$1900 spent training last month- time to buy? How did you decide?

[TCABM]

Hey OP; ownership solves only half the problem re: scheduling. Throughout training, you will still need a CFI. What blocks exists to their availability? Will your existing CFI even be able to train you in your plane? I ask because he/she may have work or insurance rules that limit their availability to provide you primary training in your aircraft.

 

[GaryM]

I bought my plane before my first lesson. If I had to do it again, I would do the same.

I bought into an equity-based club before my first lesson. Kinda similar, but the club model reduces exposure to unexpected costs-and the club had instructors, so it was a nicely packaged deal.

 

[4RNB]

I would suggest you buy if you have the money. Takes part of the problem of availability out of the training equation. Find a used trainer with the intention of selling when your finished your training.

yeah, I'm thinking get/buy a plane that is IFR certified, put in 100-200 hours in, perhaps in a partnership for someone that wants to do the same. I suggested we put a time limitation of two years, then sell.

 

[4RNB]

@4RNB

If you have the bug, know you want to fly and can find an arrangement that work for you....buy You only live once and this is something you seem to love. Yes, it is probably wiser to beat up the rental first but when its your plane you are landing in you will fly it even more carefully. Many have indicated the pros/cons. Here is what i see from doing all PPL in my own plane:

1. It isn't actually way cheaper! Why - because when you account for hangar or tiedown fees, insurance and the mx fund for the engine rebuild that hour rate will be more than just fuel. You might think you'll cut the cost in half. And you can if skimp on the mx fund you might. But that will bite you later.

2. You will actually spend noticeably more time at the airport during training!. You need to get it out of the hangar or untie it, clean windows, air up tires, add oil, etc. You are totally responsible for fueling it up which can mean a 30min on the truck or an extra taxi to the self serve pump. You will want to clean it afterwards. I think owning the plane cost me at least an extra 40min or more at the airport each lesson....and I loved it because it was flying related and there was always cool planes on nice summer nights.

3. You comment about not having a hangar for quite some time...did I read that right? That would concern me and really weigh in on the decision to own. Maybe you live someplace with nice temps all year and safe ramp parking?

4. If you decide to purchase, get to know a mechanic on the field. Or better yet by a recommendation that is not biased from the training location. This step could save you major $$$$. This A&P is all that is between you and getting a plane with a motor issue or serious airframe issue. Just because it might be flying doesn't mean is it legally airworthy.

5. One place it can be even cheaper is that you can possibly find a CFI that will fly for much cheaper (ie cash) as you can pay him/her directly without the flight school cut.

6. Using a flight school CFI can actually cost you more than his/her rate in a school plane!!! This happened to me. I didn't mind - the first CFI really knew his stuff.

7. Expect that first annual to be upwards of 10% again of the purchase cost. So for that $75K skyhawk by the time you find it and get the first annual done you might have needed closer to $83K.

8. You talk about the 172 being one of the trainers that fit you. So this could be about your height, weight or both? I am fat and relatively tall. I fit in a 172 but like the 182 a lot more. So if your going for the 172 due to weight - make sure you work W&B numbers with some of your planned future flights during the summer time. Lets say its you, your wife, a hot summer day and altitude. A 172 should work but you might have to leave back fuel, have anemic climb rates, etc. So its about the location and aircraft performance too.

9. If you get serious about a fractional owner, come back and post on that specifically. You would hate to get into agreement and end up in legal dispute - especially with friends. That being said - 2 people sharing a 172 to build hours is great. But 2 people sharing older planes that a bit more capable such as Skylane, Cardinal, Dakota, Commander, Mooney, Grumman would be even better.

2. So far I am not allowed to clean the bugs off the windshield. I would love to spend time cleaning what I fly. I'm at the airport early anyway, sat there for an hour while another student was up for my CFI to tell me it was too turbulent.

3. yeah, hangars are 15 deep on waitlist at two airports.

4. I trust the mechanics in the area though work seems to take a while.

5/6. My CFI is 2000 hours, done a lot of things. I trust him, will stick with him if I can.

7. I heard to budget 10K for first annual, one of the reasons I'd prefer to finance a plane and save cash for anything major.

8. My BMI is 31-32, quite tall. Width is an issue, yes 182 might be better.

9. Have not had luck sitting in some others. Early cardinal had headroom issues, a later one worked. Want to sit in Socata TB-9. Have not been able to sit in some of those others but have driven 5 hrs to sit/fly in planes we would consider.

 

[4RNB]

Hey OP; ownership solves only half the problem re: scheduling. Throughout training, you will still need a CFI. What blocks exists to their availability? Will your existing CFI even be able to train you in your plane? I ask because he/she may have work or insurance rules that limit their availability to provide you primary training in your aircraft.

I'm not sure. But I could still do some solo stuff and work/improve on proficiency. And if need be, another school would train me in my plane, likely for more money per hour.

 

[Ted]

7. I heard to budget 10K for first annual, one of the reasons I'd prefer to finance a plane and save cash for anything major.

That's probably not a bad average, but the standard deviation is really broad. If you need an engine, that $10k turns into $30k real fast.

 

[4RNB]

That's probably not a bad average, but the standard deviation is really broad. If you need an engine, that $10k turns into $30k real fast.

I can do that, especially with a partner. Partner acts more cash flush than me, wants to pay cash for plane, I say different. Keep cash cushion. Besides, why tie up cash if we are to only sell in a year or two?

 

[schmookeeg]

When I was running our flight school, I once had a student who, after completing his PPL checkride, sneered at me "How do you like that BMW I bought for ya?"

I looked in the lot at my 150,000 mile Honda Civic, but kept the smile going. With effort. Also his imagined BMW would have been a lease-returned 128i with body damage, not the i8 or M6 his noise level and pomposity implied.

For your 11 hours of dual, I'm guessing it broke out approximately thus:

$550-ish for the CFI, split with him/her.

Of the ~$1400 left for the plane, it would have been:

appx 110 gallons of 100LL, ~$440-$550 or so for your flight. A few more bucks for oil.

and your share of:

the $700-$900/mo insurance bill for flight school cover. An owner's policy will only be about $100-$150/mo.
the $500-$600/mo payment if (god forbid) they financed the bird
the "20% rake" to the FBO if it's a leaseback
11% of the 100-hour inspection (about a grand), and 11% of the squawks found in that period (usually a few hundo, often a set of tires and brakes)
22% of the 50-hour oil change (about $150)
the $50-100/mo tiedown, or the $200-500/mo hangar
the $30-60 GPS database, if equipped

...yadda yadda. planes are bonfires you throw cash in to keep lit.

==

If others flew that plane a lot this month, the owner probably pocketed a few hundred of your dollars. If not, he got consumed by insurance and fixed costs. Aircraft leasebacks are a tricky balancing act that tends to annoy everyone -- renters, FBOs, and owners, equally.

I've also noticed a strange phenomenon with pilots who buy a plane after PPL -- they don't fly as much. Removing the "drive to the checkride" pressure seems to remove a lot of flying impetus. Building a purchase plan on 150 hours/yr of flying is probably double what you may actually do. You'll likely still come out ahead at 75 hours a year, but "only just".

While I still think purchasing is a bad idea pre-checkride, owning your own bird rocks. The seat is set exactly right and exactly where you left it. You know the fuel and oil situation. You know how many hard landings the airframe has absorbed, etc etc. But it's not half of that $1,900 you'll be saving, it's probably more like 10% when it's all totted up.

If supply of 172s is constrained in your area, getting 2-4 other partners in the plane will make your flying very very cheap indeed. Fuel and 1/3-1/5 of expenses would be an amazing configuration. Then you can get your CFI and make pilots in the thing and end up owning a flight school. The circle of life repeats

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[4RNB]

When I was running our flight school, I once had a student who, after completing his PPL checkride, sneered at me "How do you like that BMW I bought for ya?"

I looked in the lot at my 150,000 mile Honda Civic, but kept the smile going. With effort. Also his imagined BMW would have been a lease-returned 128i with body damage, not the i8 or M6 his noise level and pomposity implied.

For your 11 hours of dual, I'm guessing it broke out approximately thus:

$550-ish for the CFI, split with him/her.

Of the ~$1400 left for the plane, it would have been:

appx 110 gallons of 100LL, ~$440-$550 or so for your flight. A few more bucks for oil.

and your share of:

the $700-$900/mo insurance bill for flight school cover. An owner's policy will only be about $100-$150/mo.
the $500-$600/mo payment if (god forbid) they financed the bird
the "20% rake" to the FBO if it's a leaseback
11% of the 100-hour inspection (about a grand), and 11% of the squawks found in that period (usually a few hundo, often a set of tires and brakes)
22% of the 50-hour oil change (about $150)
the $50-100/mo tiedown, or the $200-500/mo hangar
the $30-60 GPS database, if equipped

...yadda yadda. planes are bonfires you throw cash in to keep lit.

==

If others flew that plane a lot this month, the owner probably pocketed a few hundred of your dollars. If not, he got consumed by insurance and fixed costs. Aircraft leasebacks are a tricky balancing act that tends to annoy everyone -- renters, FBOs, and owners, equally.

I've also noticed a strange phenomenon with pilots who buy a plane after PPL -- they don't fly as much. Removing the "drive to the checkride" pressure seems to remove a lot of flying impetus. Building a purchase plan on 150 hours/yr of flying is probably double what you may actually do. You'll likely still come out ahead at 75 hours a year, but "only just".

While I still think purchasing is a bad idea pre-checkride, owning your own bird rocks. The seat is set exactly right and exactly where you left it. You know the fuel and oil situation. You know how many hard landings the airframe has absorbed, etc etc. But it's not half of that $1,900, it's probably more like 10% when it's all totted up.

If supply of 172s is constrained in your area, getting 2-4 other partners in the plane will make your flying very very cheap indeed. Fuel and 1/3-1/5 of expenses would be an amazing configuration. Then you can get your CFI and make pilots in the thing and end up owning a flight school. The circle of life repeats

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Yeah, off the top of my head I figured half was for fuel and CFI. I came up with $550 each when getting more precise. Not a leaseback. School has likely owned the plane for a while., maybe 12 yrs.
GPS? LOL, no such thing.
Owner does the inspections.
But I get it. I'm not begrudging them getting my money, it is purely me examining my expenses and thinking of alternatives.

All of this is having fun with the money we have saved with the limited time left in good health.

 

[bluerooster]

The only reason I bought is because I can, at any time, with no warning, go fly. I can fly to Tx, stay a week, and come back, by way of SSI.
The latter of those have made owning cheaper than renting. Most of the rentals require a minimum of 4hrs+/day for an over nighter. And forget having it for a week or more.

 

[Llk]

I don’t agree with some of the posters here- if you want to buy, buy. It is definitely a different skill from flying, and one well worth it always having a plane on the ramp ready to take you places without hassle.

For instance, when you see some of the airplanes you posted - aside from how much time is left on the engine, when was the engine overhaul? How frequently is it flown? Beyond IFR training, what radios do you plan on flying in IMC? Do you think it will be easy to flip your purchase when done?

Ideally you need a competent “friend” who’s an A&P or IA to help teach you the ropes during the purchase process and learn reviewing the logbooks. Aside from simply paying money out on repairs and maintenance, the know how behind it is important.

I purchased my 172 right around 9/11 - schools couldn’t afford the insurance and we’re looking to get out, so I purchased it cheaply. Today, or recently, 172’s were inflated because they’re popular as trainers where right before covid there was a pilot shortage. In your shoes, I’d buy anything BUT a 172/182. Plenty of Piper /beech or other aircraft value out there.

I’ve paid well over $100 an hour for a flight instructor. I’ve also paid $25-35 recently, not a friend, and with decades of experience. You don’t always get what you pay for in aviation. The same goes for an airplane purchase - there are deals to be found and had.

When I purchased my Turbo Mooney back in the late 90’s, the market value foe it was almost $200k. I purchased it for less than half of that. I definitely was NOT in a rush to buy, and I did NOT fall in love with that plane.

My mechanic, one of three I use, charges me $2 per horsepower to perform annuals. The 1976 172 runs me about $400 a year to do the annual. An overhaul on the engine will run me about $17k coming up.

I have been a member of flying clubs - some as few as 4, and as many as 50. Co-owning an airplane is like a MARRIAGE...don’t forget it. If you want to incur an expense and your partner doesn’t and it’s not part of the agreement, ooops. If he’s a slob and you’re not, or flys a lot and when you want to, ooops. Choices.

I find some of the avionics costs offensive these days. Not simply the acquisition cost, but also the install costs as well. The 172 had the original RT328 trays and marco radios. I personally ripped them out, and years back I installed a GX60, SL30 and PMA7000 audio panel. I later added an GMX200 and GNS480, along with an HSI, and lastly a GDL88. Too much for a 172? Perhaps, and god knows the number of pins was mind numbing...but I didn’t pay Garmin a dime let alone an avionics shop- owner assisted. Did I learn a tad installing those avionics? You bet. I don’t expect most owners would do that.

I had to eat an engine in the turbo mooney- not a cheap overhaul. I would rather have purchased a J model/201, but that’s a different thing altogether. That overhaul alone can eat your budget. What’s the overhaul cost difference between a C172 and a T182?

Just a list of things to consider.