FlexJet - SWA Runway Incursion MDW 2/25/2025

flyingron

flyingron

Administrator
Management Council Member
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
25,313
Location
Catawba, NC
Display Name
Display name:
FlyingRon
FlexJet caused a SWA 730 to have to go around at MDW. Crossed onto the runway without authorization (bad ground communications):

https://archive.liveatc.net/kmdw/KMDW-Gnd1-Feb-25-2025-1430Z.mp3 @ around 16:00



FJ: Flexjet 560 Signature with Tango, Taxi
GND: Flexjet 560 Departure Frequency 119.35 Runway 22L.... What taxiway are you coming out of?
FJ: We're over at Whiskey, FlexJet 560
GND: FlexJet 560 roger. Taxi via Foxtrot and hold short of runway 22R Plan for runway 22L
FJ: OK Planning for 22L Flexjet 560
FJ: [asks something but is stepped on]
FJ: And Ground Flexjet 560 Just wanted to confirm our taxi instructions for 22L from Signature.
GND: Where on the ramp are you?
FJ: We're at Signature Avation at Alpha ah Taxi
GND: Taxi Alpha, Foxtrot, Hold short 22R.
FJ: Alpha, Fox, Hold Short 22R. Flexjet 560
GND: Flexjet 560 turn left on runway 4L Cross Runway 31L and hold short of 31C.
FJ: OK, left on 4L, cross 22, uh 13C FlexJet 560
GND: FlexJet 560 Negative cross runway 31L, hold short runway 31C.
FJ: Cross 31L hold short 31C FlexJet 560
GND: [while being talked over by another aircraft] Flexjet 560 hold short FlexJet 560
GND: FlexJet 560 Hold your position there.
GND: FLexJet 560 continue across the hold short hold short of hotel.
GND: FlexJet your instructions were to hold short of 31C.
GND: FlexJet 560 hold your position there sir don't move.
GND: FlexJet 560 possible pilot deviation. Advise you contact Midway Tower at a number. Advise when ready to copy.
 
Last edited:
Look left, look right for traffic...I mean this is basic pilot training and there's just not one of them.
 
I’m just a 182 pilot out of a small airport but I thought about 3-4 years ago the rules changed that year always had to hold short before crossing a runway. Looks like he blew right through even though he was explicitly told to hold short.

If my memory is correct I’d think it would become second nature to stop at any crossing.
 
luvflyin said:
When did they close 13L/31R and why?
Click to expand...
Started in Feburary of 2024. They are recycling it into a taxiway (Hotel), de-ice pad, and additional parking. My guess is that the three runways are so close together, they're not getting any real utility out of having them all technically operational. Cost estimate for the decommissioning is $79 million. Should be done by April.
 
31L is half the width of the other two runways. Wonder is the visual picture is going to be a part of this. Mistook 31L for a parallel taxiway.
 
Last edited:
Tom-Flying said:
I’m just a 182 pilot out of a small airport but I thought about 3-4 years ago the rules changed that year always had to hold short before crossing a runway. Looks like he blew right through even though he was explicitly told to hold short.

If my memory is correct I’d think it would become second nature to stop at any crossing.
Click to expand...
No such rule exists. They can clear you to cross a runway at the start of your taxi, as they did in this case.
 
Kent Wien said:
No such rule exists. They can clear you to cross a runway at the start of your taxi, as they did in this case.
Click to expand...
Yes, what changed was that it used to be a clearance to taxi to allowed you to cross any runways OTHER than the one you were cleared to. Now they must specifically tell you to cross or hold at each one.
 
Yikes. That was close to being real bad. Good on Southwest. Read the charts, know the layout, and anything that is unusual. Like the skinny little runway you taxi next to for a while.
 
"Southwest 730, touch and go Runway 31C, request closed traffic"

Having flown into Midway, it is definitely an airport you have to be on your A game. So many intersecting runways and taxiways, very easy to concentrate on trying to cross one and accidentally cross another, and if it is SWA push time, the radio is non-stop. No excuse for the Flexjet crew, though. This is a mistake you can't afford to make.
 
Chicago Midway International Airport (MDW) remains one of the most dangerous airports in the United States. This is due to its complex runways, busy location, and history of safety incidents...
 
Baked Potato said:
View attachment 138488

For four years those very people repeatedly told us these events were due to DEI. If they wanted the reins so bad they can tolerate being the acronym-of-blame du jour.
Click to expand...
I have this general recurring feeling ( with no real solid evidence to back it up ) that things just never recovered after Covid and , while mostly back to normal, stuff just does not work as well as it did before Covid.
 
Warmi said:
I have this general recurring feeling ( with no real solid evidence to back it up ) that things just never recovered after Covid and , while mostly back to normal, stuff just does not work as well as it did before Covid.
Click to expand...
Yes, fully agreed. However that kind of stuff doesn't get as many clicks (or votes) as blaming someone you hate instead.
 
Daleandee said:
Seriously bad. We were discussing on another thread the use of windows. I don't really see how a pilot could miss seeing that large chunk of brightly colored aluminum barreling down on them unless they didn't bother to use the windows ...
Click to expand...
If they've been looking out the windows, they would have seen the runway signs, and known where they were crossing.
 
flyingron said:
Yes, what changed was that it used to be a clearance to taxi to allowed you to cross any runways OTHER than the one you were cleared to. Now they must specifically tell you to cross or hold at each one.
Click to expand...
Yes! That’s what I was trying to remember.
 
Baked Potato said:
View attachment 138488

For four years those very people repeatedly told us these events were due to DEI. If they wanted the reins so bad then surely they can tolerate being the acronym-of-blame du jour.
Click to expand...
If we're throwing darts at the political cause dartboard, then this one is much more likely to hit DEI than DOGE. There's actually a plausible explanation for how DEI could be a factor. But at this point it's 100% speculation.
 
Lindberg said:
If we're throwing darts at the political cause dartboard, then this one is much more likely to hit DEI than DOGE. There's actually a plausible explanation for how DEI could be a factor. But at this point it's 100% speculation.
Click to expand...
I'm not casting blame either way. I'm just breaking out the world's tiniest violin for the people who are going to be blamed for any minor or major mishap that will happen over the next four years, for the reason stated above, when safety stats don't get any better..
 
It's been a tough month in Lake Woebegon, where not all the children are above average....sigh.

Jan 29 DCA
Toronto Pearson Delta RJ landing
Marana (Avra Valley) Midair
Jan 31, Philly -medical air transport
Grand Caravan Unalakleet to Nome
Scottsdale Feb 10 (Lear, and Gulfstream on the ramp)

And that was one "index event" for sure....

N
 
FPK1 said:
Chicago Midway International Airport (MDW) remains one of the most dangerous airports in the United States. This is due to its complex runways, busy location, and history of safety incidents...
Click to expand...
Seems crazy. That's where I learned to fly in 1979.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that the certificates of the FlexJet pilots should be revoked?
 
One thing pointed out on another board, there are no hold short markings on Runway 4L at either Runway 31L or 31C. Still doesn't absolve the Flexjet crew, but is a contributing factor.

Using 4L as a taxiway honestly seems like poor procedure, lack of these markings for one. The FAA in Airport Design discourages taxiway crosses near the "high speed" portion of the runway, approximately the center third or half. There isn't a parallel to 4L probably for that reason, so ATC just uses the runway.

Like the DC crash, normalization of deviation. If they had only made Flexjet follow the taxiway system perhaps this could have been avoided. Fortunately this time the SWA crew was on their game and went around. Watching it again it doesn't appear their gear ever touched.
 
Rcmutz said:
Sure sounds like Flexjet 560 screwed the pooch. Get ready for a 509 ride! But, I’m sure it will get blamed on DOGE.
Click to expand...
I hope not since it was the controller that caught it first. After telling the leer to stop, stop, stop, he called the go around. I'm sure SWA was on top of it too as they looked primed to go around already.
 
Pilot99B said:
Am I the only one who thinks that the certificates of the FlexJet pilots should be revoked?
Click to expand...
That’s severe. How about figuring out ALL the facts first, determining the root and immediate causes, and then proceed with an eye toward prevention? For the pilots, additional training and a 709 ride is likley going to be more appropriate than terminating their certificates.
 
"Possible pilot deviation. Advise when ready to copy."
"Hold on I'm filing a NASA report on my phone real quick."

But seriously, did they proceed to take off after that...?
 
Initial Fix said:
Good on the 737 to go around. Those motors don’t exactly spool up as fast as our bug smashers
Click to expand...
That's not much of a problem for modern engines and stabilized approach criteria.

The engine control units increase the idle setting when in flight so that the engines don't have to spool up from the very low ground idle position. Stabilized approach criteria also requires the engines to be spooled, not at flight-idle, when below either 1,000' or 500' depending on the airline and/or conditions.

Pushing the power up provides a very quick response, unlike the engines in the old 727s, DC9s, and 737-200.

Go-around thrust is not even full climb thrust. It goes to a thrust level that will produce approximately a 2,000fpm climb. A second push of the TOGA buttons will bug full climb power.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top