100LL price killing GA

brien23

brien23

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Brien
Auto gas has been down a long time now and 100LL still is over $5 a gal, is the high price of 100LL killing GA. Everything in GA seems to be going up at a faster rate than most other consumer goods, sticker shock on replacement parts for aircraft. If you have a Bonanza they seem to be leading the race to the top of price for parts. How many more hits can GA take before people bail and those left are stuck with something they can't sell, as people have moved on to something else.
 
You could always move down by me, 6PC, Spike, and JohnCranford
 

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3.96 - 5.57 per gallon here depending on which FBO

still cheaper than my boat.

I get 3mpg at $3.00 for non ethanol in the boat at cruise, I was getting 1mpg in the bigger twin engine boat I used to have.

a 172 should be doing 9-10gph at 110kts. that's around 12mpg.

Flying is more fun also.
 
100LL isn't the primary factor.

Everything else is. Oh. You want your PPL? Have 10k lying around? 100/hr for mandatory maintenance... with a flat rate mandatory annual inspection at least 1700 bucks. Oh, something is found wrong during that inspection? Parts are prohibitively expensive because they're "aviation" nuts and bolts made in the exact same factory using the exact same materials as the Home Depot nuts and bolts. Want to upgrade anything? Well you get to pay double what the experimental guys are paying, and you have to get someone special with special pricing to do it and sign it off. Assuming that thing you want to upgrade has an aviation certified upgrade path sanctioned by the FAA.

100LL price is far down the list.
 
It's because they sell so little of it. That and the lack of competition.

Go price a 30 gallon water heater. Then price a 40 gallon water heater. The 30 gallon is more expensive. Why? They don't make as many 30 gallon water heaters.

If they made 100,000 Cessna 172's a year (like they do Ford Taurus's), I suspect they would cost about the same, maybe less, than a Ford Taurus. They have fewer parts. They weigh less.
 
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$3.99 a gallon here and I am feeding 5 airplanes. I found a local place that is just starting to carry non ethanol super unleaded. If it is way cheaper I may start buying some of that.
 
It averages about 4.00$/gal around here right now.
 
$3.60 full service here..where are you at? And are you buying at the big box fbo's?
 
brien23 said:
Auto gas has been down a long time now and 100LL still is over $5 a gal, is the high price of 100LL killing GA. Everything in GA seems to be going up at a faster rate than most other consumer goods, sticker shock on replacement parts for aircraft. If you have a Bonanza they seem to be leading the race to the top of price for parts. How many more hits can GA take before people bail and those left are stuck with something they can't sell, as people have moved on to something else.
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Depends where you are, paid 3.65 a couple of weeks ago. And it's usually by airport, not area of the country. If you think about it, in the grand scheme of things, another couple bucks per hour for fuel isn't going to kill GA at all. If you look at the big picture and all the other costs, that's a drop in the bucket
 
I bought 100LL today for $3.77. Mogas around here is around $2.05 or so right now, but has ethanol in it.
 
I'm thinking that with 100LL at $6 a gallon a couple years back we're looking at good times now. I'd love to see it lower but considering the market size and the fact that only one refinery is making it we're lucky it still exists. I'm just happy to be paying $4 instead of $6.

Frank
 
What kills it for anyone is the price per hour, whether owned or rented.

In the $99/hr (wet) C152 that I rented, fuel at 6gal/hr is like 25-30% of the cost. When an instructor rode along ($44/hr), fuel was 17-20% of the total cost.

It's the other 70-80% of the cost that makes me grit my teeth when I grab my wallet and hand over my credit card to the FBO.
 
$2,000/year maintenance & annual(if lucky)
$1000/year insurance
$2000/year storage of the beast
$2000/year avg for charts/navigator subscriptions, misc paraphernalia, and those "must have" upgrades
$3000/year in interest or returns on investments not realized because you sunk your money into a dumb airplane
A $20-30,000 engine rebuild quietly stalking you in your dreams


I'm not even worried about the gas at this point.
 
Given that 100LL is a small portion of refinery output it is not surprising it costs more. OTOH, it is not surprising some FBO's take advantage of their customers. One could expect higher prices where the cost of living is higher but in the boonies it is usually priced reasonably.
 
Aero Services - Atlantic Aviation
Fuel Prices (100LL )
100LL Prices
Self Service Full Service
- $6.50

Juneau AK price
 
Norman said:
Given that 100LL is a small portion of refinery output it is not surprising it costs more. OTOH, it is not surprising some FBO's take advantage of their customers. One could expect higher prices where the cost of living is higher but in the boonies it is usually priced reasonably.
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There is somewhat of a regional effect with this too. Look at where the posters with cheap gas are located and you can see there is a general trend. Despite being in rural America, the upper Midwest seems to still have high gas prices compared to other parts of the country. I'm not real sure why our gas up here is still so expensive, but it is.
 
I started flying in 1990. 100ll was about $2.25/gal. Adjusted for inflation,it would be $4.19. Currently at MKC, it's about 3.85/gal.

Rental price, however, has way outpaced inflation.
 
Late 1969 gas 80 red stuff $.50, gas 100 blue about the same $.50, and 115/145 purple a little more and Jet A $.15 a gal.
 
brien23 said:
North of Seattle all above $5 gal
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I hate to say this because I like people thinking we stupid down here in MS and stay away...but cmon down south..cheap fuel, $125 a month electric door all to myself t hangar, good weather. But don't let that secret out..we are dumb fat hillbillies down here just to get that straight. Hahaha

Not sure this fits here but on instagran cirrus put up a they are looking for workers for a dream job. Well the plant is in ND I beleive...might be a dream job but far far from a dream location. I like warm...it's almost too cold here in North MS.

Edit: and GA is very much alive here.
 
It's not fuel, maintenance, insurance, hangars, chart subscriptions etc. It is the lawyers!
Why is ADSB so expensive? Lawyers at the FAA insist that despite a proven track record with the experimentals, that like someone said "go to Home Depot, but for the lawyers.
I just attended an IA renewal seminar put on by the FSDO and the subject of 337's came up and the Fed I was speaking to said "don't even send one in without a complete and detailed Alternate Means of Compliance and detailed notes on drawings etc. because we will not approve them anyway. He said that engineering had taken over and everything had to be approved by them. It's all legal jargon. Gone is ingenuity
 
AKBill said:
I remember paying $1.25 /liter in Canada 1998
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So
$4.75 gal in 98'

Adjusted for inflation is over $7gal, adjust for currency is $5.25

Gotta love socalism lol
 
MD11Pilot said:
"don't even send one in without a complete and detailed Alternate Means of Compliance and detailed notes on drawings etc. because we will not approve them anyway. He said that engineering had taken over and everything had to be approved by them.
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Sounds like your beef is with the engineers!
 
MD11Pilot said:
I just attended an IA renewal seminar put on by the FSDO and the subject of 337's came up and the Fed I was speaking to said "don't even send one in without a complete and detailed Alternate Means of Compliance and detailed notes on drawings etc. because we will not approve them anyway. He said that engineering had taken over and everything had to be approved by them. It's all legal jargon. Gone is ingenuity
Click to expand...

A little off topic but I'll bite, guess I'm a little lucky at least in the past the local FSDO here seems to work with the IA's well, regarding 337's
 
AKBill said:
I remember paying $1.25 /liter in Canada 1998
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How much do you suppose $1.25 in 1998 Canadian Dollars per liter would be in 2017 American dollars per gallon?
 
100LL prices is why I don't really want my Dad to buy a plane that needs it. He's called the fuel dealer near him and said he could get 91 octane ethanol-free gas for less than $3 a gallon.

Of course if ya go on a long trip you'll likely have to buy 100LL at some point but usually a long trip allows you to better plan for a stop at airports with cheaper gas. My last 1700 mile trip worked out great that way, thankfully my plane holds a lot of gas, over 5 hours worth.
 
Doesn't the FAA exist so that aircraft can be insured?
 
It's not fuel, maintenance, insurance, hangars, chart subscriptions etc. It is the lawyers!
Why is ADSB so expensive? Lawyers at the FAA insist that despite a proven track record with the experimentals, that like someone said "go to Home Depot, but for the lawyers.
I just attended an IA renewal seminar put on by the FSDO and the subject of 337's came up and the Fed I was speaking to said "don't even send one in without a complete and detailed Alternate Means of Compliance and detailed notes on drawings etc. because we will not approve them anyway. He said that engineering had taken over and everything had to be approved by them. It's all legal jargon. Gone is ingenuity
 
Reply to above

Engineers! No beef except with the fed ones.
FSDO...they want to work with us but for the lawyers

My whole point is it is not the engineering, it is not the FSDO, it is the lawyers who view everything from a blame the mechanic or pilot so they can say "we told them in 10000 words what to do.
 
brien23 said:
Late 1969 gas 80 red stuff $.50, gas 100 blue about the same $.50, and 115/145 purple a little more and Jet A $.15 a gal.
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Adjusted for inflation, that's $3.32/gallon. So...not too far off of where it is now.
 
The problem is Salaries haven't been adjusted for inflation... While gas has little impact on my aviation time, a required engine overhaul would have me down for several years.
 
I don't know, I've been pretty happy with the stability of gas prices over the last couple of years. For a while there gas prices were going up every time a new fuel truck came by. Seems like they've been holding really steady at least in my part of the country.

I will be flying from Oklahoma to Florida for Sun N Fun this year, and expect my average fuel price to be about $3.50 along the route. (Don't tell @simtech , but my mid-way stop is going to be in Mississippi...)
 
It's $5.50 fs at my home field and $3.90 ss at the field 12nm away... :yikes: I don't mind pumping...:yes: I don't think it killing it but, I'm sure there would be more activity if it were cheaper...
 
Ouch...where are you located. My home field is about $3.89.
 
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