12 Seconds to Pattern Altitude

A fairly good-size gaggle of RV's gather on Saturday mornings at Cedar Mills Marina, a grass strip on the west end of Lake Texoma. Those guys must not have received Honeck's "fly like a doofus" memo, as they continue to fly their planes like most everybody else. Normal patterns, normal landings, normal takeoffs after breakfast, and I think most prefer their eggs over easy. Nice guys, nice little airplanes, just like it's supposed to be. One member of the group lives in my neighborhood and has an absolutely beautiful plane.
 
That's now at 60 hours in the RV, in 42 days. Five of those hours were sweating it out with a professional transition trainer.

This is on top of 19+ years of flying, with 1700+ hours and owning four aircraft. Oh, and being co-pilot with my wife for another 900 hours.

Tell you what -- you go fly your plane every day for 40+ days, practicing every maneuver in the book, and report back. Let us know if your proficiency doesn't improve, and if you're able to thread the needle with your plane in every situation.

I suspect your skills will be honed quite nicely. It's been a good experience for Mary and me.

I think we all like you, Zoom. From years back on the newsgroups. But, as you pat yourself on the back, please remember that you are only 1/2 a pilot until you get your instrument rating/ATP.

And, Z, you could use a refresher on aerodynamics.
 
A fairly good-size gaggle of RV's gather on Saturday mornings at Cedar Mills Marina, a grass strip on the west end of Lake Texoma. Those guys must not have received Honeck's "fly like a doofus" memo, as they continue to fly their planes like most everybody else. Normal patterns, normal landings, normal takeoffs after breakfast, and I think most prefer their eggs over easy. Nice guys, nice little airplanes, just like it's supposed to be. One member of the group lives in my neighborhood and has an absolutely beautiful plane.

Thanks Wayne! I'm glad to hear that not everyone here judges other pilots based on what they fly. I don't own an RV, but I sure know a lot of guys who do, and for the most part they are a stand up bunch of pilots who really know their stuff and fly with an incredible eye on safety. My 70 year old neighbor owns a couple of muscle cars, but that doesn't mean he's out street racing in the middle of town at night. He just likes high performance cars and drives them the speed limit. Imagine that.
 
My 911 thinks 70 is wide open :p

Thanks Wayne! I'm glad to hear that not everyone here judges other pilots based on what they fly. I don't own an RV, but I sure know a lot of guys who do, and for the most part they are a stand up bunch of pilots who really know their stuff and fly with an incredible eye on safety. My 70 year old neighbor owns a couple of muscle cars, but that doesn't mean he's out street racing in the middle of town at night. He just likes high performance cars and drives them the speed limit. Imagine that.
 
Thanks Wayne! I'm glad to hear that not everyone here judges other pilots based on what they fly. I don't own an RV, but I sure know a lot of guys who do, and for the most part they are a stand up bunch of pilots who really know their stuff and fly with an incredible eye on safety. My 70 year old neighbor owns a couple of muscle cars, but that doesn't mean he's out street racing in the middle of town at night. He just likes high performance cars and drives them the speed limit. Imagine that.

I haven't seen a ton of people on here who truly judge people based on what they fly.

But when you see people who are fitting the negative stereotypes, we do point it out. As Nate correctly noted, Jay fits the profile for the experimental NTSB report, and his posts are showing that more and more.
 
I understand that Vy is optimal. In a low performance aircraft, the difference between a Vy departure and any attempt at a zoom climb is substantial. But, of course, neither can you actually perform a zoom climb to altitude in (for example) a Skyhawk without using a very substantial amount of runway.

In something like an RV-8, however, the difference narrows substantially, simply because we are able to accelerate so quickly. The time it takes to accelerate to 140 KIAS is quite small, which means we are able to zoom climb quite quickly as well.

I don't have the numbers -- and won't until Mary and I go out with a stopwatch -- but I will bet the difference in time between a Vy climb and a zoom climb is inconsequential.

If nothing else, it will be fun to see. :D

Jay, this is patent nonsense. The laws of Physics don't change just because you're flying an RV. The thing isn't made out of pixie dust.

I have to agree that 50 hours in type is insufficient to explore the edge of the envelope in hobby type pilots like us. All that said, if I were flying that thing I'd do the same, I just wouldn't try and claim any safety aspect.

I really hope you go learn to do aerobatics, its what that thing was built for. And I hope you do them high up in the sky with lots and lots of altitude, in case you choke. I'm actually proud that you got the hot airplane and are doing this stuff. Life is short, and we're not getting any younger.
 
Safety question:

If I want to cross a runway to enter the downwind leg on the far side of the airport, Where and at what altitude should I cross the runway if there is an RV about to take off?

Seems like I may be doing something wrong assuming predictable departures in an airport environment.
I wouldn't !
 
Jaysus, Jay. you're totally lost it.

While your out proving to yourself how "safer" the zoom climb is, take note also of how much farther the end of the runways when you pull that throttle to idle after 12 seconds.

sigh....

Are you truly illiterate, or just deliberately trying to **** me off? Good grief.

Reed this reel slow, like:

50 posts ago (or so) I abandoned my initial contention that the zoom climb to pattern altitude was safer than a Vy climb to pattern altitude.

You are right. I was wrong.

Are you satisfied? :rolleyes:

Let's try this, as a modifier of my initial WRONG contention: "The zoom climb to altitude in the RV-8 reduces my exposure to the 'danger zone' of low altitude and low airspeed, as compared to flying my old low(er) performance Piper Pathfinder. This is accomplished by reducing my time spent in "the danger zone" from as long as 2 minutes (in the Pathfinder) to as little as 30 seconds in the RV-8A. This reduced amount of time during climb out reduces the risk inherent with an engine failure during climb out by reducing the amount of time spent low and slow."

More better?
 
Jay, this is patent nonsense. The laws of Physics don't change just because you're flying an RV. The thing isn't made out of pixie dust.

I have to agree that 50 hours in type is insufficient to explore the edge of the envelope in hobby type pilots like us. All that said, if I were flying that thing I'd do the same, I just wouldn't try and claim any safety aspect.

Jeebus effing Cripes. This thread is absolute, honest to Zeus, living proof that NO ONE READS OR COMPREHENDS ENGLISH ANYMORE.

Read the effing thread. Go back to the point where I concede the point that a zoom climb to pattern is no safer than a Vy climb to pattern altitude.

Report back after reading for comprehension.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

Get it?
 
"The zoom climb to altitude in the RV-8 reduces my exposure to the 'danger zone' of low altitude and low airspeed, as compared to flying my old low(er) performance Piper Pathfinder. This is accomplished by reducing my time spent in "the danger zone" from as long as 2 minutes (in the Pathfinder) to as little as 30 seconds in the RV-8A. This reduced amount of time during climb out reduces the risk inherent with an engine failure during climb out by reducing the amount of time spent low and slow."

Jay, I think it's statistically inconsequential. If you look up RV accidents vs. general GA accidents, I don't think you'll find the RVs any more successful when it comes to engine failures on takeoff. There are much more important factors here - pilot skill, training, awareness of surroundings, pre-planning, presence of mind, temperament, actual airport surroundings, type of airport you're taking off from, runway length, etc. By your logic, the Piper Cub must be way down on "safety" because of its inability to climb very fast. You're focusing on a negligible "safety" factor when there are much, much bigger fish to fry on the subject. Forget this "fast climb" stuff and think about the real reasons you might bust your ass in your RV...and how climbing fast won't help with those reasons.
 
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"No safer than" doesn't cut it.

Jeebus effing Cripes. This thread is absolute, honest to Zeus, living proof that NO ONE READS OR COMPREHENDS ENGLISH ANYMORE.

Read the effing thread. Go back to the point where I concede the point that a zoom climb to pattern is no safer than a Vy climb to pattern altitude.

Report back after reading for comprehension.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

I was wrong.

Get it?
 
Jay,

Might I suggest for your avatar a scaled down version of this...

Jim-Carrey-Dumb-And-Dumber-Twitter-Header-Banner.jpg


or this...

dumb-and-dumber-jd.jpg


...because......damn.
 
Are you truly illiterate, or just deliberately trying to **** me off? Good grief.

Reed this reel slow, like:

50 posts ago (or so) I abandoned my initial contention that the zoom climb to pattern altitude was safer than a Vy climb to pattern altitude.

You are right. I was wrong.

Are you satisfied? :rolleyes:

Let's try this, as a modifier of my initial WRONG contention: "The zoom climb to altitude in the RV-8 reduces my exposure to the 'danger zone' of low altitude and low airspeed, as compared to flying my old low(er) performance Piper Pathfinder. This is accomplished by reducing my time spent in "the danger zone" from as long as 2 minutes (in the Pathfinder) to as little as 30 seconds in the RV-8A. This reduced amount of time during climb out reduces the risk inherent with an engine failure during climb out by reducing the amount of time spent low and slow."

More better?

I'm not sure this is correct either. How heavy did the Pathfinder have to be to cause a 30 second climbout? Was that your typical mission with it? Were you closer to the field with a better glide ratio or further away.

I suspect you never did the numbers in the Pathfinder if you didn't do the numbers in the RV. Just a guess.

I also suspect there were lightly loaded days in the Pathfinder where your ability to do an air return was never in doubt whereas the RV at the same tick of the clock from wheels up, couldn't have made it back.

You're reminding me of a phrase a good troubleshooting engineer once taught me when someone said they "thought" something would work but hadn't tested or tried, ever...

"Are you a thinkin' man, or are you a knowin' man? How about we go test that in the lab before anyone does anything stupid to a Production machine."
 
A fairly good-size gaggle of RV's gather on Saturday mornings at Cedar Mills Marina, a grass strip on the west end of Lake Texoma. Those guys must not have received Honeck's "fly like a doofus" memo, as they continue to fly their planes like most everybody else. Normal patterns, normal landings, normal takeoffs after breakfast, and I think most prefer their eggs over easy. Nice guys, nice little airplanes, just like it's supposed to be. One member of the group lives in my neighborhood and has an absolutely beautiful plane.

I am relieved to read this. Perhaps there is a Midwest chapter I can join. The stigma is strong with these planes ... :rolleyes:
 
Tried that in the -10 at gross. Off in 1000'. 120 kts at the end of 5000'. Did not time the climb but pretty sure I would be in trouble without a field somewhere directly ahead if my engine quit at the numbers. Try pulling the mixture at a safe altitude while simulating a turning climb from the virtual "end of rwy". My airspeed decays rapidly. I think my safest bet is climbing out at 100-105 kts. Wear your safety goggles for that little bird that WILL penetrate your windshield.

This guy likes to fly low and fast...

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=77750

Here are some bird strike pics...

http://m1074.photobucket.com/albums/rv6aaviator/
From the first link, I thought this post seemed to sum up the atmosphere in that thread.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=587015&postcount=52

They seemed to speak about the issue, without being high and mighty, condescending, or resorting to personal attacks.

That was the first post I've read from that place, so maybe they're usually much harsher to each other, I really have no idea... but the atmosphere seemed refreshingly professional.

Maybe this is how you guys razz each other, I don't know.
 
FYI an old family friend was nearly killed when the dumba$$ pilot he was flying with attempted a to show off with a zoom climb that ended up in a departure stall when he held it too long. My friend recovered. The pilot was paralyzed from the waist down and has no control of his defecation or urination anymore. The NTSB report generously called it a "simulated short field takeoff"

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070612X00712&key=1
 
I am relieved to read this. Perhaps there is a Midwest chapter I can join. The stigma is strong with these planes ... :rolleyes:

That is a fact.

I am amazed at the ignorance and outright prejudice against experimental aircraft as illustrated in this thread, and elsewhere. I used to watch as GEICO was skewered here, for flying experimental aircraft, and thought perhaps it was something personal against him -- but now I see that it has little to do with personality or who is posting.

It's as if those who fly planes that take two minutes to climb to pattern altitude simply can't grasp, appreciate, or even truly understand what flying a plane that can do it in 30 seconds (or less) is like.

They froth at the mouth about how it's "unsafe" to climb so quickly, and how those "little planes and their silly pilots" are just "reckless". It's quite amazing to witness, after so many years of flying certificated aircraft.

It reminds me of the epic rec.aviation battles with people who ranted against using car gas in airplanes. I finally gave up the argument, and happily ran 12,000+ gallons of sweet 87 octane mogas through my airplanes, saving in excess of $20K, and extending the life of my engines.

You can't fix stupid.
 
"Are you a thinkin' man, or are you a knowin' man? How about we go test that in the lab before anyone does anything stupid to a Production machine."

Mary and I will be testing both departure methods with a stop watch, next chance we get.

We're selling tickets to this death-defying stunt, to all those who have never actually flown a plane that can climb better than 500 FPM. Watch in amazement as I move my wrist an incredible 10 degrees backwards, imparting a crushing +1 G on our bodies, nearly causing me to spill my coffee during this radical, aerobatic climb out! :rolleyes:
 
The amount of stupid you continue to post amazes me.
 
You can't fix stupid.

We've been trying, but you just aren't interested.

Gecko has never been skewered for flying an experimental, he's been skewered for having the same highly biased and irrational views that you're now showing. Wonder where that stigma comes from? And I haven't seen even him here defending you.

You're on my list of people I'd never fly with. Not that I think you'd want to fly with me anyway, but I just wouldn't get in a plane with you. I'd enjoy getting to fly with Liz or Chris in their RVs, though, and think it would be fun. I also know they are responsible and I don't expect to read NTSB reports about them.
 
That is a fact.

I am amazed at the ignorance and outright prejudice against experimental aircraft as illustrated in this thread, and elsewhere. I used to watch as GEICO was skewered here, for flying experimental aircraft, and thought perhaps it was something personal against him -- but now I see that it has little to do with personality or who is posting.
I fly Experimental aircraft -- how often do you see me being beat up over it? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I understand there isn't a silver bullet and also understand why people choose to fly what they fly.

Jay Honcek said:
It's as if those who fly planes that take two minutes to climb to pattern altitude simply can't grasp, appreciate, or even truly understand what flying a plane that can do it in 30 seconds (or less) is like.
This is where you're going so wrong Jay. A 2000 fpm climb rate is nothing that many of us don't experience on a regular basis in both certified and experimental aircraft. That's not F15 performance it's just better then what you're used to.

Jay Honeck said:
They froth at the mouth about how it's "unsafe" to climb so quickly, and how those "little planes and their silly pilots" are just "reckless". It's quite amazing to witness, after so many years of flying certificated aircraft.
No we froth at your absolute failure in both judgement and knowledge. You've posted things in this thread that are absolutely horribly wrong and never seem to be able to acknowledge that you have a lack of understand and knowledge when people correct you. You then continue to base your argument and decision making on your flawed knowledge. People try to help you and it's as if you don't actually read a single thing anyone else writes.

I just clicked Find more Posts by Jay Honeck. I scrolled through the results and see point after point you're making that is simply wrong...Let me show you a few:

Jay Honeck said:
Why 600'? Because in my transition training, I learned that I need 500' to make a 180 degree turn, power off.
Wrong.

Jay Honeck said:
Mary and I will be testing both departure methods with a stop watch, next chance we get.

We're selling tickets to this death-defying stunt, to all those who have never actually flown a plane that can climb better than 500 FPM. Watch in amazement as I move my wrist an incredible 10 degrees backwards, imparting a crushing +1 G on our bodies, nearly causing me to spill my coffee during this radical, aerobatic climb out!
If you were at 1G you wouldn't ever be able to start climbing. Many of us fly high performance aircraft. Wrong on both counts.

Jay Honeck said:
Let's try this, as a modifier of my initial WRONG contention: "The zoom climb to altitude in the RV-8 reduces my exposure to the 'danger zone' of low altitude and low airspeed, as compared to flying my old low(er) performance Piper Pathfinder. This is accomplished by reducing my time spent in "the danger zone" from as long as 2 minutes (in the Pathfinder) to as little as 30 seconds in the RV-8A. This reduced amount of time during climb out reduces the risk inherent with an engine failure during climb out by reducing the amount of time spent low and slow."
Once again, Wrong, you would reduce your time by even more if you just climbed out at Vy, since, that by it's nature, will get you the highest in the least amount of time.

Jay Honeck said:
Seriously, from standing start to pattern altitude, is not the "energy" used exactly the same in either departure method?

You're at full throttle in either departure method, which means it's simply a matter of which method gets you to altitude faster. The one that gets you to 1000' in the shortest number of seconds uses the least energy.
Jay Honeck said:
How is zooming to pattern altitude, versus grinding up to pattern altitude at Vy, "wasting" energy?

In theory, the energy needed is exactly the same.
Complete lack of understanding regarding physics and aerodynamics. You're making decisions that influence your safety and your passengers safety based on extremely flawed knowledge. Most people, once they understood this, would seek more training. Instead you just shove your head deeper into the sand.

Jay Honeck said:
We've put 51 hours on it, in just six weeks. This includes ten hours (5 apiece) of pretty intensive transition training. Both of us can pretty much thread the needle with "Amelia", now, after so much in-cockpit time.
Your posts indicate that perhaps you could use some more training, starting with aeronautical decision making, aerodynamics, and whatever it takes to gain a better understanding of your airplanes performance. You seem to think you have it mastered but if I scroll through your posts nearly every one of them is wrong. You can either look at that, realize you should make a few changes, or continue to pound your head deeper into the sand.

None of us are saying what we're saying to be mean. We're saying what we're saying because we see you writing the wrong thing after the wrong thing after the wrong thing and then making decisions based on your incorrect knowledge. That's a recipe for disaster.

51 hours in type, 60 hours in type, that's not jack.

You also seem to think that none of us have flown anything but 500 fpm airplanes. Many of us have flown aircraft that will easily outperform your RV. It's not a high performance aircraft. 200 mph is not insanely fast. 2000 fpm climbs isn't anything special.

When you see a lot of experienced pilots that have flown a lot of aircraft in a lot of scenarios all trying to tell you the same thing you really should damn well listen. But that's you're problem. I've never seen you listen. You don't ever take anything anyone else writes seriously you just treat it as them attacking you and hold your ground even firmer. Sad really.

For starters. Stare at this until you understand it:
Drag_Curve_2.jpg


Jay Honeck said:
You can't fix stupid.
Indeed.
 
And while staring at Jessie's graph, keep in mind that VY is more or less at that minimum drag point, as it take power to overcome drag and excess power to climb, so less drag = more surplus power = greater climb rate

A little over simplified but...
 
And while staring at Jessie's graph, keep in mind that VY is more or less at that minimum drag point, as it take power to overcome drag and excess power to climb, so less drag = more surplus power = greater climb rate

A little over simplified but...

It's also the reason they don't launch orbital rockets horizontally.
 
Jay, says me do what you want, you're a big boy. Mary is a seasoned pilot and can make her own decisions. If she's good for it, then why not.

I ride a high powered racing motorcycle, far less safe than driving a cage. I won't try and rationalize it, I like bikes and won't ever stop unless someone makes me. If we all did the safe thing all the time life'd be boring.

Jessie loves his airplane, and it looks neat to me. But I wouldn't fly an aircraft for which I really felt I needed a parachute. He does, and I have no doubt that he is a far superior pilot to yours truly. Difference of opinion, and who am I to judge?

I've said over and over that these RV's have this stereotype because they can do all this stuff. If I had one I'd probably be doing likewise. I don't know if I would protest as vigorously, I do what I want and if it is more dangerous, so what? It's my six.

By the way, I've seen flying at a POA get together by pilots in this thread that I would regard as less safe than my normal habits. But the pilots were in control, obviously well briefed and pulled it off without a hitch. Again, who am I to judge?
 
Experimental's don't get a bad wrap around here. Some wanna'be fighter pilots do though...


This has nothing to do with that magical RV8, and everything to do with bad judgment and a lack of understanding of what is really happening. Do it if you want, but stop trying to convince everyone else that it is the right way.
 
Experimental's don't get a bad wrap around here. Some wanna'be fighter pilots do though...


This has nothing to do with that magical RV8, and everything to do with bad judgment and a lack of understanding of what is really happening. Do it if you want, but stop trying to convince everyone else that it is the right way.

Whatever. The attitudes on display here are toxic, and have absolutely nothing to do with my "judgment", "safety", "experience", or "knowledge".

When it becomes impossible to rationally discuss two VERY simple and safe departure options, when it devolves into "I would never fly with YOU" childish nonsense, and when it becomes impossible to admit that you were wrong, without the bashing continuing, it's pretty obvious what's happening. It's sad, but this caustic attitude has become the hallmark of many parts of the dying aviation world, and IMHO explains why so few people enter the GA world nowadays.

Have fun and fly safe.
 
They froth at the mouth about how it's "unsafe" to climb so quickly, and how those "little planes and their silly pilots" are just "reckless". It's quite amazing to witness, after so many years of flying certificated aircraft.

Guys stop with all the jealousy of Jay's tricycle RV-8 and his whopping 60 hrs in it! None of you can dream of flying something as high performance as an RV-8A. Y'all just don't understand! Jay is the only reasonable man on the internet! Do you understand how experienced he is, and how inexperienced all the rest of you are?? The rest of you must live on Mars or something. ;););)

Jay...holy moses. Re: above - you are once again so far off base with your childish assumptions that you and your posts have become a freak show. Here's an avatar for ya -

28uljzk.jpg
 
I fly Experimental aircraft -- how often do you see me being beat up over it? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I understand there isn't a silver bullet and also understand why people choose to fly what they fly.


This is where you're going so wrong Jay. A 2000 fpm climb rate is nothing that many of us don't experience on a regular basis in both certified and experimental aircraft. That's not F15 performance it's just better then what you're used to.


No we froth at your absolute failure in both judgement and knowledge. You've posted things in this thread that are absolutely horribly wrong and never seem to be able to acknowledge that you have a lack of understand and knowledge when people correct you. You then continue to base your argument and decision making on your flawed knowledge. People try to help you and it's as if you don't actually read a single thing anyone else writes.

I just clicked Find more Posts by Jay Honeck. I scrolled through the results and see point after point you're making that is simply wrong...Let me show you a few:


Wrong.


If you were at 1G you wouldn't ever be able to start climbing. Many of us fly high performance aircraft. Wrong on both counts.


Once again, Wrong, you would reduce your time by even more if you just climbed out at Vy, since, that by it's nature, will get you the highest in the least amount of time.



Complete lack of understanding regarding physics and aerodynamics. You're making decisions that influence your safety and your passengers safety based on extremely flawed knowledge. Most people, once they understood this, would seek more training. Instead you just shove your head deeper into the sand.


Your posts indicate that perhaps you could use some more training, starting with aeronautical decision making, aerodynamics, and whatever it takes to gain a better understanding of your airplanes performance. You seem to think you have it mastered but if I scroll through your posts nearly every one of them is wrong. You can either look at that, realize you should make a few changes, or continue to pound your head deeper into the sand.

None of us are saying what we're saying to be mean. We're saying what we're saying because we see you writing the wrong thing after the wrong thing after the wrong thing and then making decisions based on your incorrect knowledge. That's a recipe for disaster.

51 hours in type, 60 hours in type, that's not jack.

You also seem to think that none of us have flown anything but 500 fpm airplanes. Many of us have flown aircraft that will easily outperform your RV. It's not a high performance aircraft. 200 mph is not insanely fast. 2000 fpm climbs isn't anything special.

When you see a lot of experienced pilots that have flown a lot of aircraft in a lot of scenarios all trying to tell you the same thing you really should damn well listen. But that's you're problem. I've never seen you listen. You don't ever take anything anyone else writes seriously you just treat it as them attacking you and hold your ground even firmer. Sad really.

For starters. Stare at this until you understand it:
Drag_Curve_2.jpg


Indeed.

It always amazes me when I read posts like this. Were it not for the factual errors (12 seconds to 1000' AGL is WHAT rate of climb again, Mr. Math? :D ), I would applaud you for a post that must have taken quite some doing to assemble.

Tell me, Jesse -- what part of "I conceded your point on Vy 60 posts ago" did you miss? There's no need to be nasty.

Whatever. This thread ran its course long ago. Fly safe!
 
It always amazes me when I read posts like this. Were it not for the factual errors (12 seconds to 1000' AGL is WHAT rate of climb again, Mr. Math? :D ), I would applaud you for a post that must have taken quite some doing to assemble.
You seem to confuse yourself Jay. That would indeed by 5000 fpm (which a RV-8A is not capable of for any length of time) but 5000 fpm doesn't exactly count when you have to sit there in ground effect building a bunch of speed while fast and low to be able to do such a thing.

It's about exposure time.

You, of course know that, since you just said above:
Jay Honeck said:
This is accomplished by reducing my time spent in "the danger zone" from as long as 2 minutes (in the Pathfinder) to as little as 30 seconds in the RV-8A.
There you state 30 seconds. 30 seconds would be 1,980 fpm, which is what my post was based on.

Jay Honeck said:
Tell me, Jesse -- what part of "I conceded your point on Vy 60 posts ago" did you miss? There's no need to be nasty.

Whatever. This thread ran its course long ago. Fly safe!
Say what you'd like but you're the one still throwing stones, stomping your feet, and failing to understand the reality of what you're doing and making your decisions based on that instead of your previously false assumptions.

A RV-8 is what, a 1600 fpm sea level plane at gross with 180 hp on a good day? That's decent performance but not fighter jet style. If you want to take advantage of the increased safety of your bird's better performance like you say then do that. Shrinking your margins then claiming you're doing it in the name of safety is what concerns people.

None of this has anything to do with your flying an Experimental or a RV it's had to do with your hazardous attitudes and you'd catch the same flack even if you were in a certified (and there are certified sport planes that will fly circles around a RV-8A).
 
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I am amazed at the ignorance and outright prejudice against experimental aircraft as illustrated in this thread, and elsewhere.

You are quick to yell "ignorance" when someone disputes what your EAB will do or is suppose to do. However a large number of the people that question have far more experience than you and a few others will ever achieve in your lifetime.

It's as if those who fly planes that take two minutes to climb to pattern altitude simply can't grasp, appreciate, or even truly understand what flying a plane that can do it in 30 seconds (or less) is like.

Myself and others have flown airplanes that are far more advanced and will far outpace your RV in performance and we do understand what is going on, it's you that refuses to accept reality.

They froth at the mouth about how it's "unsafe" to climb so quickly, and how those "little planes and their silly pilots" are just "reckless". It's quite amazing to witness, after so many years of flying certificated aircraft.

Truth of the matter is if you came on here and started posting your new found "safety" procedure as to what you are doing in the Piper you would have meet the same result.


You can't fix stupid.

Et tu Jay?
 
Guys stop with all the jealousy of Jay's tricycle RV-8 and his whopping 60 hrs in it! None of you can dream of flying something as high performance as an RV-8A. Y'all just don't understand! Jay is the only reasonable man on the internet! Do you understand how experienced he is, and how inexperienced all the rest of you are?? The rest of you must live on Mars or something. ;););)

Jay...holy moses. Re: above - you are once again so far off base with your childish assumptions that you and your posts have become a freak show. Here's an avatar for ya -

28uljzk.jpg

Is that where the phrase "Half Cocked Honeck" came from? :rolleyes:
 
I fly Experimental aircraft -- how often do you see me being beat up over it? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I understand there isn't a silver bullet and also understand why people choose to fly what they fly.


This is where you're going so wrong Jay. A 2000 fpm climb rate is nothing that many of us don't experience on a regular basis in both certified and experimental aircraft. That's not F15 performance it's just better then what you're used to.


No we froth at your absolute failure in both judgement and knowledge. You've posted things in this thread that are absolutely horribly wrong and never seem to be able to acknowledge that you have a lack of understand and knowledge when people correct you. You then continue to base your argument and decision making on your flawed knowledge. People try to help you and it's as if you don't actually read a single thing anyone else writes.

I just clicked Find more Posts by Jay Honeck. I scrolled through the results and see point after point you're making that is simply wrong...Let me show you a few:


Wrong.


If you were at 1G you wouldn't ever be able to start climbing. Many of us fly high performance aircraft. Wrong on both counts.


Once again, Wrong, you would reduce your time by even more if you just climbed out at Vy, since, that by it's nature, will get you the highest in the least amount of time.



Complete lack of understanding regarding physics and aerodynamics. You're making decisions that influence your safety and your passengers safety based on extremely flawed knowledge. Most people, once they understood this, would seek more training. Instead you just shove your head deeper into the sand.


Your posts indicate that perhaps you could use some more training, starting with aeronautical decision making, aerodynamics, and whatever it takes to gain a better understanding of your airplanes performance. You seem to think you have it mastered but if I scroll through your posts nearly every one of them is wrong. You can either look at that, realize you should make a few changes, or continue to pound your head deeper into the sand.

None of us are saying what we're saying to be mean. We're saying what we're saying because we see you writing the wrong thing after the wrong thing after the wrong thing and then making decisions based on your incorrect knowledge. That's a recipe for disaster.

51 hours in type, 60 hours in type, that's not jack.

You also seem to think that none of us have flown anything but 500 fpm airplanes. Many of us have flown aircraft that will easily outperform your RV. It's not a high performance aircraft. 200 mph is not insanely fast. 2000 fpm climbs isn't anything special.

When you see a lot of experienced pilots that have flown a lot of aircraft in a lot of scenarios all trying to tell you the same thing you really should damn well listen. But that's you're problem. I've never seen you listen. You don't ever take anything anyone else writes seriously you just treat it as them attacking you and hold your ground even firmer. Sad really.

For starters. Stare at this until you understand it:
Drag_Curve_2.jpg


Indeed.


Probably the best post in this thread. :thumbsup:
 
That is a fact.

I am amazed at the ignorance and outright prejudice against experimental aircraft as illustrated in this thread, and elsewhere. I used to watch as GEICO was skewered here, for flying experimental aircraft, and thought perhaps it was something personal against him -- but now I see that it has little to do with personality or who is posting.

It's as if those who fly planes that take two minutes to climb to pattern altitude simply can't grasp, appreciate, or even truly understand what flying a plane that can do it in 30 seconds (or less) is like.

They froth at the mouth about how it's "unsafe" to climb so quickly, and how those "little planes and their silly pilots" are just "reckless". It's quite amazing to witness, after so many years of flying certificated aircraft.

It reminds me of the epic rec.aviation battles with people who ranted against using car gas in airplanes. I finally gave up the argument, and happily ran 12,000+ gallons of sweet 87 octane mogas through my airplanes, saving in excess of $20K, and extending the life of my engines.

You can't fix stupid.

You seem to have turned into someone who comes here seeking to argue, instead of seeking to understand. There are a couple of dozen posters who have tried to educate you in this thread, and at the beginning, they were very polite. Yet, you pulled most of them down into a mud wrassling contest because <apparently> you weren't willing to learn anything, you just wanted to argue. Never, not once in the thread, did you say "Hey, thanks, I learned something..."

Be careful, you don't want to be *that* guy.
 
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