140 vs. j-3 vs. champ? Thinking of a cheap learner plane.

Which one?

  • 140

    Votes: 15 33.3%

  • J-3

    Votes: 5 11.1%

  • Champ

    Votes: 18 40.0%

  • None of the above?

    Votes: 7 15.6%
  • Total voters
    45
S

soconnoriv

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soconnoriv
Hey guys, I'm new to this forum and am planning on going to flight school soon.

I wanted to get a cheap plane that would be good for getting hours after/during my private training. I'm pretty interested in something that is light, cheap, and preferably IFR capable. Hopefully that's not too picky.

As for the title of the thread, those were the first three planes I thought of. Maybe even a 150 or 152 if not too expensive? Any other suggestions? Is one plane better then the other? Anything else I should be considering?

In case this changes the outcome, I already have an A&P. So I don't mind getting a fixer upper!

A pilot at work told me to go for the champ, but I wasn't sure if all of them were IFR. I don't really work much on GA stuff either. Most of my time working has been spent on Cessna 208's which fly commercial.

Any advice is appreciated! Sorry if this thread sounds n00bish.
 
None of the planes listed would be IFR capable. The champ or J3 would not be able to fly at night to meet the night training requirements. Not sure about the C140.

You mentioned the 150/152. Depending on where you are (heat, high DA), I'd go for the 152. You can do IFR with the right radio stack.
 
Cubs command a premium price compared to the others. Unless you specifically want a Cub...

Cessna 140 should be fine - even most 120s have electrical systems now. It will take some effort to find an IFR 140. My brother got his IFR rating in a Cessna 120.

Champ is an easy airplane to fly - you will need lights and radios - not all have electrical.

Cessna 150/152 is going to cost a lot less than a Cub and will have at least some avionics - enough for IFR training is not that unusual. Probably the easiest choice if you really want the IFR junk and don't mind a nosewheel.

I would have picked a Taylorcraft myself if I was buying something type certificated - but the minimal / no electrical may be an issue for you.
 
For fun, Champ.

For PPL rating the 140 or the 150/152.

For anything beyond, 150/152 would be perfect.
 
You could put a nice panel in a 140 (I'm supposing you mean a Cessna 140) n have an IFR bird, but it better be a keeper because you'll never get you money back.
 
Your survey should have lumped J3 and Champ together, they fit the same mission :)
 
Henning said:
You could put a nice panel in a 140 (I'm supposing you mean a Cessna 140) n have an IFR bird, but it better be a keeper because you'll never get you money back.
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I looked at a 140 that had a Garmin 430w, plus all the other instruments, only the layout was funky.
 
N2124v said:
I looked at a 140 that had a Garmin 430w, plus all the other instruments, only the layout was funky.
Click to expand...

Yep, put in a G-500 and a GNS-750 though and you have a hell of a deck.:D

An Aspen and a 430W would work out as well though.
 
Low cost + IFR, besides the 150/152, consider the Piper Tomahawk. Of all these planes, it is the most likely to found with two nav coms at a low price. It's more comfortable than a 150/52 as well.

The tail draggers you suggested are unlikely to be IFR equipped. J3s are over valued, don't even consider it with this mission.
 
Sounds like most of you guys are leaning toward the 140 and 150/152 for the ifr. Unless I find one already with it installed, I don't really want to go through all of the money and time to make a 140 ifr. That is if I could really get a 150/152 for that cheap!
 
Dav8or said:
Low cost + IFR, besides the 150/152, consider the Piper Tomahawk. Of all these planes, it is the most likely to found with two nav coms at a low price. It's more comfortable than a 150/52 as well.

The tail draggers you suggested are unlikely to be IFR equipped. J3s are over valued, don't even consider it with this mission.
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Yeah you guys are right, j-3s are just too overpriced. Forget em! I'll have to look more into a tomahawk. Not too familiar with those
 
140s are way cool.

150s are a lot of fun to fly but as mentioned can get a bit cramped at times.

Start cruising barnstormers and controller to get an idea of what the market is right now.
 
Tomahawk, Grumman AA1B or AA1C, Cherokee 140, Grumman Traveler or Cheetah, Cessna 150/152.
 
I've heard dubious tales of IFR-certified Champs; it could be done but beyond maybe earning the IR cert it would be very limited in utility as an IFR plane, and the weight of the stuff needed for IFR would limit it as a fun flyer.

A 140 is a different story, especially with an engine upgrade. There are some out there that fit the bill, but the ones I've seen have pretty primitive instrumentation and avionics, and things like venturi-driven attitude instruments with no backup.
But never say never... if you fly one, you may be willing to compromise, or even throw money into it to modernize the panel a bit. They are fun and easy to fly.
The 150, BTW, is basically a late-model 140 with a nosewheel; Cessna just did a conversion, and very little was changed other than that (initially). Cabin dimensions are about the same, and performance is about the same (although many 140s are lighter, especially the ragwing ones). Unless you really, really want a tailwheel or fabric wings, you may as well get a 150. There are just more of them out there, and a higher percentage of them are IFR-capable.
But don't forget the Luscombe 8s... after all, Cessna pretty much just copied that airplane to produce the 140. I have seen some of those set up for IFR, but that is rare. I think with the right setup a Luscombe would be best of all the planes mentioned, because they tend to be a bit faster than the Cessnas.
 
Get a 172 and rent it back to the flight school.

That's what you'll end up with anyway.
 
Besides learning to fly, what are you going to do with this plane? Or are you going to buy it to learn and then sell it when you get your license? If so, what do you expect to be flying then? And you mentioned IFR -- are you planning to continue on to your instrument rating?

Answer those questions and I'll have some suggestions.
 
J3 if you want a J3 and are willing to pay the J3 premium for it.

Champ if you want a nice flying light Sport airplane that doesn't cost as much as a J3

C140 if you want a cheap airplane to learn in that doesn't need to be light Sport

C150 or C152 if you want to get an panel capable of getting your Instrument rating.
 
I had an IFR 140 Cessna 20 years ago. A pals daughter got her commercial in it. It's a nice airplane but a little underpowered (85 hp)with full tanks on a hot day. I would look for a Luscombe F model. They show up every so often on barnstormers, trade a plane. More fun to fly, faster, good looking and some F models have very nice instruments. Some have been repowered with an 0200, making them very responsive. They must be gone over very carefully for corrosion. Great little airplane. I've also owned a J3 and still wonder why I bought it, overpriced, slow, boring.
 
If you want to fly IFR, you'll have a much easier time finding something newer than the three listed planes with the equipment you'll need.
 
Perhaps a Cherokee 140. Cheap to operate, easy to work on, plentiful and inexpensive and lots of them are IFR equipped. Yes I know they are not taildraggers but they would fit the bill nicely and they have 4 seats. Good all around flyer that will do all you are planning and then some. And yes I do fly a PA 28-140 and love it. Something faster would be nice but for now it does all I ask of it.
 
C140 definitely.
Depends on what you call "IFR".
Mine was IFR legal but only had a TC, a KLX 125 VFR GPS, and a VOR receiver.
Install the alternator kit. All that stuff kills batteries night in the pattern.

Very "light" IFR, mandatory partial panel. Not too comforting.
 
The champ is the most comfortable if you are a big guy. Don't worry about IFR yet. None of those airplane scream IFR to anybody. Get used to hand starting unless you do some paperwork and get an electric start Champ. They fly great, tube and fabric is a dying art so make sure your fabric is good before you buy one. It will teach you how to be a great pilot without ruining your wallet. The tailwheel endorsement is the most important. Rudder pedals are the key to good flying.
Best,
Brian
 
I always call a Cub "the Ford 8N of the air".

Hmm...or do I call a Ford 8N "the Piper Cub of the farm?"

Either way, way overpriced and with very little practicality or utility.

:)
 
Ron Levy said:
Besides learning to fly, what are you going to do with this plane? Or are you going to buy it to learn and then sell it when you get your license? If so, what do you expect to be flying then? And you mentioned IFR -- are you planning to continue on to your instrument rating?

Answer those questions and I'll have some suggestions.
Click to expand...

I mainly want a cheap learner plane that I can fly for pennies. I want to go all the way to a commercial eventually, so if its ifr it would be nice so i don't have to find another plane. Yes, I would definitely also use it as a fun / weekend plane. And I wouldn't plan on selling it unless I upgraded to an ifr plane.

A lot of people are enlightening me that ifr is pretty much hard to do with these planes and sounds like it would be a better idea to just find a 172 when i have enough money.
 
FormerHangie said:
Tomahawk, Grumman AA1B or AA1C, Cherokee 140, Grumman Traveler or Cheetah, Cessna 150/152.
Click to expand...

This is the correct answer.

But the real answer is to fly for 10 hours and make sure you're really committed to flying before you buy anything. I know a lot of extremely enthusiastic pilot wanna-bee's who fly for a few hours and walk away.
 
A Cessna 140 is an inexpensive, easy to learn in, airplane if you want to start small and trade up later.
 
soconnoriv said:
I mainly want a cheap learner plane that I can fly for pennies. I want to go all the way to a commercial eventually, so if its ifr it would be nice so i don't have to find another plane. Yes, I would definitely also use it as a fun / weekend plane. And I wouldn't plan on selling it unless I upgraded to an ifr plane.

A lot of people are enlightening me that ifr is pretty much hard to do with these planes and sounds like it would be a better idea to just find a 172 when i have enough money.
Click to expand...
That helps.

If you really want the plane to go all the way through commercial, it will have complex. In that case, since you don't seem to have any real payload/range requirements, the cheapest complex plane you can find would be best -- Piper Arrow, Cessna Cutlass, or Beech Sierra. However, that would be a bit of a stretch for your initial training, so instead I'd say get something in which you can do all but the complex training. My suggestion would be something in the 4-seat O-320-powered class, such as:

  • Cessna 172
  • Piper PA28-series (140/150/160 or Warrior)
  • Beech Sport (Model 19)
  • Grumman Traveler/Cheetah (AA-5/AA-5A)
I would recommend those of the planes you initially mentioned because they are much more suitable for instrument training. You'll have a hard time finding an instrument-capable C-140/J3/7AC, and the money you'd sink into one to make it instrument capable would be pretty much unrecoverable at selling time. OTOH, the planes I've suggested are pretty much expected to be IFR-capable, so you've more chance of finding one already IFR-ready, and recovering more of any investment necessary to make one IFR-suitable. You can do about 240 of the required 250 hours for commercial in one of those, and rent something complex for the last ten hours and the practical test. And they'll all be great for weekend flying including trips of up to 300 miles or so with another adult and plenty of baggage.

Some folks may suggest some of the O-200/235 2-seaters, but I'd recommend against that given the "weekend" plane use you mentioned. You'll find those planes generally can't hold two adults and any baggage at all with enough fuel to go more than around the pattern a few times. If you're thinking about any travel at all other than solo, they aren't up to the task. And yes, my first plane was one in that class, and I know whereof I speak.

As for which of the four types I mentioned to get, I'd say fly them all and then choose which you like best. While not all may be available for rent, you should be able to find someone with each type willing to go for a burger (your treat) and back so you can see if you like them.
 
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The Champ Manual specifically states in the procedures section:

For inadvertent flight into clouds

Do not fly this aircraft in clouds
 
Ron Levy said:
That helps.

If you really want the plane to go all the way through commercial, it will have complex. In that case, since you don't seem to have any real payload/range requirements, the cheapest complex plane you can find would be best -- Piper Arrow, Cessna Cutlass, or Beech Sierra.
Click to expand...

I think you forgot the Mooney M20B and the M20C. Particularly with the manual gear, they are by far the best low cost complex value on the market IMO. Priced below most Arrows and Cutlasses, faster and cheaper to maintain. You pretty much only buy the Sierra if a large, comfortable cabin is top priority.
 
I've not flown a 140, but I have flown the J-3 and the Champ. I liked the J-3 best of any airplane I've ever flown, but the Camp was pretty sweet also. I saw a J-3 once that had a six pack, nav/com, and transponder. That's just ridiculous IMHO. Lights, an electric starter, and perhaps one of those tiny VHF com radios that are also intercoms would be nice on either one, but that's the most electrical equipment I'd ever consider adding to either one.

And really, these airplanes don't need anything electrical.

Flying either one will make you a WAY better pilot than you would be without experience in a utility class tailwheel airplane with a powerful rudder and no flaps. Asiana could do worse than have their B777 pilots get ten hour of Cub or Champ time!

There's more to flying than just pushing buttons and turning knobs. Ask Air France.

As others have said, there is a premium on J-3s compared to Champs.

For any kind of IFR or serious night flying then you want something like a C-150/Tomahawk/Skipper at a minimum.

A Cardinal RG has a very respectable useful load and a very large cabin if you want one airplane to take you through the commercial, but that's an expensive airplane to fly compared to the others we've talked about here.
 
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My C150 may become available if the Mooney I'm going to look at next week is the One.
 
kyleb said:
The Tomahawk is relatively wide...
Click to expand...

Out of all the two seaters, I think the Tomahawk would make the best instrument platform. It was designed to act like a bigger airplane.

I have PIC time in Grumman AA1B's,, AA1C's, and Tomahawks, and a little bit of dual time in a 150, and of those, I'd give the 150 the poorest marks as a potential instrument platform. As far as those small taildraggers the OP mentioned, I can't imagine flying them in actual IFR conditions. All the four seaters mentioned would be fine. I have PIC time in the Cheetah and 172, and have been a back seat observer in Cherokee 140's and Warriors, and I think all would be fine in pretty much all of the conditions you'd be flying a light single in. Out of all of these, I think if you're looking for relatively low cost flying in an IFR equipped plane, that you'll have the easiest time finding a lower priced Cherokee 140. Warriors tend to go for a little more, Cheetahs are a little more scarce, and 172s seem to command a premium relative to the rest.

If it were me, I'd hold out for a Cheetah, but that's just personal preference.
 
kyleb said:
The Tomahawk is relatively wide...
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...but not enough useful load for more than about two hours of gas with two typical 21st century adults aboard. BTDT on an instrument training gig, and I only weigh 165 with clothing, headset, kneeboard, and iPad.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, I didn't forget. Payload and cabin size are the main reasons I skipped them and all the other 200HP complex singles.
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Well, one can argue cabin size as the backseat in the M20C and M20B are for kids only really, but in the front seats, somehow tall guys, short guys, even chubby guys manage. It is however a personal preference I guess.

The payload on the C is right in the ballpark. About 1000lbs useful and 600lbs payload. The B is a little worse as it has a heavier empty weight. Very much competitive in my mind and should be considered by anyone looking for a low cost complex plane.
 
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