop and compare to get ideas.
 
jbrinker said:
Still awaiting my medical (any day/week now I hope), but window shopping as I proceed though my PPL training. Hoping to take the checkride sometime this fall.

Mission: Build time, fly for fun, possibly finish my actual PPL training in, and get at least some IFR training (if not the actual rating). Occasional short (<4hr) trips with 4 people, 2 150lb adults and 2 125lb teens.

Currently training in a Cherokee 160, have also flown C172. Budget $35K. Under 30K would be even better.

So far I've found and "window shopped" a variety of:
C172 (obviously)
Piper cherokee/archer/etc.
Beechcraft Sundowner
Stinson 108
Piper Pacer / Tri-pacer

I *really* can't stand the one-door of the Cherokee/etc and many other low-wings. Hence the Sundowner consideration. The Stinson I had not even thought of until I read an old thread on here. Those seem like very interesting planes. Same with the Sundowner - many gripes about how slow they are - but just as many love the extra space, gross, and handling characteristics. C172 - the minivan of the airplane world. I like it just fine, just like I like a Dodge caravan just fine. But it's not too inspiring.

Things I think are important:
- 2 doors
- Reasonable cabin space for 4 slim adults.
- Reasonable gross for 4 slim adults.
- Handling characteristics - I'm going to be a new PPL and want an appropriate plane.
- Maintenance/etc - don't want to buy soemething thats known to have a lot of expensive maint issues/AD's etc.
- long term, I want to eventually buy my grandfather's Acro Sport II biplane, so getting somethign that is tailwheel might not be a bad idea. OTOH, not sure how much of any of these would translate well to a biplane.

Just looking for opinions and thoughts, and any others I may not have considered. I know from reading a lot of these threads that it all really comes down to the actual individual plane. But still fun to windows shop and compare to get ideas.
Click to expand...
I would throw a vote in for the Sundowner, although the GW with four adults will probably be a limitation. They are roomy and handle very nicely, and I've seen some really affordable prices on them.
 
That will be hard to do on a 35K budget. Remember, what ever you find you will need WAAS GPS and ADSB Out in 3 yrs.
 
How about zero doors like on a Grumman Cheetah?
 
Just for fun,,, some adverts I saw...
1979 BEECH C23 SUNDOWNER • $33,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • TTAF 3104, TSMO 173, Collins VHF-251 Com, Collins VIR-351 NAV, Collins AMR-350 Audio panel, Collins TDR-950 Transponder, King KN-62A DME, S-TEC Single Axis autopilot. • VISIT MY WEBSITE • Contact Albert J. Boring - DAVINAIR LLC, Broker - located Spanaway, WA USA • Telephone: 206-304-4178 . • Posted May 17, 2016 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures​
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1979 BEECH SUNDOWNER • $34,000 • NO REASONABLE OFFER REFUSED • Excellent 79 C23 Sundowner, low low tt, 2300, low smoh 450, Chrome spinner, good paint, 6.5-7, good interior, 7, NKDH, Rleft and Right side doors, hangared, great maintenance history. Garmin SL 30 Navcom, GX 55 GPS, Collins 351 and 251 nav and com. GTX 327 transponder. Polished spinner. Best buy for a Sundowner. Owner motivated • Contact Gary L. Estes - ESTES AVIATION LLC, Friend of Owner - located Vicksburg, MS USA • Telephone: 601-415-2455 . 601-636-2286 • Posted May 17, 2016 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures​
1x1.gif



​
 
Also, you MIGHT be able to talk down a Beechcraft Sierra as well. Those are two door and complex for if you want to go commercial.

There's one on controller, but it's out of your range.
 
I flew the Sundowner predecessor (Musketeer w/ 180hp) for a long time, and both of those Sundowners above seem to be very a good value. Full fuel you won't want to be hauling 4 adults, and watch your density altitude, but it's as good as any other "4-place" aircraft, and I prefer it over the 172's for sure. Trailing link gear is great, and it's a solid and fun flying machine.
 
I'd get a Cessna 172, one with the Lycoming engine. Two VORs, one with glideslope is all you need for IFR. Get your commercial in a rented retract. High power in a 182. It will hold value pretty well and no problm finding mechanics.
 
If the Acrosport/tailwheel inclination is serious, $35k might buy you a decent Cessna 170. As good a "4-place" as some of the others on the OP list.
 
Socata Tampico. 5' wide cabin, modernish avionics, slow but steady flyer. Have 160ish hours in mine and love it. Wish it were faster and had a better U/L, but it gets the job done.


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If you go the baby beech route, join the Beech Aero Club forum. Best $50 bucks I spent. Almost bought a Mousketeer before I sprung for the Socata.


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Thanks for all the opinions everyone - I've looked at both of those C23 ad's above - both look really decent on paper anyway. A local flying club here has a Socata as well, maybe I can get a look at it this weekend at the Syracuse airshow (if I go). Yes, I'm serious about the biplane, that's one of my major reasons for getting the PPL. (Plane is in my pic <--). So I do plan on getting some significant tailwheel time at some point here. Hence my thoughts about the Stinson. Looks like most C170 and all C180 are out of my range price/value wise. Whats the estimated cost of the ADS-B Out / GPS conversion going to be for all these older AC?
 
I have a 182 partnership you can join that isn't too far from you.
 
About 5k installed currently. I'd expect that to cut in half in the next 18-24 months


If you want more info on the Socata, feel free to shoot me a PM any time.
 
FlyBoyAndy said:
I have a 182 partnership you can join that isn't too far from you.
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(No affiliation with this post) Please consider this offer!!! After my first year of partnership I don't know if I would really want to own a plane all by myself. There's 4 of us in an arrow. There's only been 1 occasion where last minute I thought it'd be a fun day to go fly to see a partner had it booked.
Plus, when it comes to the annual/ other big expenses it's nice to be able to split the cost!
So even if you weren't looking at a 182 or think it's too big of a plane, at least look into this!
 
Might have been one of my old threads on the Stinson.

GREAT aircraft, I had mine for awhile and she did ecerything I asked of her, flew from coast to coast, plenty of backcountry and it really is a "if it fits it ships" type of plane with great ramp appeal, it is also one of the best air and ground handling aircraft I've flown and it plenty comfy inside.

The only aircraft that had what it took to get me to "upgrade" was my current A185F amphib, it's gotta tell you something when it takes a plane that costs as much as a house to make a upgrade out of the Stinson make any sense.

Also remember not everyone NEEDS ADSB, so keep that in mind too.
 
I too am in a partnership with three great people and love it. a great way to get more airplane for your money, mine allows me to have my 4 place wit good cruise, good avionics, and auto pilot; and my small aerobatic biplane at the same time.
 
James331 said:
Might have been one of my old threads on the Stinson.

GREAT aircraft, I had mine for awhile and she did ecerything I asked of her, flew from coast to coast, plenty of backcountry and it really is a "if it fits it ships" type of plane with great ramp appeal, it is also one of the best air and ground handling aircraft I've flown and it plenty comfy inside.

The only aircraft that had what it took to get me to "upgrade" was my current A185F amphib, it's gotta tell you something when it takes a plane that costs as much as a house to make a upgrade out of the Stinson make any sense.

Also remember not everyone NEEDS ADSB, so keep that in mind too.
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Reading the title of the thread without even reading the first post had me thinking Stinson 108 too. I agree with everything James wrote. The more time I get in a Stinson the more I like them.

There is one reason I wouldn't recommend one for the OP's situation though. These are vintage airplanes with limited support and that may not be the best fit for the first time owner/non-mechanic. Otherwise they're nice, comfortable, capable, and reasonably inexpensive airplanes.
 
Mine was my first plane, I did owner assist annuals and did learn from the ground up in tailwheel, that said the plane was a real sweetheart plane to me, no real Mx issues, between univiar and the Stinson yahoo ground I never had any parts or service issues, really don't have a single bad thing to say about the S108, take good care of them and they will take good care of you.
 
 
 
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I bought into a 182 club for $3.5k; how many hours per year are you planning on flying?
 
The Navion, like the grumman is a zero door plane (doors are for barns).

You're not probably going to find any of the ones on your list are legitimate four seaters. You might try the Cessna Cardinal.
 
flyingron said:
The Navion, like the grumman is a zero door plane (doors are for barns).

You're not probably going to find any of the ones on your list are legitimate four seaters. You might try the Cessna Cardinal.
Click to expand...

A S108 is a 4 seater every day of the week and twice on Sunday's.
 
There's a 2007 182T down here in FL, G1000 with I think an $8,500 buy-in...friend of mine has a share, but I'd rather spend half that or less on a down payment for a loan on a Cherokee or somethin'. That's waaaay too much airplane for me.
 
I just replied to flyboyandy about the partnership, I'm curious where the plane is based and all the details. That's a whole other thread I'd like to start (maybe it could eventually qualify for sticky status) about partnerships, how they work, and what to look for (Edit - I dont know that stuff, meaning that would be a great FAQ). I have to admit, I'm kinda drawn to the old Stinson 108's. Really nice looking plane, and seemingly cheap for what you get. And slow or not for a low wing I really like the Beech Sundowner too... Oh and I love the C177 Cardinal, but good luck finding one in that price range (maybe a run-out 150HP)

I'm a very mechanical guy (I.e. have rebuilt cars, engines, boats, small structures, helped build the Acro back in the 80's, etc) and a totally DIY kinda guy (considered building an experimental but would rather fly...) so if I could find an A&P to work with (My current instructor is one) I could probably do a lot of maint on any of these aircraft with some supervision.

Speaking of partnerships - What is the best way to find them? Post an ad at the local airports? Seems like a lot of local airplane owners (at the small airports) are off the grid. Especially the more occasional fliers who might be interested in that sort of thing.
 
jbrinker said:
Speaking of partnerships - What is the best way to find them? Post an ad at the local airports? Seems like a lot of local airplane owners (at the small airports) are off the grid. Especially the more occasional fliers who might be interested in that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I found mine through my cfi. So on top of looking at ads at fbo's ask some of the cfi's. Even ask some A&P's. I I was in the middle of a pre-buy on a different arrow and the mechanic said he had worked on the partnership arrow I'm in now and suggested I talk to them.
Cfi's and mechanics are probably the people who knows the most about all the planes on any field (well except for the old retired guys, but more than likely they fit into those 2 categories hahaha).
 
Paid 38K for my 1962 C-182. It'll do everything you mentioned pretty darn well. Plenty easy to fly for a newb. If you're patient, you could probably find one for yourself in the neighborhood of your stated budget. It won't be a show piece, but if you don't have to have a pristine bird, it can be done. Mine is a bit of an ugly duckling up close, but not bad from 20 ft, interior is pretty dated, but it has less than 2000 hours TT, about 600 SMOH, and will do everything a really pretty one will do. 1100 lb. useful load, 145 mph on about 11.8 gph. Not saying that's what you gotta have, but it might be an option if you want something heavier on utility and lighter on looks ;)
 
With 4 adults, luggage and fuel the 172 will be pushing it. If you like the idea of the 172 consider a jump to a 182. Although for 35k or less, a decent "ready to fly" aircraft could he hard to come by. Most for that price, will have high engine times or past tbo. Keep an eye on controller and tradeaplane. Good luck!
 
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