1969 Cherokee 140 cruise speed??

jmarine225

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Jmarine225
So i'm onto a new thing with this recent purchase. For some reason, it seems as though the airspeed is quite low at cruise at around 2400 rpm. It has the 160hp engine installed in it and no issues with the engine at all, really good compressions. Upon levelling off at cruise altitude it seems the airspeed indicator only shows 90-100 on a good day. Tonights flight, foreflight showed cruise around 110 knots. Air was smooth as glass and the weather reports also didn't provide a 20 know tailwind. Any thoughts on this??
 
What was your cruise altitude? What does the POH say it should do?
 
I have a 1968 Cherokee 140 with the 160 HP Lycon conversion, no gap seals, and don’t have my wheelpants on. I am not usually in a hurry to get anywhere so I run lean at the top of the green. 110-115 kts is normal ForeFlight groundspeed at 5-6,000'. Airspeed indicator is rarely more than 110 MPH.

Using the rule of thumb, 2% per thousand feet actual vs indicated, this roughly agrees with groundspeed.
 
I have a 1968 Cherokee 140 with the 160 HP Lycon conversion, no gap seals, and don’t have my wheelpants on. I am not usually in a hurry to get anywhere so I run lean at the top of the green. 110-115 kts is normal ForeFlight groundspeed at 5-6,000'. Airspeed indicator is rarely more than 110 MPH...

:yeahthat:

My 1961 Cherokee 160 was similar...no wheelpants, between 100 and 110 miles per hour indicated in level cruise.
 
..a brisk walk

Your observations are typical.. this was 2-3 weeks ago in an Archer III.. these basic trainers were never accused of being fast

IMG_20200801_134542.jpg
 
^10-15 knot headwind .. way back in the same corridor sure around 125 gs
 
110 sounds about right. Some are rigged better, some are worse. Sounds like your ASI may be a bit off. Have your mechanic send it out for calibration at the next annual.
 
So i'm onto a new thing with this recent purchase. For some reason, it seems as though the airspeed is quite low at cruise at around 2400 rpm. It has the 160hp engine installed in it and no issues with the engine at all, really good compressions. Upon levelling off at cruise altitude it seems the airspeed indicator only shows 90-100 on a good day. Tonights flight, foreflight showed cruise around 110 knots. Air was smooth as glass and the weather reports also didn't provide a 20 know tailwind. Any thoughts on this??

If you do the TAS calculation then you can connect the dots to see if it correlates with your indicated.

With the same 160hp conversion, wheel pants, gap seals, and stall kit I’ve seen a tad over 120mph indicated on a cold day 3500-4500 ft msl using 75% power. Hot summer day 115mph indicated at most.
 
So i'm onto a new thing with this recent purchase. For some reason, it seems as though the airspeed is quite low at cruise at around 2400 rpm. It has the 160hp engine installed in it and no issues with the engine at all, really good compressions. Upon levelling off at cruise altitude it seems the airspeed indicator only shows 90-100 on a good day. Tonights flight, foreflight showed cruise around 110 knots. Air was smooth as glass and the weather reports also didn't provide a 20 know tailwind. Any thoughts on this??

Sounds about right. My ‘67 140 with the 160hp engine, wheel pants, gap seals and vortex generators will see a consistent 105kts at 2450 RPM down low (2500msl), bit faster with cold temperatures, bit slower if it’s hot. Higher up, say, 5000-6000msl at 2500-2550RPM I’ll see 110-115kts, again, faster if cold, slower if hotter.
 
So everyone has the 160 hp engine except for me. That's just freakin' wonderful. :mad:

But even with the 150 hp engine, I still cruise at 110-115 in my (built in October 1969) Cherokee.
 
Party in the basement... I've got the 150hp, too.... and mine's four years older...
 
What pitch prop?

Climb props won't cruise as fast as a Cruise prop.
 
You can always fly one direction, note the groundspeed, then turn around 180 degrees and note that groundspeed. Your TAS will be the average.

in the Archer, 75% is 2500-2600 RPM, depending on altitude and temperature. I usually wind up between 110-120 knots. 2200 RPM will give me close to 90 knots in level flight.
 
You can always fly one direction, note the groundspeed, then turn around 180 degrees and note that groundspeed. Your TAS will be the average.

in the Archer, 75% is 2500-2600 RPM, depending on altitude and temperature. I usually wind up between 110-120 knots. 2200 RPM will give me close to 90 knots in level flight.
This is exactly my experience too
 
I can remember figuring 105 kts.no wheel pants.
 
Won't the performance charts provide a benchmark for comparison? You can use a whiz wheel to get the TAS from your IAS, or just ballpark it as IAS + 2% per 1000 feet MSL altitude. Then compare to the POH performance chart. Specific performance will depend on the propeller pitch if various propeller pitches are an option (e.g. climb vs. cruise). The engine shouldn't make a difference with the same prop and rpm setting, although a higher compression engine will be more fuel efficient at the same setting.
 
Hangar friend had a 67 with 150 HP. Him in his Cherokee and I in my little sport plane went from Carolina to Tennessee when I did my first cross country after building the plane. I was targeting 120 knots (138 mph Light Sport cruise limit). Returning home we left Jackson county (KJCA) after a fuel stop and headed over to 6J2. He departed before I did but just before we finished the 1-1/2 hour leg I had slowly slipped by him. He told me he usually flight planned at 110 knots and that number was quite accurate for his plane.

That was a fine little Cherokee that he had and I flew with him in it a number of times. If I needed a back seat a Cherokee would be very high on my list of choices.
 
My ‘68 150hp 140 is right in with most of the other’s. I’ve run checks and calibrations, and I routinely see 105kts true at 2450rpm and 8gph leaned to peak.
I plan to add some speed mods soon.View attachment 90061
 

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If you own a Cherokee 140, you do not concern yourself with cruise speed...

Correction: you do not concern yourself with going fast... but cruise speed is definitely something to be concerned with.
 
Sounds about right for a Cherokee with a 160 hp mill. They aren't speed demons.
 
Won't the performance charts provide a benchmark for comparison?

If I remember from my days of teaching in Cherokee 140/150/etc.'s, the performance charts are pure wishful thinking. Something like 20 mph faster than you'll really go. Not even close to reality.
 
One must average a triangle to get the actual true airspeed.

No, one must not.

Get up to altitude, keep changing heading until your GS peaks or valleys. Fly for a 30s to a minute at that heading to make sure the GS stabilizes. Turn 180. Fly for 30s to a minute. Your average between the two is your TAS. No need for a third leg doing it this way. Now if you select any random heading, yeah, you need 3 or different headings to get the correct TAS.
 
No, one must not.

Get up to altitude, keep changing heading until your GS peaks or valleys. Fly for a 30s to a minute at that heading to make sure the GS stabilizes. Turn 180. Fly for 30s to a minute. Your average between the two is your TAS. No need for a third leg doing it this way. Now if you select any random heading, yeah, you need 3 or different headings to get the correct TAS.

That only works if the earth is truly a sphere............and everyone knows that conspiracy is just a commie plot. The earth is FLAT, otherwise, we'd just fall off the edge.
 
You can always fly one direction, note the groundspeed, then turn around 180 degrees and note that groundspeed. Your TAS will be the average.

in the Archer, 75% is 2500-2600 RPM, depending on altitude and temperature. I usually wind up between 110-120 knots. 2200 RPM will give me close to 90 knots in level flight.
Ditto
 
Unrelated but with everyone seemingly going for the 160hp conversion, why was the true Cherokee 160 so short-lived?
 
Unrelated but with everyone seemingly going for the 160hp conversion, why was the true Cherokee 160 so short-lived?
It had to do with avgas and economics.

While today nearly all piston GA airplanes use the same 100LL fuel, in the day of the Cherokee 160 there were commonly three grades available -- 80/87 octane, 91/96 octane, and 100/115 octane. The higher grades, predictably, were more expensive.

While the first Cherokee to fly was the PA-28-150, the PA-28-160 was the first to be certified and go into production in mid 1961. The 150-hp model followed a few months later, and the 180-hp model in late 1962.

According to Piper's book figures, compared to the Cherokee 150, the Cherokee 160 offered 45 lb more useful load, 2 mph higher cruising speed, and a higher ceiling, all for only $500 more purchase price.

So why would anybody buy a Cherokee 150? Because the Cherokee 150 could use the cheaper 80-octane fuel, while the 160 required the more expensive 91-octane at a minimum, and at airports where 91-octane was not available, the Cherokee 160 pilot would have to spring for 100-octane. Even though there was minimal difference in fuel consumption between the -150 and the -160, the price of fuel made the -160's operating expenses significantly higher.

Piper discontinued the Cherokee 150 and 160 in late 1967, going forward with only the Cherokee 140 trainer (with the same engine as the old -150, but smaller rear cabin and no baggage door), and the wildly popular Cherokee 180 (and 235 and the new Arrow 180).

The 160 hp O-320 was little used in new aircraft for several years, one notable exception being the Twin Comanche. In the mid 1970s came the push to consolidate all avgas production into the single 100LL grade, and the cheaper 80 and 91 octane grades were phased out. Though it was understood that engines built for 80 octane could run on higher grades, it soon became apparent that a steady diet of 100LL in the lower-compression engines was leading to chronic lead fouling and other issues. That's why there was a sudden renaissance of 160 hp engines in 1977, when both the Cherokee Warrior and Cessna 172 switched from 150 hp to higher-compression 160 hp variants of the Lycoming O-320. There was no longer a fuel price disadvantage to those higher-compression engines. That also explains the popularity of the more recent 160 hp conversions.

piper_line_1964_09.jpg
 
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In my 150, if I am passing cars, I am happy.
 
In my cherokee 140 (before and after the 160hp conversion), I was happy just flying.
 
So i'm onto a new thing with this recent purchase. For some reason, it seems as though the airspeed is quite low at cruise at around 2400 rpm. It has the 160hp engine installed in it and no issues with the engine at all, really good compressions. Upon levelling off at cruise altitude it seems the airspeed indicator only shows 90-100 on a good day. Tonights flight, foreflight showed cruise around 110 knots. Air was smooth as glass and the weather reports also didn't provide a 20 know tailwind. Any thoughts on this??
I recently flew my 67 Cherokee w/ 160hp engine from KWST (Westerly RI) to KPGD (Punta Gorda FL). I kept the power between 2350 - 2400 as it was a little bouncy. That and the headwind over Block Island sound and Long Island yielded only 90mph over the ground. The next leg was between MD and SC and got about 110mph. SC to Palatka FL, once again about 110mph. The last leg, I decided to give her a little more juice, ran it at 2500RPM and saw speeds in the 125-130mph range without a significant increase in fuel burn. The plane actually seemed to like it! :)
 
IAS <> TAS <> "Foreflight"

90 IAS at 3500 is a much different story than 90 IAS at 9,500...
 
..a brisk walk

Your observations are typical.. this was 2-3 weeks ago in an Archer III.. these basic trainers were never accused of being fast

View attachment 88901
What was your power setting here, Ta?
All my archer time is in iis- 3 different ‘76s I rent/rented extensively. My fave two person xc choice (152s are my fave solo xc choice, 182s for 4 or mountains)
 
In all these TAS numbers everyone’s giving, nobody is mentioning W&B, and more particularly CG location. Moving the CG afterward will add a bit of speed ( or in the case of the 140, a bit of less-slow).
 
Since someone else resurrected this thread, update: my Cherokee is now 160hp with an engine monitor and power flow exhaust. No performance numbers yet as I have yet to fly it.
 
As long as we're resurrecting a necro-thread, and as long as it’s about cruise speed anyway, I might as well take it slightly OT for a moment and put in a modest defense of the Beech Musketeers. There are all sorts of jokes about how slow the baby Beeches are but almost no speed jokes about the Cherokees, so let's actually compare some numbers for a moment. Take a look at the advertised speeds in the Cherokee chart from post #30:

1705508660757.png

Now look at the Beechcraft's advertised speeds for comparable engine versions:

1705509011184.png

Not much difference, huh? And what little there is favors the Beech. The Beech is roomier, has greater fuel capacity, and has a longer wingspan. Not to mention, for planes in similar condition the Musketeers are typically priced lower than the Cherokees.

We now return you to your regularly unscheduled necro-thread.
 
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Some posts here show MPH, others show knots. The outside ring on a 140 indicates miles per hour, the inner ring is knots per hour. So, 110k = 126 mph, 110 mph = 95 k.
Lean aggressively!
 
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