135 ops ???????

Depends how far from the airport they go and/or if they are rotating through the people actually providing instruction.
 
$149 for a 60-minute sunset flight for two with champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries (a $375 value)


I think that knocks out any chance of instructing!!!!
 
TommyG said:
$149 for a 60-minute sunset flight for two with champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries (a $375 value)


I think that knocks out any chance of instructing!!!!
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As long as one of them is getting instruction (nothing says you can't take people with you) or stay within 25sm of the airport... Then again, they may have a 135 cert.
 
Henning said:
As long as one of them is getting instruction (nothing says you can't take people with you) or stay within 25sm of the airport... Then again, they may have a 135 cert.
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Just keep in mind that in order for a sightseeing flight within a 25sm radius of the airport to be legal under part 91, the provider needs to have an LOA from the FAA.
 
From kfrg where they operate out of to Koxc is 47 miles.

Positive Rate Gear Up
The licensed aviators at Positive Rate Gear Up command a trio of Piper aircraft, which they use during flying lessons and their own aerial jaunts. The squad includes seasoned veterans ranging from commercial airline pilots to recreational fliers, and takes on students who are working toward wings of their own. The club's nest at Republic Airport exposes trainees to a busy Class D airspace, allowing them to become accustomed to sharing the air and negotiating heavy traffic caused by 10-cloud pileups. The team also teaches discovery flights aimed at beginners that help them understand cockpit instrumentation and controls as they try their hand at a few aerial maneuvers.
 
GCA319 said:
Just keep in mind that in order for a sightseeing flight within a 25sm radius of the airport to be legal under part 91, the provider needs to have an LOA from the FAA.
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Correct -- see 91.147. As for the alleged "training", I think the FAA would hear that duck quacking rather loudly.
 
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Henning said:
Depends how far from the airport they go and/or if they are rotating through the people actually providing instruction.
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They offer a flight that's not non-stop. That eliminates the "sightseeing" exemption in part 119. If they scam this and call it flight instruction, the FAA still has rope to hang them with. They better meet all the requirements of instruction as well as not do any cross-country unless their "students" have at least a student pilot certificate. While this is very rarely worried about with serious flight instruction, that requirement is there to avoid this sort of "common carriage XC flight instruction."
 
GCA319 said:
Just keep in mind that in order for a sightseeing flight within a 25sm radius of the airport to be legal under part 91, the provider needs to have an LOA from the FAA.
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Pretty much every flight school I know, as well as many other private operators have one. This is pretty simple really, all you need is 100 hr inspections and a drug screen program which every industrial medicine clinic is ready to provide.
 
If you look at the whole adverstisement, it just looks bad for a flight school to do introductory flights is common and sold as introductory. But even sightseeing offering champagne and stopping at an airport 40 miles away for dinner, doesn't seem too good.
 
TommyG said:
If you look at the whole adverstisement, it just looks bad for a flight school to do introductory flights is common and sold as introductory. But even sightseeing offering champagne and stopping at an airport 40 miles away for dinner, doesn't seem too good.
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Do you know that they don't have a 135 certificate? Many flight schools do, the one I trained at did.
 
It sounds like they're trying to veil this as an introductory flight lesson. The pairing of up to six people, along with champagne and strawberries, is just begging them to get busted by the FSDO.

That said, Groupon is notorious for their poorly written ads. For all we know, the Groupon sales rep added some of the details, oblivious of part 135 limitations.
 
I'm wondering why everyone is assuming they don't have a 135 certificate, does anyone know that as a fact or is everyone talking out their asses?
 
Henning said:
Do you know that they don't have a 135 certificate? Many flight schools do, the one I trained at did.
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If they're doing this on a 135 certificate, then they're violating 135.115 when they let the passenger touch the controls.
 
They may be trying to pass off the first option as instruction while the other three are 135. Only the first option (for one person) includes manipulation of the controls and doesn't mention champagne. Although it's not something you would normally do, there's nothing illegal about giving the passengers some ground instruction before you take off.

Choose from Four Options

$109 for a 60-minute private flight experience for one (a $275 value)
Private flight experience includes headset rental, logbook, credit toward an FAA license, 30 minutes of ground instruction from a certified teacher, and a 60-minute instructional flight aboard an IFR-certified aircraft. While airborne, the instructor will hand over controls to the student for a few basic maneuvers.

$149 for a 60-minute sunset flight for two with champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries (a $375 value)
After 30 minutes of ground instruction on aircraft dynamics and cockpit instruments, pairs load up into the IFR-certified aircraft alongside their instructor for up to 60 minutes of soaring above Long Island—all while clinking champagne flutes and devouring chocolate-covered strawberries.

$249 for a three-hour sunset flight for two with champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries (a $695 value)

$399 for a three-hour sunset flight for four–six with champagne and chocolate-covered strawberries (a $1,390 value)

The three-hour experience includes the same flight components as the 60-minute flight, except the aircraft—or pair of aircraft for parties of four to six people—zooms toward Oxford, CT, where passengers deplane and enjoy dinner at 121 Restaurant. After their meal, passengers enjoy a return flight home. Dinner is not included with this Groupon.
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http://www.groupon.com/deals/positi...ate=20131230,s=body,c=deal_button,d=deal-page
 
Everskyward said:
They may be trying to pass off the first option as instruction while the other three are 135. Only the first option (for one person) includes manipulation of the controls and doesn't mention champagne.
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Only the last one (with the landing elsewhere) is definitely 135. The other two may only be 91.147 sightseeing rides if they stay close enough to the departure airport. And no matter what they say, I don't think the FAA will buy any but the first one as being flight training not requiring either a 135 certificate or a 91.147 LoA.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only the last one (with the landing elsewhere) is definitely 135. The other two may only be 91.147 sightseeing rides if they stay close enough to the departure airport. And no matter what they say, I don't think the FAA will buy any but the first one as being flight training not requiring either a 135 certificate or a 91.147 LoA.
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How is the first option much different than an intro flight? As long as they stay within the bounds of the regulations you have to give them credit for perhaps sparking some interest in aviation.
 
First option is ok as an intro flight. Second option is on the line of sightseeing flight, if you pushing the champagne to the potential pilot, that knocks them doing any flying out of the picture. Third option is a 135 op in my opinion.
 
Ron Levy said:
I did not say it was different. First option appears to be intro, second and third are at least 91.147, fourth is definitely 135.
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I read what you posted wrong, sorry.
 
Yep, I got one of those groupons inserted in my timeline today.
 
On option 1, wouldn't the "student" have to have a medical/student license before they could log the time?

On option 4, The FAA doesn't have any 135 cert. listed at Republic and none in NY with the name positive rate. There are 7 135 certs at Republic, none of which have any piper pistons.:dunno:
 
Alexb2000 said:
On option 1, wouldn't the "student" have to have a medical/student license before they could log the time?



On option 4, The FAA doesn't have any 135 cert. listed at Republic and none in NY with the name positive rate. There are 7 135 certs at Republic, none of which have any piper pistons.:dunno:
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You don't need a medical until you solo but you can log time before that.

It's possible that Positive Rate is just acting as a broker and some other company with a certificate is doing the 135 flights, but who knows. Sometimes charter is not as transparent to the purchaser as it might seem (or the FAA would like).
 
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Everskyward said:
You don't need a medical until you solo but you can log time before that.
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BZZT. Nope. You must have at least a student pilot certificate (nobody cares if it is a medical) to log cross country EVEN DUAL.

It's possible that Positive Rate is just acting as a broker and some other company with a certificate is doing the 135 flights, but who knows. Sometimes charter is not as transparent to the purchaser as it might seem (or the FAA would like).
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I'd believe that if they wrote it like some of the broker outfits I've seen. But they talk about "flying with our CFIs" and a bunch of other things that lead me to believe they are operating these flights under the sham of instruction. The fact that they have advertised these to masses on FACEBOOK AND GROUPON means I suspect they're going to attract the notice of the local FSDO pretty darn fast.
 
Here's there club site: http://positiverategearup.com

Other than the pictures of the "fleet" (though they do seem to have the aircraft registered to them, at least the one PA-28 I can see the entire N-number on) most of the pictures on the site appear to be of other things. There's pictures of a Cirrus cockpit (which they don't have one on the line).
 
flyingron said:
BZZT. Nope. You must have at least a student pilot certificate (nobody cares if it is a medical) to log cross country EVEN DUAL.
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Can you show me the part of 61.51 which says that? I cannot find it, and in 40 years as an instructor, I've never heard of that before.
 
Ron Levy said:
Can you show me the part of 61.51 which says that? I cannot find it, and in 40 years as an instructor, I've never heard of that before.
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As you know, it's not. Just more nonsense passed along as "a guy at the FSDO said..." or "a CFI told me..."
 
EdFred said:
As you know, it's not. Just more nonsense passed down from "a guy at the FSDO said..." or "a CFI told me..."
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I'd still like to know what makes FRon think it's so. The fact that he does suggests that there's either something in the regulations or guidance which needs clarification, or a problem with his understanding of the regulations or guidance which can be resolved through education.
 
flyingron said:
BZZT. Nope. You must have at least a student pilot certificate (nobody cares if it is a medical) to log cross country EVEN DUAL.
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What kind of nonsense is that?

Edit: I see others have already jumped on it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Can you show me the part of 61.51 which says that? I cannot find it, and in 40 years as an instructor, I've never heard of that before.
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Oops never mind. I forgot to read the exception in 61.1.
 
flyingron said:
Oops never mind. I forgot to read the exception in 61.1.
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What exception is that? And to what is that item in 61.1 making an exception? There is nothing in any regulation saying you need a pilot certificate to be able to log pilot time, flight time, instrument time or training received when in the company of an authorized instructor giving you training to which any exception need be made. In fact, I flew earlier this month in a Cessna 421 giving training to a pilot with no valid certificate at all (retraining for a 709 ride after expiration of his temporary certificate) -- and the FAA was perfectly happy with the log entry which conspicuously lacked any entry in the PIC column when they reviewed his log prior to the 709 ride.

Where the FAA has taken exception to operations like the one which started this thread is when the situation is clearly an attempt to end-run Part 135. An example is the outfit in South Florida which was offering "training" flights in a Cessna 421 to any destination you wanted with as many other passengers as the plane would hold without any prior pilot training/experience for the "trainee". That one is no longer operating. The first of the four advertised operations certainly appears to be a regular "discovery flight" operation, and appears completely legal. The others, however, appear to require additional FAA authorization and/or certification -- I doubt they'd view a flight in which the trainee is sipping alcoholic beverages as being a legitimate training flight.
 
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Everskyward said:
It's possible that Positive Rate is just acting as a broker and some other company with a certificate is doing the 135 flights, but who knows. Sometimes charter is not as transparent to the purchaser as it might seem (or the FAA would like).
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The chances of this being a 135 broker deal are slim to none.

The chances of this being cooked up by a flight-school manager without a FAA certificate or knowledge of the regs in an attempt to stand out among all the other 'intro flight for $99' deals on groupon is pretty high.
 
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Now, why do they have a picture of a swedish registered aircraft in their ad on groupon.......:rofl:
 
That brings up a good point. I know the PIC cannot have alcohol and I know it's against regs to carry drunk passengers in part 91. I am not sure if anything is preventing a student doing dual to not be drinking alcohol...as long as they are under the limit of drunk.
 
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