1500 hrs for Commercial?

[flav8r]

Did I read this correctly?
Flying (mag) is reporting that congress is making 1500hrs the minimum for pilots entering the commuter airline ranks.

If this is correct then I would expect a massive pilot shortage soon.
It would take over ten years to pay back the loans for training and flight time.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Did I read this correctly?
Flying (mag) is reporting that congress is making 1500hrs the minimum for pilots entering the commuter airline ranks.

If this is correct then I would expect a massive pilot shortage soon.
It would take over ten years to pay back the loans for training and flight time.

Well, there are several proposals floating around. That is just one of them. Unless I missed something, nothing firm has been decided as of yet.

 

[LearDriver]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Some of the people that have entered the industry in the last several years, when they were taking guys with 250 and 10 M/E, could use the time to build up their basic skill sets better by doing CFI work.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The House passed its version -1500hr minimum - last I heard, the Senate was working on a 800hr minimum version.
I read they are working on a 90 day extension to sort it out.
-edit: the Senate has passed their version, Mar 23.
ANN article

What about other commercial ops that don't pose much threat to the public, banner towing etc - does that really need a 1500hr minimum?

 

[SCCutler]

I believe that the minima being discussed are related to 121 ops.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You are right.

 

[Everskyward]

Except for in the very recent past there were only a few periods in time when airlines, regional or otherwise, would hire below 1500 hours anyway, just because of supply and demand.

 

[Danos]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Some of the people that have entered the industry in the last several years, when they were taking guys with 250 and 10 M/E, could use the time to build up their basic skill sets better by doing CFI work.

There is none which goes to further the shortage. Most of the guys I know on furlough have moved on and given up completely on the aviation industry. No one can afford to train with the economy the way it is so there's not much in the way of up and coming pilots.

 

[taters]

I would expect 800 hours as the flight schools will lobby like hell against 1500 hours..but you never know. Personally I think P135 PIC mins make sense for P121.
As for the shortage..
AOPA suggest all Major airlines will be hiring by mid 2011. I have never bought the hype of a pilot shortage. that is mostly a sales tactic for flight schools...but once the ALPA sponsored Age 65 boomers are gone I do think there will be another moderate wave of hiring... Allegiant and Airtran both had spring classes this year...that is a start.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I think this bill was directed at the Colgan crash in Buffalo, no?
In that case, both pilots had well over 1500hrs.
Not sure how this would have helped. Although I agree with ATP in both seats.

 

[weilke]

While I don't follow the politics around it, I believe it revolved around requiring an ATP for the right seat in a part 121 flight. Last I heard was 800hrs and some sort of SIC rating.

You could still get your commercial at 250hrs and fly some attorney around in his 210.

 

[schmookeeg]

I would expect 800 hours as the flight schools will lobby like hell against 1500 hours..

I chuckled warmly at the idea of a flight school lobby As if we're that organized, politically informed, OR far-sighted -- or even monetized sufficiently to send suits to DC to pour hookers and colombian nose candy into senators to secure those extra training dollars.

 

[Ted]

Sounds to me like that means you have to have enough hours to get your ATP in order to do 121 ops. Doesn't seem too illogical to me.

So long as you can still get your commercial and CFI at 250 hours (less from a 141 school), I'm not sure that would change a whole lot for most people.

 

[taters]

I chuckled warmly at the idea of a flight school lobby As if we're that organized, politically informed, OR far-sighted -- or even monetized sufficiently to send suits to DC to pour hookers and colombian nose candy into senators to secure those extra training dollars.

I was referring to the Embry Riddles , UND's etc places that are somewhat associated with airlines... surely didn't mean to conger up the image of "Bob" from Ace Flying School standing in the halls of the Senate :smile:

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I think this bill was directed at the Colgan crash in Buffalo, no?
In that case, both pilots had well over 1500hrs.
Not sure how this would have helped. Although I agree with ATP in both seats.

Yup, I'm not really sure how exactly requiring the ATP minimum's would change any crash. Something needs to be done to change who the 121 environment can hire. I'm also not a big fan of the proposal Embry-Riddle put out there, where they would be able to have pilot's get hired with like 450 hours or something like that, because they took certain course's at the school. I don't think the classroom learning replaces learning in the airplane, and thus as such, they shouldn't have a lower requirement than anyone else. They still use the same PTS that a part 61 environment use, so I'm not sure how they claim their pilots are better

 

[JeffDG]

I was referring to the Embry Riddles , UND's etc places that are somewhat associated with airlines... surely didn't mean to conger up the image of "Bob" from Ace Flying School standing in the halls of the Senate :smile:

Oh, don't worry...UND and E-R graduates will probably be "exempt" from the new hours requirements.

 

[Bob Noel]

This is great. Aviation needs Congress getting more involved in the various
rules.

/sarcasm

 

[Ted]

Yup, I'm not really sure how exactly requiring the ATP minimum's would change any crash. Something needs to be done to change who the 121 environment can hire. I'm also not a big fan of the proposal Embry-Riddle put out there, where they would be able to have pilot's get hired with like 450 hours or something like that, because they took certain course's at the school. I don't think the classroom learning replaces learning in the airplane, and thus as such, they shouldn't have a lower requirement than anyone else. They still use the same PTS that a part 61 environment use, so I'm not sure how they claim their pilots are better

Why does something need to be changed? Aviation is still the safest way to travel. There is no doubt that it is horrific when something goes wrong and a plane crashes, killing everyone on board, however that does not necessarily indicate something needs to be changed more than it was a fluke.

It consistently amazes me how the same people who will demand 10,000 hour or better pilots for airlines will happily hop into my plane with me and not think anything of it. They've been doing it since I had 45 hours total time.

 

[maddog52]

Why does something need to be changed? Aviation is still the safest way to travel. There is no doubt that it is horrific when something goes wrong and a plane crashes, killing everyone on board, however that does not necessarily indicate something needs to be changed more than it was a fluke.
.

I think the last six part 121 crashes in the US resulting in fatalities all involved regional carriers and the trend doesn't seem to be getting any better. That's what all the hype is about but it is still a valid concern. Of course people don't count the South West incident at MDW where they overran and killed a kid in car outside the airport since he wasn't a passenger.

People are just now realizing that the experience in the cockpit can vary greatly. 800 hours min for 121 ops is still only 1/5 the 4000 hour average for new hires at the major airlines.

 

[Ted]

And here comes the question:

Where do all these pilots get their 4000 hours from? Gotta get it somewhere...

 

[LearDriver]

And here comes the question:

Where do all these pilots get their 4000 hours from? Gotta get it somewhere...

Flight instructing, Part 135, Corporate flying. They are only talking about 121 operations. I would expect that there be a higher standard required for 121 operations.

 

[taters]

Oh, don't worry...UND and E-R graduates will probably be "exempt" from the new hours requirements.

Oh no doubt..what a scam job they will pull...even more disappointing are the airlines that participate in their shenanigans.

 

[maddog52]

And here comes the question:

Where do all these pilots get their 4000 hours from? Gotta get it somewhere...

The 800 hour guys get hired at the REGIONAL and build their time. The 4000 hour guys get hired by the MAJORS either having worked at a regional or in the military.

In 2000, the average pilot hired to fly a regional jet had 2000 hours and the average pilot hired to fly at a major airline was 4000 hours.

Today, the average pilot hired at a regional has 600 hours while the average at the majors is still 4000.

 

[flav8r]

In 2000, the average pilot hired to fly a regional jet had 2000 hours and the average pilot hired to fly at a major airline was 4000 hours.

Today, the average pilot hired at a regional has 600 hours while the average at the majors is still 4000.

I'm not trying to be negative about this but where are all these new pilots coming from?
I haven't been to a single airport in Florida (aviation student training mecca of the world) that doesn't look like a ghost town.
Back around 2003 every airport I flew into had some visible activity and now all but a few seem dead.

 

[LearDriver]

I'm not trying to be negative about this but where are all these new pilots coming from?
I haven't been to a single airport in Florida (aviation student training meccal of the world) that doesn't look like a ghost town.
Back around 2003 every airport I flew into had some visible activity and now all but a few seem dead.

Most airports seem like ghost towns in the last 18 months. Even VNY has lost its place as the busiest GA airport.

 

[Tristar]

I constantly hear both extremes. One minute we're in a shortage of students/pilots because of the economy and then the next minute we have way too many and competition is tight. I personally have a hard time believing that a national requirement for 1500 hours could become the norm, however, for the airlines it would make competition less which is why they're pointing more at the airline aspect. This could be both good and bad. If you change one thing, it creates a chain of events on other things such as flight schools. Although in my experience, a lot of students that go through your local FBO don't want to be in the airlines. They just want to fly for fun. Therefore I think the big schools like UND and ERAU would be hit the hardest....they're also the ones with the most money and supporters. For all of you who wish to be an airline pilot....no matter what happens or where you go to school, you will ALWAYS have competition getting into the airlines as well as keeping your job. It's hard to hear I know, but its their job to weed out who can handle the stress...which has nothing to do with how many hours you have and more to do with how you spent those hours. Welcome to flying a large metal container hundreds of miles per hour with dear grandma on board in uncontrollable and sometimes unpredictable weather. As a northwest CEO put it once at one of our college conventions, "We are excited about converging Delta and Northwest. We will only be hiring the best of the best!"

 

[Ted]

The 800 hour guys get hired at the REGIONAL and build their time. The 4000 hour guys get hired by the MAJORS either having worked at a regional or in the military.

In 2000, the average pilot hired to fly a regional jet had 2000 hours and the average pilot hired to fly at a major airline was 4000 hours.

Today, the average pilot hired at a regional has 600 hours while the average at the majors is still 4000.

To me that makes sense. My point is I hear a lot of people (usually not on here) who want all pilots flying for hire to have 10,000 hours. One friend of mine said she only wanted pilots who had experience flying every aircraft ever built and never had any problems flying any of them. I told her such a pilot didn't exist, which she didn't like to hear.

Happy medium is required...

 

[Everskyward]

I constantly hear both extremes. One minute we're in a shortage of students/pilots because of the economy and then the next minute we have way too many and competition is tight.

They have been talking about a pilot shortage for at least 25 years, or a long as I have been paying attention. The thing is that there isn't a shortage of pilots in general, although there may be, at times, a shortage of pilots who are willing to take certain jobs for a certain amount of pay. The better jobs have always been competitive. Right now there are quite a few unemployed, experienced pilots out there. Would they go work for a regional just so they can fly an airplane? I'm guessing that in the large majority of cases, probably not.

 

[weilke]

Would they go work for a regional just so they can fly an airplane? I'm guessing that in the large majority of cases, probably not.

That means they are not unemployed as in the 'looking for work' sense.

They are taking a year off while eating their severance payment or mooching of their wife while lamenting the injustices of the world.

 

[Everskyward]

That means they are not unemployed as in the 'looking for work' sense.

They are taking a year off while eating their severance payment or mooching of their wife while lamenting the injustices of the world.

No, not really. Most I know have gone into something else or are contracting occasionally. Nothing wrong with living off your severance or mooching off your wife anyway.

 

[weilke]

Nothing wrong with living off your severance or mooching off your wife anyway.

I am currently working on 'mooching off my wife' for a second career .

 

[Ted]

No, not really. Most I know have gone into something else or are contracting occasionally. Nothing wrong with living off your severance or mooching off your wife anyway.

I've found my future wife!

 

[Everskyward]

I've found my future wife!

Good reason to avoid marriage, it's easier to hang on to your money.

 

[PittsDriver]

In mid-2000, my young CFII got picked up by Masaba. He'd been out of ER for about a year and had 600TT and 100 multi.

As for regulations, It doesn't bother me if they require at least one ATP up front with plenty of hours and the other person can be a time builder. I left the little island of Saba one time on a twin Otter and neither person sitting at the controls looked to be out of high school. But hey, they both wore nice white shirts with epaulets.

 

[Ted]

Good reason to avoid marriage, it's easier to hang on to your money.

Why do you think I broke off my engagement?

 

[RyanShort1]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Some of the people that have entered the industry in the last several years, when they were taking guys with 250 and 10 M/E, could use the time to build up their basic skill sets better by doing CFI work.

Not sure that's a really good idea... I've known several CFI types who's long term goal was the airlines. They never were that happy teaching and didn't seem to really do their students the best. If a guy really wants to go to the airlines, I'd really think that there might be a better track for them. The best CFI's I've flown with were guys who weren't so interested in getting somewhere, but in providing the best instruction.

Ryan

 

[Everskyward]

I've known several CFI types who's long term goal was the airlines.

Just because someone's future goal is the airlines doesn't mean they can't do a good job with the task at hand.

They never were that happy teaching and didn't seem to really do their students the best.

But if that's the case then it's true that they shouldn't be CFIs.

The best CFI's I've flown with were guys who weren't so interested in getting somewhere, but in providing the best instruction.

That may be true in a lot of cases but I can also think of some examples I know where the saying, "If you can't do, teach" would apply.

I don't think it's an all or nothing thing. Just because someone is not looking to make a whole career as a CFI doesn't mean they can't be effective teacher.

 

[flav8r]

The best CFI's I've flown with were guys who weren't so interested in getting somewhere, but in providing the best instruction.

Ryan

Excellent point!
Not everyone is cut out to teach, take me for example...
I already have a teenager in the house that tests my patients on a daily basis, I don't need a student pilot that you can't ground or send to their room.

 

[LearDriver]

Not sure that's a really good idea... I've known several CFI types who's long term goal was the airlines. They never were that happy teaching and didn't seem to really do their students the best. If a guy really wants to go to the airlines, I'd really think that there might be a better track for them. The best CFI's I've flown with were guys who weren't so interested in getting somewhere, but in providing the best instruction.

Ryan

Instructing is a really important phase of a pilots career. There is a lot of knowledge that is learned during that phase of your overall career. The pilots that have skipped that step are missing important building blocks of knowledge. I have flown with several that have skipped that step. It is quite noticeable in watching them perform their jobs.

Not everyone wants to be an instructor. I still like doing it after 20 years of flying. But not many feel like that. Some students can really be a PITA after a while of working with them. So unless you can pick the ones that you work with, you can get burned out really quick.

That goes the same for the student. They need to do their homework when picking a CFI. Avoid the ones that aren't giving you your monies worth. The best ones are always in demand and usually charge a higher rate.

Early in my career I went from being a CFI to a 135 pilot. Within 6 months I was tapped to be a company instructor teaching ground school. Then prepping guys for their 135 checks and then check airmen. It seems that at every level of this industry you will find instructors. Some of us just never get away from it.