1969 Cherokee 140 Shoulder harness install

[RonP]

I have a 1969 Cherokee 140 with only seat belts and no shoulder harnesses. I would like to add front shoulder harnesses. Has anyone had this done? About how much did it cost total (parts and labor)? Any structural mods needed to the attachment point? Is there an STC to do this?

 

[James331]

I have a 1969 Cherokee 140 with only seat belts and no shoulder harnesses. I would like to add front shoulder harnesses. Has anyone had this done? About how much did it cost total (parts and labor)? Any structural mods needed to the attachment point? Is there an STC to do this?

https://basinc-aeromod.com/piper.php

 

[murphey]

check with wag-aero. usually required a doubler x 2 in the ceiling for attachments

 

[Dan Thomas]

Here: http://alphaaviation.com/belts-new-install-stc/piper/piper-pa-28-32/

 

[Red Rider]

Check out the Kosola and Associates STC (SA 02454AT) for an inertia reel installation. It is virtually indistinguishable from a factory setup. I want to say it was close to $3K or so for the front seats but well worth every penny.

 

[Raymo]

I installed the BAS system in my '65 140. Took about 8 hrs and, yes, there is an STC and 337 to file. You'll attach brackets in the ceiling where the shoulder harnesses mount. I went with the rotary buckles, so I had about $1800 in the purchase price.

 

[simtech]

I installed the wag-aero version in my 180. I did the work myself with IA oversight. I like having them. Are they perfect, no but they make me feel safer. Do it no matter what kind you get!

 

[Mike W.]

I installed the BAS system in my '65 140. Took about 8 hrs and, yes, there is an STC and 337 to file. You'll attach brackets in the ceiling where the shoulder harnesses mount. I went with the rotary buckles, so I had about $1800 in the purchase price.

Any chance you have the install instructions. I know a person that is parting-out a Cherokee 140 that has these installed...but he doesn't have the instructions. I don't want to invest the money if I can't install them. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[DrBlackrose]

I just had BAS harnesses installed 7 days ago
The harnesses were right at $1700 and my A&P installed for $450.

 

[unsafervguy]

Any chance you have the install instructions. I know a person that is parting-out a Cherokee 140 that has these installed...but he doesn't have the instructions. I don't want to invest the money if I can't install them. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

most STC's are sold for a single serial number and are not transferable without the permission of the STC owner. so if you were to purchase them from the person parting out his aircraft and install them in yours the STC would not be valid and the aircraft would be un-airworthy.

 

[3393RP]

This isn't a happy story, but it illustrates the value of harnesses. Many years ago I was driving south of the old Andrau Airpark in West Houston, and saw a Cherokee at a low altitude with no power and going down. I raced through some subdivision streets, and found the aircraft at the edge of a big school field. It had almost made the field, but came up a little short and impacted the embankment of a large drainage ditch.

There were other vehicles there, and a small fire had started around the cowling. I ran with a couple other guys to the plane, and try as I might, couldn't get close to the door because the fire was spreading. I could see the pilot slumped over unconscious.

He died at the scene. I was torn up, being close but unable to help. I found out later the autopsy showed a non-fatal head injury, and he had sooting in his lungs.

In other words, during the impact he hit the panel, it knocked him out, and the fire killed him.

The shoulder harnesses can save your life.

 

[bflynn]

most STC's are sold for a single serial number and are not transferable without the permission of the STC owner. so if you were to purchase them from the person parting out his aircraft and install them in yours the STC would not be valid and the aircraft would be un-airworthy.

Not necessarily true. You might be in violation of their sales license, but that is a legal issue about sales licenses. I'm not sure of the company's power to dictate the use of their product after the original owner purchases it.

Because they have recognized the importance of shoulder harnesses to safety, the FAA changed the policy on the upgrades of shoulder harnesses. A shoulder harness system can be installed in the OP's airplane (pre 1986, no shoulder harness) without a STC via FSDO field approval on a 337. If a particular system was already approved for installation in the type via STC and requires no engineering, this might even be installable as a minor change.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/media/shoulderpolicy.pdf
The description of the process for field approval is on page 12 or as a minor change on page 14.

There's even mention in this document of automobile 5 point racing harnesses and how to install them. That how important the FAA considers safety harnesses.

 

[Bell206]

'm not sure of the company's power to dictate the use of their product after the original owner purchases it.

While I don't know what you mean by "sales license," the use of an STC procedure/part is dictated by regulation per 91.403(d) and requires the the person using the STC to either be the holder of the STC or have written permission from the holder to use it. So without such STC permission the aircraft would be considered unairworthy as mentioned above.

FYI: if a person bought or salvaged all the same parts listed under a STC, obtained their own separate FAA approval/acceptance, and signed-off the installation per this new approval/acceptance, then that would not be contrary to 91.403(d). But before going that route I would check to see how much the STC permission letter would cost especially if airframe structural alterations are required to install the harness.

 

[bflynn]

An owner who buys the pieces from a parted out airplane is doing exactly what you described in the second paragraph. They are not implementing a STC, so 91.403 doesn't apply.

But there's no installation instructions, so it's a long shot that this could work.

 

[Bell206]

But there's no installation instructions, so it's a long shot that this could work.

Why not? He calls up the harness STC holder and states he salvaged all the parts from aircraft S/N 1234 and he wants to install them on aircraft S/N 5678. STC holder says for $300 I'll send you the permission letter for 5678 which comes with the data package, i.e., installation instructions. Have done this route a number of times. Have also assisted in the other route of using existing parts and obtaining a separate FAA approval or acceptance. In this route the installer develops the "installation instructions" on the 337 or logbook entry which ever is applicable. So in my experience it's definitely doable.

 

[Mike W.]

Thanks for the reply. In this case he did and they refuse to supply a permission letter or instructions. They don't want to deal with the liability, which I can understand. It looks like I will need to buy something else.

 

[unsafervguy]

Not necessarily true. You might be in violation of their sales license, but that is a legal issue about sales licenses. I'm not sure of the company's power to dictate the use of their product after the original owner purchases it.

Because they have recognized the importance of shoulder harnesses to safety, the FAA changed the policy on the upgrades of shoulder harnesses. A shoulder harness system can be installed in the OP's airplane (pre 1986, no shoulder harness) without a STC via FSDO field approval on a 337. If a particular system was already approved for installation in the type via STC and requires no engineering, this might even be installable as a minor change.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/media/shoulderpolicy.pdf
The description of the process for field approval is on page 12 or as a minor change on page 14.

There's even mention in this document of automobile 5 point racing harnesses and how to install them. That how important the FAA considers safety harnesses.

as usual, bell hit it right on,
as to the policy statement you quoted.

The FAA is presenting this information as a set of guidelines suitable foruse. However, we do not intend that this policy set up a binding norm; it does notform a new regulation and the FAA would not apply or rely on it as a regulation.

The FAA does not encourage the approval of retrofit shoulder harnessinstallations as minor changes. The preferred methods of approval areSupplemental Type Certificate or Field Approval.

A retrofit shoulder harness installation may receive approval as a minor change in these small airplanes if:
3The installation requires no change of the structure (such as welding or drilling holes).

since the installation in a PA-28 requires brackets to be installed in the ceiling, it will not be a minor change and that means a 337,field approval, and "approved" data to the FAA. you could use the information in the stc to supporting data in the installation, but it will most likely require a DER review to get that field approval, if you can in your FSDO. some are better than others.

as to using automotive racing belts, it also say this.

We also agree that we should allow minor change installations that use non-TSO-C114 harnesses.However, apart from TSO-C114 harnesses, we will accept only those meet the Society of Automotive Engineers Aerospace Standard 8043,harnesses produced under a Parts Manufacturer Approval (PMA) or harnesses that meet aircraft military specification requirements. We have revised the polic ystatement to include these other harnesses

so yes you can use one, as long as the manufacture has done the work to get PMA approval from the FAA. then again, you are still looking at getting the "approved" data to install them in the aircraft.

so,as bell206 and I stated, you cannot just use the parts from and STC'd aircraft in your aircraft and call it good. you either need to buy the STC or get the engineering work approved so you can go the field approval route.

 

[bflynn]

I think we’re saying the same thing.

If you’re buying parts you don’t have an STC, but you do have an engineered solution.

I don’t know the details of any STC for a Cherokee, but I agree that if you have to cut into the hull for mount points, that is never minor. In some cases, there is existing support structures which you can wrap around, so no cuts.

 

[mandm]

Reviving this thread.

Does anyone who added shoulder harness preferably in a PA28 model care to share some photos, starting to consider this but want to see what the options are.

Also any photos on the install or the hull where the mounts go? (Curious how many screws / rivets or whatever it uses)

And what does a field approval or 337 mean? Does this mean your mechanic approved the install and is sending paperwork to the FAA or does this mean someone from the FAA is coming to your hangar to check the work done? Or?

 

[Bell206]

And what does a field approval or 337 mean?

It refers to the procedure and documentation requirements if the shoulder harness installation is considered a major alteration. The field approval will require the local FSDO to approve your installation data and the 337 will require a mechanic with an IA to sign the 337 for the aircraft approval to return to service.

Not current info, but in the past for most owners installing STC'd shoulder harnesses was more cost efficient than going the field approval route. Don't know the current prices but recall around $1500 for both front seats on your average Piper for an STC kit. But some cost more.

 

[TheBadgerPilot]

Bumping this one up again... is there any data out there about one being more effective than another? Anecdotally, it seems the BAS would offer more support and protection relative to the Alpha Aviation. The price point seems to indicate that, as well.

I've used the BAS Utility style and both Alpha Aviation styles before. Maybe I'm answering my own question here, but I've found the Alpha Aviation will occasionally become unintentionally disconnected where the shoulder strap meets the buckle, either from moving around, reaching for the trim wheel, etc. The design of the BAS seems to prevent that from happening. But do they pretty much perform the same in the event of a crash?

I'd also be interested in hearing what people's experience has been as far as hours of labor.