$1900 spent training last month- time to buy? How did you decide?

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4RNB

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4RNB
How do I know I really ought buy a plane? Just over 11 hours training in October, nearly all dual. I'm starting to solo in circles in the lone C172 available in the area. More people are starting to fly in it, meaning I might have to wait in line. I figure about half the cost last month was for fuel and CFI, fixed cost. Plane owner got the other half. I like flying, my spouse likely will like flying with me, have a potential partner. For the money it seems like ownership starts to make sense. The plan would be to own a similar 172 (as I can't find other trainers to fit me) for 100-200 hours, obtain IFR, and then consider bigger and/or better. A potential partner exists now. Hanger not available for several years so that expense is known for now.

At what point in your training or flying experience did you buy a plane?
Why did you buy the plane?
How did you decide what to buy along the price and quality spectrum?
It seems like reasonable older C172s can be had for 75Kish if one moves very quickly. I've seen some in much better condition younger frames/engines, more modern interior and avionics for 150K.

Thanks
 
Can you afford a catastrophic breakdown, in both cash and time? That will answer one big question.

I bought about 1 year after getting my certificate. I was not flying enough due to planning and scheduling. It was either give it up entirely due to lack of proficiency to fly often enough for safety, or suck it up and buy.

Owning opens up a whole nuther set of variables to have to wrap your mind around. If you have the ability to absorb it along with training and the rest of what life throws at ya, go for it.
 
I bought because my flight school sucked and the planes were terribad. Later I would buy that school.

I would not do it my way if I had it to do again. "Plane Ownership" is an entire skill all unto its own, and doing it in parallel with a Private license is like doing a "double major"

I would DEFINITELY not buy a skyhawk for my own training. Few people do driving school in the corolla so they can later one day own their own corolla. At least be looking at Camrys and the like. C182 and up. I wouldn't own anything I could rent.

Thrash the rentals, get the license, then look at what YOU want to fly. You should get rides in all sorts of planes and see what YOU like, as they are different and varied and awesome, and you can't own them all. I would if I could.

$0.02
 
I bought an airplane when renting was too limiting for what I wanted to do. It wasn’t a dollars to dollars comparison of any kind (in fact, my flying budget increased substantially, primarily due to the ability to do a lot more flying.)

on the other end, I had a big expenditure for an engine overhaul, along with some other (life happens) factors that resulted in the decision to let the airplane go.

19 years of ownership, no regrets on either end.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Can you afford a catastrophic breakdown, in both cash and time? That will answer one big question.

I bought about 1 year after getting my certificate. I was not flying enough due to planning and scheduling. It was either give it up entirely due to lack of proficiency to fly often enough for safety, or suck it up and buy.

Owning opens up a whole nuther set of variables to have to wrap your mind around. If you have the ability to absorb it along with training and the rest of what life throws at ya, go for it.
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I'd prefer not to have major expenses right after buying, that is part of why I think to buy up in quality. We built our house, saved by holding off on a few things, payed more to get them done later. I bought an old International tractor that ended up being ill suited to the tasks, then bought a new low end Mahindra, only now to have fancy new orange tractor that stays out of the shop. I like having good quality tools.

This plane looks easy to buy, might fulfill that initial mission: https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1615514-1965-IFR-Cessna-172F.html

This plane looks great, likely needs rear glass. Great IFR stuff, easy to upgrade to autopilot. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...2M+SKYHAWK&listing_id=2387843&s-type=aircraft
 
schmookeeg said:
I bought because my flight school sucked and the planes were terribad. Later I would buy that school.

I would not do it my way if I had it to do again. "Plane Ownership" is an entire skill all unto its own, and doing it in parallel with a Private license is like doing a "double major"

I would DEFINITELY not buy a skyhawk for my own training. Few people do driving school in the corolla so they can later one day own their own corolla. At least be looking at Camrys and the like. C182 and up. I wouldn't own anything I could rent.

Thrash the rentals, get the license, then look at what YOU want to fly. You should get rides in all sorts of planes and see what YOU like, as they are different and varied and awesome, and you can't own them all. I would if I could.

$0.02
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I get the idea of waiting on a plane. I've been thinking fly basic plane for a couple years, then move to last plane. C172 reads as forgiving. After a couple hundred hours insurance gets reasonable? Then retract, complex, and horsepower can be added if desired. I am not convinced all those things will be desired yet. Besides, those Cirrus planes have a hefty price tag.

Another thing, and perhaps I am just shy, but I am having a tough time being honest with people and getting into other planes. Local FB group post basically unanswered, honest emails to local owners of a particular plane were not answered. In the local area, it just seems like there are a lot of lone wolves
 
I’ll take a little different path on how I came to my decision against purchasing. When I looked at the acquisition + fixed + operating expenses, that was a bridge too far for me financially, especially as a military guy moving every couple of years and having kids young.

Now that the kids are gone and I’m on a second career, I can’t justify a certified aircraft from a maintenance cost standpoint. Experimental seems to be the only option that’s financially viable for me. Don’t have to build, but would like to.
 
$1900. That's about the cost of required maintenance and an annual (depending on what you buy).

I bought when I did because the rentals had 3 various system failures during instrument training. Good to learn how to deal with a real failure during training, bad to delay training and cost more. I bought what I did because I liked the plane and knew I'd be taking longer flights where I wanted the comfort and the ability to go higher (reluctant passenger that doesn't like turbulence, so higher is better). I had also received a pretty good payout from work that gave me the ability to do a cash purchase. But wait! There's more! The mid time engine developed a crack in the case at a little over 100 hours after the purchase, so another $25K in overhaul, install, and other firewall-forward refurbishment (which led to many, many hours of trouble-free flying.

Gotta assess your own situation. Mine pointed to purchase when I did. Likewise when I sold the plane.
 
TCABM said:
I’ll take a little different path on how I came to my decision against purchasing. When I looked at the acquisition + fixed + operating expenses, that was a bridge too far for me financially, especially as a military guy moving every couple of years and having kids young.

Now that the kids are gone and I’m on a second career, I can’t justify a certified aircraft from a maintenance cost standpoint. Experimental seems to be the only option that’s financially viable for me. Don’t have to build, but would like to.
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And this really depends on what you want to do with the airplane, and therefore what kind of airplane you want/need.

in my case, I didn’t need IFR capability, I didn’t need to go fast (in fact, low & slow works quite well for me), so the difference in maintenance cost between certified and experimental really wouldn’t be that huge. I wouldn’t do my own engine overhaul or condition inspections, and I had a good relationship with my mechanic that allowed me to do a fair amount of unscheduled maintenance under his supervision at little to no cost.

On the other hand, one of the “life happens” aspects was marriage and family, where my wife & kids wouldn’t be happy with the ride down low, or the occasional need to pitch a tent at an airport until the weather got better.
 
I don't know that I will use IFR often but figure I will be a better pilot with the training. I think it would be neat to be a CFI. I do know that installing avionics is expensive so figure to get what I might need to start.
 
There's no positive economics to owning an airplane over renting. None.

You didn't say how far along you are in your training. Is this the first 11 hours toward a PPL, or do you already have a PPL and the 11 hours last month was for some other rating? If you have to wait in line for the plane, then get yourself organized and book slots well ahead of time.

Regardless, separate owning an airplane from learning to fly. They are two completely different things with two completely different types of demands in your life.

Owning an airplane comes with real benefits, but it will also complicate your life. Lots of fixed costs including insurance, annual inspection, storage (hangar or tie-down), possible State taxes plus time for scheduling for maintenance, etc. None of which help if you are trying to focus on training.
 
GRG55 said:
There's no positive economics to owning an airplane over renting. None.

You didn't say how far along you are in your training. Is this the first 11 hours toward a PPL, or do you already have a PPL and the 11 hours last month was for some other rating? If you have to wait in line for the plane, then get yourself organized and book slots well ahead of time.

Regardless, separate owning an airplane from learning to fly. They are two completely different things with two completely different types of demands in your life.

Owning an airplane comes with real benefits, but it will also complicate your life. Lots of fixed costs including insurance, annual inspection, storage (hangar or tie-down), possible State taxes plus time for scheduling for maintenance, etc. None of which help if you are trying to focus on training.
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I am at about 25 hours in. 3 hrs or so solo. 11 hours was training. I'm not sure my "school" offers much in the way of organized booking, but I am going to talk to the owner next I see him.
 
FYI, I'm not particularly worried about the money, just want to not have big unexpected expenses. I am recently retired with decent comfort. Drastic increase in monthly expenditures would be emotionally painful but financially okay. As a "new" hobby, want to not get out of hand yet. The big thing I wanted to wait for was solo, make sure I had the cajones! I do.
 
4RNB said:
I'd prefer not to have major expenses right after buying, that is part of why I think to buy up in quality. We built our house, saved by holding off on a few things, payed more to get them done later. I bought an old International tractor that ended up being ill suited to the tasks, then bought a new low end Mahindra, only now to have fancy new orange tractor that stays out of the shop. I like having good quality tools.

This plane looks easy to buy, might fulfill that initial mission: https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1615514-1965-IFR-Cessna-172F.html

This plane looks great, likely needs rear glass. Great IFR stuff, easy to upgrade to autopilot. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...2M+SKYHAWK&listing_id=2387843&s-type=aircraft
Click to expand...

Are either of those planes a good deal? One might be overpriced according to AOPA VREF, the other is right on the money but could have more hidden issues.
 
Doesn’t matter how well you get a prebuy, all these 40 year old stuff might break the next morning. Be at least emotionally prepared that you might need a field overhaul or something smaller that needs to be replaced tomorrow. If you buy from a reputable dealer, Van Bortel I think have some kind of warranty they provide. The planes are not cheap. But I have heard good things about them.

The biggest thing is flexibility. For example. I am sitting on the couch here and thinking of going flying for about 2 hrs now, I will eventually go because I know I don’t have to deal with scheduling crap.

I bought before I solo-ed. Best decision I ever took ( not the most financially responsible decision though lol). But again, memories are priceless.

I would rather pay that $1900 to my airplane than a rental place.
 
4RNB said:
I am at about 25 hours in. 3 hrs or so solo. 11 hours was training. I'm not sure my "school" offers much in the way of organized booking, but I am going to talk to the owner next I see him.
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I would highly recommend you focus on your training, and negotiate something for scheduling the plane and your instructor out in advance. If you can do that I am quite certain you will earn your PPL faster than if you have to deal with the considerable distractions and expense of buying a plane (writing the check to buy the plane is the "easy" part of airplane ownership ;) ).

Try to do some networking around the airport you are hanging out at to train. Get to know the other pilots and airplane owners. Instructors can be good sources of information. Find out if there is a flying club you might be able to join to gain future access to rental aircraft. In the end you may decide owning an airplane is the best solution to your flying needs, but I would encourage you to finish your PPL first, and try to log some time after that in a few different airplanes before you consider plunking down hard-earned cash for something.
 
I wouldn't recommend buying for training. You don't know what you don't know at this stage of your aviation experience. Renting while training allows you to experience flying aircraft with different performance and capabilities. Fly some Piper's to see if you like low wings. Get some experience with your ratings to see what aircraft will meet your mission. Yes, you can always sell later, but maybe by then prices have declined so you're selling at a loss.

Good Luck and Blue Skies!
 
4RNB said:
FYI, I'm not particularly worried about the money, just want to not have big unexpected expenses.
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Then you're not ready for sole ownership, especially fac built. Recommend partnerships in order to divide up the cost. For full disclosure, that [partnership] avenue was never my cup of tea for a slew of reasons that are not germane to the thread.
 
GRG55 said:
Owning an airplane comes with real benefits, but it will also complicate your life. Lots of fixed costs including insurance, annual inspection, storage (hangar or tie-down), possible State taxes plus time for scheduling for maintenance, etc. None of which help if you are trying to focus on training.
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Ain’t that the truth. After nearly 12 years of either owning or being solely financially responsible for aircraft (all twins at that) I can say I am rather enjoying the reduced stress that comes with being in the “not an airplane owner” club. Of course it was fun for a time, but the coordination with mechanics (finding good ones, too...) is a real challenge even if money isn’t a question/problem at all.
 
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We bought because my work schedule was not conducive to renting or clubs. I did both, and by the time I got my airline schedule, late in the month, all the planes were booked every weekend, and most days, too. It was extremely tough to get any of the planes for any appreciable chunks of time to travel, which is why we wanted to fly. If I wanted to putter around the local area for an hour or two, I could probably get a plane on a Tuesday afternoon.

We ended up buying into an existing partnership on a Cherokee 6. The scheduling was much better, but it came with its own issues. We went to Germany, so we sold our share, but vowed to buy again when we got back. We've been back for a year and I'm waiting for a pre-buy to get done on a twin that will be ours alone. This will be the first time for sole-ownership, so I'm learning a lot.
 
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I bought my first plane (C152) while a student pilot with 6 hours in my log book. I put the plane under lease back with my flying club. This lowered my training costs significantly and I made some money on the deal, sometimes getting 100 hours flight revenue a month. There are also a lot of tax deductions available to the owner such as deducting your mileage to and from the airport.
 
Sluggo63 said:
...We've been back for a year and I'm waiting for a pre-buy to get done on a twin that will be ours alone. This will be the first time for sole-ownership, so I'm learning a lot.
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310?
 
I bought my plane pre-solo. Mostly because I did not like having to deal with the scheduling issues and the personality of the flight school owner. I like being able to go out to my plane with my keys and fly it.

But the downside is that training can be interrupted by maintenance items - especially on older planes that one is likely to initially purchase.

I don’t think it saved me any money or sped up the process. But I definitely enjoyed the freedom of scheduling.
 
My thoughts are if you want to own a plane and you know what you want then buy. This goes double if you are interested in a type other than what you're training in- insurance companies will often require time in type with an instructor before they'll cover you solo or with passengers.

Owning is a gamble, you might come out ahead over renting you might end up spending a lot more. Depends on what comes up repair wise and how many hours you fly. The real advantages are having YOUR plane available whenever you want it, being able to take YOUR plane on a cross country for as long as you want and not worry about tying it up for anyone else. Also being able to get the type that most suits you not whatever is available for rent or in a club. The downside is obviously YOU are responsible for every operating expense on that plane

I bought an Archer right around the time I soloed, flew it for years after my I finished my PPL in it. Got my instrument rating and only really traded up when my family grew and I needed the additional space. Owning has been a rewarding and mostly positive experience for me. Know what you can afford of course but I recommend it for anyone who can and wants to do a lot of flying.
 
I would suggest you buy if you have the money. Takes part of the problem of availability out of the training equation. Find a used trainer with the intention of selling when your finished your training.
 
4RNB said:
FYI, I'm not particularly worried about the money, just want to not have big unexpected expenses. I am recently retired with decent comfort. Drastic increase in monthly expenditures would be emotionally painful but financially okay. As a "new" hobby, want to not get out of hand yet. The big thing I wanted to wait for was solo, make sure I had the cajones! I do.
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If it were me, id not buy right yet. You're in the middle of training, you're just into retirement, and you don't want to have big unexpected expenses. To me, that says "don't buy yet", settle into the new hobby, and figure out what kind of flying you want to do - faster for travel, low and slow, aerobatics, instrument flying, etc. then buy to cover 80-90% of the requirements. That'll give you time to figure it out, decide haw the expenses for each plane type will work, and time to get the tax/maintenance/hangar/insurance questions figured out.

JMHO.
 
Yeah don’t buy now. You don’t want unexpected expenses? Don’t buy until you can live with some major, unexpected expenses. Focus on getting done with private. Then maybe consider buying.

When you think you are ready, maybe consider going in with a partner. Splitting the expenses makes it much more palatable.
 
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Deelee said:
Use up the rentals for training. Ignore that red knob. Firewall the throttle on your XCs. Land hard and hammer those brakes to make that first turn off.
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I know everyone has differing views when it comes to rental aircraft, but that’s bad advice to be giving out imho. If you had an airplane on leaseback, is that how you’d want renters to treat it? Probably not. I know it comes with the environment, but still. Advising people to be hard on flight school aircraft is just odd to me...
 
Yeah it was in jest. I’ll delete that part. Good point. Not funny to someone who may take it seriously. I gotta stay off the internet when I’m tired lol.
 
@4RNB

If you have the bug, know you want to fly and can find an arrangement that work for you....buy :) You only live once and this is something you seem to love. Yes, it is probably wiser to beat up the rental first but when its your plane you are landing in you will fly it even more carefully. Many have indicated the pros/cons. Here is what i see from doing all PPL in my own plane:

1. It isn't actually way cheaper! Why - because when you account for hangar or tiedown fees, insurance and the mx fund for the engine rebuild that hour rate will be more than just fuel. You might think you'll cut the cost in half. And you can if skimp on the mx fund you might. But that will bite you later.

2. You will actually spend noticeably more time at the airport during training!. You need to get it out of the hangar or untie it, clean windows, air up tires, add oil, etc. You are totally responsible for fueling it up which can mean a 30min on the truck or an extra taxi to the self serve pump. You will want to clean it afterwards. I think owning the plane cost me at least an extra 40min or more at the airport each lesson....and I loved it because it was flying related and there was always cool planes on nice summer nights.

3. You comment about not having a hangar for quite some time...did I read that right? That would concern me and really weigh in on the decision to own. Maybe you live someplace with nice temps all year and safe ramp parking?

4. If you decide to purchase, get to know a mechanic on the field. Or better yet by a recommendation that is not biased from the training location. This step could save you major $$$$. This A&P is all that is between you and getting a plane with a motor issue or serious airframe issue. Just because it might be flying doesn't mean is it legally airworthy.

5. One place it can be even cheaper is that you can possibly find a CFI that will fly for much cheaper (ie cash) as you can pay him/her directly without the flight school cut.

6. Using a flight school CFI can actually cost you more than his/her rate in a school plane!!! This happened to me. I didn't mind - the first CFI really knew his stuff.

7. Expect that first annual to be upwards of 10% again of the purchase cost. So for that $75K skyhawk by the time you find it and get the first annual done you might have needed closer to $83K.

8. You talk about the 172 being one of the trainers that fit you. So this could be about your height, weight or both? I am fat and relatively tall. I fit in a 172 but like the 182 a lot more. So if your going for the 172 due to weight - make sure you work W&B numbers with some of your planned future flights during the summer time. Lets say its you, your wife, a hot summer day and altitude. A 172 should work but you might have to leave back fuel, have anemic climb rates, etc. So its about the location and aircraft performance too.

9. If you get serious about a fractional owner, come back and post on that specifically. You would hate to get into agreement and end up in legal dispute - especially with friends. That being said - 2 people sharing a 172 to build hours is great. But 2 people sharing older planes that a bit more capable such as Skylane, Cardinal, Dakota, Commander, Mooney, Grumman would be even better.
 
Deelee said:
Yeah it was in jest. I’ll delete that part. Good point. Not funny to someone who may take it seriously. I gotta stay off the internet when I’m tired lol.
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No worries! Just don’t want our student pilots to get the wrong idea. :)
 
I bought my plane before my first lesson. If I had to do it again, I would do the same.
 
So some more details on how I decided.

Back when I was first learning to fly, I figured out pretty quickly that I wanted to fly twins. I waffled on that thought a few times, but knew that no matter what my initial plans for flying included some sort of a travel plane (i.e. not a standard trainer). Locally I was able to get access to rental planes for my private and instrument training just fine, and was able to beg/borrow access to aircraft for my high performance and complex (these really aren't a big deal, I just wanted to get them checked off the list after getting my private). Locally, there were no twins available to rent and I was going to have to go quite a ways to find a rental twin. Then an Aztec came up that had a known history at a price I couldn't refuse ($40k, for those wondering), so that was that. Bought the plane and went into it.

I would suggest that while a 172 is a great trainer, it's not really where most people want to be once they get some hours under their belt. 172s are great trainers and popular in rental fleets because they're boring, common, etc. As everyone else has said you need to be ready to spend a bunch of money whenever you buy a plane. The old test is if you can't afford to replace an engine the day after you buy it, you probably shouldn't buy it. Of course the reality of having to do that is usually pretty slim, even with buying a plane with a run out engine. I'd also suggest that at this point in your flying, you probably don't yet know what it is you want to do. Owning an aircraft is an experience worth having, but most people don't want to keep their trainer aircraft forever. Maybe you'll want an old taildragger, maybe you'll want a 182 because you want a bit more space and load than a 172 can, maybe you'll want a twin, maybe you'll want a good go-places single like a Mooney or a Comanche (what? Bonanza is the answer!). Or maybe you'll find yourself wanting to undertake the adventure of building a plane. But at this point, you probably don't know. If you do, great, but 172 is usually not it. I know a lot fewer individuals who own 172s for themselves rather than for the purpose of leaseback etc.
 
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