1977 182Q

[ICUDoc]

I'm interested in this plane:

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=156780&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=16487002&dealerid=

Any input regarding this particular model / year / engine / avionics appreciated.

I have done most of my training in a DA20 and a TB9.

-=ICUDOC

 

[jtheune]

I have a 77 q model and like it a lot. I am suspecious of a plane with a factory new engine being sold with zero hours. It's possible they put the engine in and ran out of money. Looks a little weak on avionics but that does give you the opportunity to put in what you want.

 

[Brad Z]

New engine and low time, but it seems a bit pricy for a 182 with original interior, paint, and outdated avionics. If it had a run-out engine you'd be looking at a $60k specimen, based on presumed condition and TT. That values the new engine at $55k. Could be a good candidate for an spinner to tail makeover, but you'll want to negotiate accordingly.

 

[JOhnH]

New engine and low time, but it seems a bit pricy for a 182 with original interior, paint, and outdated avionics. If it had a run-out engine you'd be looking at a $60k specimen, based on presumed condition and TT. That values the new engine at $55k. Could be a good candidate for an spinner to tail makeover, but you'll want to negotiate accordingly.

I agree completely with this. I'd want to knock at least $20-30k or more off the price, and that would only be if I was prepared to put more $$ into the panel and some cosmetic work. But that is just me.

 

[ICUDoc]

I agree completely with this. I'd want to knock at least $20-30k or more off the price, and that would only be if I was prepared to put more $$ into the panel and some cosmetic work. But that is just me.

That sounds reasonable. I'd expect the airframe to be in excellent condition based on the ad. Would like to add a panel with GTN 750 + STEC (or maybe the new Garmin AP?) with coupled approaches, synthetic vision and TAS. It's equipped with a 2 axis AP so maybe that would decrease the mods required in the wings. An engine monitor with CHTs etc would be nice as well.

There are worse ways to die than by Bonanza Lol.

 

[Alexb2000]

I would NEVER entertain a restoration or upgrade project in this market. Any money you spend will lose 50% the day you write the check. Not to mention that these projects can span months or years with many of the expenses of flying and none of the benefits. I would find an aircraft setup as close to the way that I wanted as possible even if that came at a premium. Then MAYBE I'd do one or two small changes to meet my needs.

However, that aircraft would be the perfect candidate for a Peterson Katmai conversion with the low time and clean airframe if someone was prepared to spend that kind of money.

 

[Henning]

Pricey for the panel, as for everything else, have to see it to judge condition, but even in excellent condition, I think it's over priced as equipped.

 

[Henning]

I would NEVER entertain a restoration or upgrade project in this market. Any money you spend will lose 50% the day you write the check. Not to mention that these projects can span months or years with many of the expenses of flying and none of the benefits. I would find an aircraft setup as close to the way that I wanted as possible even if that came at a premium. Then MAYBE I'd do one or two small changes to meet my needs.

However, that aircraft would be the perfect candidate for a Peterson Katmai conversion with the low time and clean airframe if someone was prepared to spend that kind of money.

Perfect candidate would have a run out engine, although the 230SE conversion is only 1/3rd of the price.

 

[Stewartb]

Low time airframe, no damage history, zero time engine? Those are what many guys are looking for. I suspect somebody will gobble it up and smile that they did.

 

[Henning]

Low time airframe, no damage history, zero time engine? Those are what many guys are looking for. I suspect somebody will gobble it up and smile that they did.

I agree, and it'll happen around $20k cheaper than in the ad, because that is what the market dictates.

 

[Brad Z]

I would NEVER entertain a restoration or upgrade project in this market. Any money you spend will lose 50% the day you write the check. Not to mention that these projects can span months or years with many of the expenses of flying and none of the benefits. I would find an aircraft setup as close to the way that I wanted as possible even if that came at a premium. Then MAYBE I'd do one or two small changes to meet my needs.

However, that aircraft would be the perfect candidate for a Peterson Katmai conversion with the low time and clean airframe if someone was prepared to spend that kind of money.

It doesn't sound like the OPs trying to flip it---just have a nice plane. folks look for a low time airframe and the give it the AOPA sweepstakes treatment. $20k paint and corrosion treatment, $15k interior, $70k panel, and you have a like new TAA for $200k.

Question is whether you want to spend that money on a 182 or a 210. This really needs to be a long term plane.

As for price, a lot of the value rests on the condition of the airframe, and the value of the engine depends on the warrantee...ie is it still covered?

 

[Henning]

It doesn't sound like the OPs trying to flip it---just have a nice plane. folks look for a low time airframe and the give it the AOPA sweepstakes treatment. $20k paint and corrosion treatment, $15k interior, $70k panel, and you have a like new TAA for $200k.

Question is whether you want to spend that money on a 182 or a 210. This really needs to be a long term plane.

As for price, a lot of the value rests on the condition of the airframe, and the value of the engine depends on the warrantee...ie is it still covered?

Except you can now buy a factory G-1000 182 for less, that you end up with a Lycoming rather than a Continental is another issue though.

 

[James331]

$110k. Wow

I'd say that's a 70-80k plane tops. Between the majorly lacking panel and the pimp wagon red interior there is no way you should pay over a 100k for that thing.

For over 100k, I'd expect full leather, full glass panel, new three blade prop, STOL, 10/10 everywhere, beautiful pearl paint job, high end newer autopilot with GPSS with the ability to shoot a fully coupled approach, light weight started etc etc

OR, what the smart folks would do for that money is just get a 210.

 

[Alexb2000]

It doesn't sound like the OPs trying to flip it---just have a nice plane. folks look for a low time airframe and the give it the AOPA sweepstakes treatment. $20k paint and corrosion treatment, $15k interior, $70k panel, and you have a like new TAA for $200k.

Question is whether you want to spend that money on a 182 or a 210. This really needs to be a long term plane.

As for price, a lot of the value rests on the condition of the airframe, and the value of the engine depends on the warrantee...ie is it still covered?

Fair comment. I think the AOPA thing is marketing vs. a sensible aircraft purchase. I would take the $200K budget and compare what I could got get without the 6-9 month project time. Here is a 30 second example:

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SKYLANE/2004-CESSNA-182T-SKYLANE/1354307.htm

My concern would be the next buyer even if I didn't plan to sell, life happens. It is much easier for someone to finance a newer aircraft within book value vs. an older restoration well above.

 

[N747JB]

I have the twin to it, but it now has 2500 hours and 500 on reman and prop. Pretty much the same avionics, mine has been repainted and it's not the greatest in the world, but it looks good. I thought the KX155's would be fine with a handheld, that lasted about 6 months, I put a 430W in it, right as the 650's were being introduced! I later swapped it for the 530W out of my Conquest.
A word about the interior, while the seats don't have a lot of hours on them, the foam padding will be shot and your butt will feel like you are riding on the steel seat frames after an hour or two.
It's a pretty airplane, but I think it's overpriced, by the time you upgrade the avionics even a little, you will be over $140K, a little more and you can buy a late 90's one.

 

[ICUDoc]

It doesn't sound like the OPs trying to flip it---just have a nice plane. folks look for a low time airframe and the give it the AOPA sweepstakes treatment. $20k paint and corrosion treatment, $15k interior, $70k panel, and you have a like new TAA for $200k.

Question is whether you want to spend that money on a 182 or a 210. This really needs to be a long term plane.

As for price, a lot of the value rests on the condition of the airframe, and the value of the engine depends on the warrantee...ie is it still covered?

That's correct I'm not planning to flip a plane. I'm a low-time pilot (~200 hr) who needs experience. As per above I might be best-served to buy a plane and fly as is then upgrade to a newer plane.

Except you can now buy a factory G-1000 182 for less, that you end up with a Lycoming rather than a Continental is another issue though.

What is the issue w/ Lycoming v Continental in this case ?

 

[James331]

Both good engines, personally if you have this much money for your first plane, you should be looking at IO520 and IO550 powered aircraft.

For 100+ thousand I don't understand why you even want a overblown 172, you could easily step into a C210, which is the grown up version of the 182, carry a good amount of weight, travel fast, etc

I'd also look at the experiental market, and if your skills are up to it look at tailwheel planes as well.

 

[Henning]

That's correct I'm not planning to flip a plane. I'm a low-time pilot (~200 hr) who needs experience. As per above I might be best-served to buy a plane and fly as is then upgrade to a newer plane.




What is the issue w/ Lycoming v Continental in this case ?

No great issue really, especially with carbed engines. More of a Ford v Chevy thing. Personally I think the Continental 470 is one of the best value engines in GA, but it's the IO series engines where I really prefer a Continental due to the boost pump being able to run the engine when the primary pump fails (that's why they have 2 speeds, and if you have a running engine and turn the pump on High, you'll kill it), and they are so much less temperamental to get a hot start on.

"Upgrading" is horribly expensive whether you upgrade your old plane, or up grade to a new plane. The market is down, buy the most plane you can right here ff the bat.

 

[Henning]

Both good engines, personally if you have this much money for your first plane, you should be looking at IO520 and IO550 powered aircraft.

For 100+ thousand I don't understand why you even want a overblown 172, you could easily step into a C210, which is the grown up version of the 182, carry a good amount of weight, travel fast, etc

I'd also look at the experiental market, and if your skills are up to it look at tailwheel planes as well.

For a $100k you can have a damned nice Bonanza.

 

[Stewartb]

Doc, don't let him confuse you. The 0-470 doesn't have or need a fuel pump.

Textron owns Cessna and Lycoming. They didn't used to but when Cessna re-entered the 182/206 market they converted those TCs from Continental power to Lycoming power. It was a business decision, not a performance issue.

 

[Henning]

Doc, don't let him confuse you. The 0-470 doesn't have or need a fuel pump.

Textron owns Cessna and Lycoming. They didn't used to but when Cessna re-entered the 182/206 market they converted those TCs from Continental power to Lycoming power. It was a business decision, not a performance issue.

Correct, the 182 uses a carb in either version. I still prefer the Continental, but it is strictly minor preference issues and I have owned Lycomings in the past as well.

 

[James331]

For a $100k you can have a damned nice Bonanza.

You see the guys handle Henning? Wouldn't want to be that cliche

Buy yeah, a Bo, Mooney, C210, super decked out PA24, lancair, would be way more bang for the buck.

 

[Henning]

You see the guys handle Henning? Wouldn't want to be that cliche

Buy yeah, a Bo, Mooney, C210, super decked out PA24, lancair, would be way more bang for the buck.

But that title has been handed to the SR-22, no?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

As others have said, that price is way too high.

'77Q 182's are great planes, but I'm more than a little biased in that opinion.

I don't know what they were thinking putting in a new engine and trying to sell it right away with zero other upgrades.

If the airframe is as clean as it should be with those low hours, this one should have been sold to Peterson's with the runout engine for a Katmai conversion.

 

[Henning]

As others have said, that price is way too high.

I don't know what they were thinking putting in a new engine and trying to sell it right away with zero other upgrades.

If the airframe is as clean as it should be with those low hours, this one should have been sold to Peterson's for a Katmai conversion.

At $55-60k with a run out engine. Although selling a '0' SFRM engine shouldn't be difficult to get good money from.

 

[N747JB]

I would rather buy a plane with a low to mid-time engine and not pay the super premium for a 0 SMOH engine. In 3 or 4 years, you will get more of your purchase price back on a one you bought with the low to mid-time engine. Also, this one needs avionics badly to be worth $100K! Again, I would rather pay a lot less for a 3000 hour airframe, it's not a museum piece.
Here's a 2000 model for 179K
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-SKYLANE/2000-CESSNA-182S-SKYLANE/1346135.htm

As others have said, that price is way too high.

'77Q 182's are great planes, but I'm more than a little biased in that opinion.

I don't know what they were thinking putting in a new engine and trying to sell it right away with zero other upgrades.

If the airframe is as clean as it should be with those low hours, this one should have been sold to Peterson's with the runout engine for a Katmai conversion.

 

[asicer]

Correct, the 182 uses a carb in either version. I still prefer the Continental, but it is strictly minor preference issues and I have owned Lycomings in the past as well.

The Lycoming in post-1997 182's (182S and 182T) are fuel injected. Ditto post-1998 172's.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Again, I would rather pay a lot less for a 3000 hour airframe, it's not a museum piece.

Exactly, which is why this plane had it maximum value without the new engine, being sold to a company that would do a full-on revamp of the plane into something better-than-new. That is the only real value when looking at a super low-time airframe.

It's also possible this thing is corrosion bucket, if it spent much time near a coastline just sitting in a hangar without anti-corrosion treatment. Years take their toll on unprotected airframes at least as much as hours-flown.

 

[ICUDoc]

Both good engines, personally if you have this much money for your first plane, you should be looking at IO520 and IO550 powered aircraft.

For 100+ thousand I don't understand why you even want a overblown 172, you could easily step into a C210, which is the grown up version of the 182, carry a good amount of weight, travel fast, etc

I'd also look at the experiental market, and if your skills are up to it look at tailwheel planes as well.

I don't really need as much plane as a 210 to get the experience I need. Flying a little slower would equate to more time logged. I'll be flying 100-200 nm from time to time for work but primarily time building. Maybe up with a friend from time to time. The real decision point will be when / if I can get my wife on board. At that point I'll move to something like a new(er) DA40 or even up to an SR2*. "Princess" wouldn't put up with a 70s-ish VW kind of interior.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

At $55-60k with a run out engine. Although selling a '0' SFRM engine shouldn't be difficult to get good money from.

Agreed. At least it is a factory job, not a field OH that could leave a buyer guessing about the quality.

If the paint is still in serviceable condition (i.e., not peeling anywhere), then maybe $77K, tops with the 0-time engine. They can't expect to get all that money back on the sale.

They're upside down on this. Best option may be to put the plane in an LLC and a leaseback. At least with the original paint and interior, you don't have to worry much a renter messing it up. Renters are also more tolerant of older avionics.

 

[ICUDoc]

Agreed. At least it is a factory job, not a field OH that could leave a buyer guessing about the quality.

If the paint is still in serviceable condition (i.e., not peeling anywhere), then maybe $77K, tops with the 0-time engine. They can't expect to get all that money back on the sale.

They're upside down on this. Best option may be to put the plane in an LLC and a leaseback. At least with the original paint and interior, you don't have to worry much a renter messing it up. Renters are also more tolerant of older avionics.

It would be sad thing IMO to see a plane this nice go to lease back. Maybe folks at your airport are kinder to rental planes than the ones at mine. 77K sounds like a pretty fair deal compared to the 16 others I saw online. I sent an inquiry to the sellers a few minutes ago. I might ask someone to look at it with me if I go up there.

 

[Stewartb]

It'll sell. Probably sooner than later. That red interior isn't a fav but changing the interior is pretty simple. The panel's way good enough for a low time guy. New bladders, new engine. If the airframe inspects as one would expect for a hangared low time airplane this may be a sweet deal. Good bones and a manageable project list. Good luck whatever you do.

 

[N747JB]

I think it's worth more than $77K! Maybe $85-90K, but again it would still need a GPS for ME anyway. I would imagine a low time pilot might want the GPS more than me.
I paid $63K for mine, put a 430W in it, replaced the side windows and redid the interior the first year. Other than one bladder and an alternator, I haven't done much to it since 2010.

Agreed. At least it is a factory job, not a field OH that could leave a buyer guessing about the quality.

If the paint is still in serviceable condition (i.e., not peeling anywhere), then maybe $77K, tops with the 0-time engine. They can't expect to get all that money back on the sale.

They're upside down on this. Best option may be to put the plane in an LLC and a leaseback. At least with the original paint and interior, you don't have to worry much a renter messing it up. Renters are also more tolerant of older avionics.

 

[Henning]

The Lycoming in post-1997 182's (182S and 182T) are fuel injected. Ditto post-1998 172's.

Really, they went FI on the 230hp engine, interesting. It will help out the people who want to fly LOP, that's for sure. Lycoming's Bendix FI is a bit of a PITA on hot start, but otherwise good.

 

[Alexb2000]

Really, they went FI on the 230hp engine, interesting. It will help out the people who want to fly LOP, that's for sure. Lycoming's Bendix FI is a bit of a PITA on hot start, but otherwise good.

It also helps people that don't want to deal with 182 carb ice.

 

[Henning]

I don't really need as much plane as a 210 to get the experience I need. Flying a little slower would equate to more time logged. I'll be flying 100-200 nm from time to time for work but primarily time building. Maybe up with a friend from time to time. The real decision point will be when / if I can get my wife on board. At that point I'll move to something like a new(er) DA40 or even up to an SR2*. "Princess" wouldn't put up with a 70s-ish VW kind of interior.

"Time building" for what purpose? Are you looking to build ratings and hours for a pro pilot transition, or are you looking to build time for experience and insurance? If the former, fine plan, if it is the later, it is a poor plan. For the later if you want to be in a Cirrus because that's what Princess will ride in, then you may as well move into the Cirrus right now. If you think the SR-22 is too much (I don't agree), then the SR-20 is available as a transition trainer that may actually satisfy your long term needs.

 

[Alexb2000]

"Time building" for what purpose? Are you looking to build ratings and hours for a pro pilot transition, or are you looking to build time for experience and insurance? If the former, fine plan, if it is the later, it is a poor plan. For the later if you want to be in a Cirrus because that's what Princess will ride in, then you may as well move into the Cirrus right now. If you think the SR-22 is too much (I don't agree), then the SR-20 is available as a transition trainer that may actually satisfy your long term needs.

Agreed NEVER buy a transition plane if you can help it.

 

[James331]

Well I totally missed the fact that's its a carbed engine, pass x100.

For that much I'd want fuel injection.

Also keep in mind that it's currently at the most likely time for a engine failure, you'd be safer buying a 400SMOH engine


And agreed with the others, just buy the plane you ultimately want off the bat I you can.

When you sell this overpriced 182 to buy that Cirrus, you're going to take a bath on it.

 

[Henning]

Well I totally missed the fact that's its a carbed engine, pass x100.

For that much I'd want fuel injection.

Also keep in mind that it's currently at the most likely time for a engine failure, you'd be safer buying a 400SMOH engine


And agreed with the others, just buy the plane you ultimately want off the bat I you can.

When you sell this overpriced 182 to buy that Cirrus, you're going to take a bath on it.

Hard bath...

 

[Henning]

I think it's worth more than $77K! Maybe $85-90K, but again it would still need a GPS for ME anyway. I would imagine a low time pilot might want the GPS more than me.
I paid $63K for mine, put a 430W in it, replaced the side windows and redid the interior the first year. Other than one bladder and an alternator, I haven't done much to it since 2010.

I agree, it would be worth $85k with a 750, and $115 with a 750 and G-500.