Larry in TN
En-Route
That could be. I only flew the CRJs for six months more than ten years ago and I could have gotten them backwards. The CRJ-900 did land much better that the 700, though. I don't remember why.
Toronto - Delta Airlines CRJ-900 upside down, Flight 4819 from Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) to Toronto
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John Spartan
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Spartan
Was there any flare at all?
Tools
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Don’t think so… don’t see though it was required, I mean they could see it…
Oh wait…
You mean that weird thing civilians and Air Force types do? Ya, no, not one of those either!
I think a cross wind correction put it on one gear leg first, and it just gave way.
Oh wait…
You mean that weird thing civilians and Air Force types do? Ya, no, not one of those either!
I think a cross wind correction put it on one gear leg first, and it just gave way.
Clayzz
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Clayzz
"I think a cross wind correction put it on one gear leg first, and it just gave way."
One gear leg first won't cause the problem ,add in a diagonal loading factor and the gear wipes off.
One of my partial theories of Amelia Earhart's crash in Hawaii
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
But the record doesn't show either of those things happening, does it? Looks like the restrictions are still there.
At some point, there's only so much you can do. Being on the line since last April, chances are the FO had several hundred hours in type. The Captain flying a desk and picking up the flight "to maintain currency" means that he was likely the less proficient of the two pilots, but having worked there since 2007 he probably had oodles of time in type.
I was in a similar situation, flying a desk most of the time with occasional days where I got to fly for real, but there was nothing stopping me from flying unrestricted with a 100-hour FO. And of course, it was possible to have a 100-hour captain and a 100-hour FO. At some point, you can make things so "safe" that scheduling becomes impossible.
I had to assert command authority on exactly one (minor) decision once, I had an FO give me the controls after a go-around in some very challenging conditions once, and I had to get myself reassigned as PIC due to conditions being below green-captain requirements when I was doing the first OE flight with a brand new captain once. I did not ever have to grab controls away from someone because they made a mistake. The expectation was that once you were in the plane you could fly the plane, and we hired accordingly.
Re flying a desk, I know that after about 3 weeks of not flying, I'd be slower than I liked. Luckily, it was pretty rare for me to go that long. I wonder when the last time the captain flew was...
k9medic
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ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
I cannot provide conjecture for the event but I can provide some thoughts as an FO (sort of.)
A vast majority of my flight time has been single pilot. I fly SPIFR in helicopters under part 135 and my own planes part 91. With the exception of about 500 hours, all of my flight time has been single pilot. I stopped counting hours in 2014 at around 4500 hours.
On occasion, I ick up some trips in a Citation as the SIC/FO (owner's insurance requires 2 pilots and I am typed.) Most recently, we were hard IMC in the Citation and I was the pilot monitoring. The autopilot did not capture the approach correctly and the PIC started to mess with it. I made the audible call to the PIC to hand fly the approach and I would back him on it. He disconnected the A/P and hand flew a great approach to a bit above minimums.
That to me is the essence of CRM. My job was to monitor. When I saw something was not correct I made the call. This is pure speculation but a low time FO might have difficulty correcting a Captain in that situation. Think the Asiana Airlines incident.
A vast majority of my flight time has been single pilot. I fly SPIFR in helicopters under part 135 and my own planes part 91. With the exception of about 500 hours, all of my flight time has been single pilot. I stopped counting hours in 2014 at around 4500 hours.
On occasion, I ick up some trips in a Citation as the SIC/FO (owner's insurance requires 2 pilots and I am typed.) Most recently, we were hard IMC in the Citation and I was the pilot monitoring. The autopilot did not capture the approach correctly and the PIC started to mess with it. I made the audible call to the PIC to hand fly the approach and I would back him on it. He disconnected the A/P and hand flew a great approach to a bit above minimums.
That to me is the essence of CRM. My job was to monitor. When I saw something was not correct I made the call. This is pure speculation but a low time FO might have difficulty correcting a Captain in that situation. Think the Asiana Airlines incident.
What mistake are you implying? They were both fully qualified. There was no green on green and since she’d been on the line for a year she almost certainly had more than 100 hours to get off high mins restrictions
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dmspilot
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It will when the impact force exceeds the design limit. Descent rate at touchdown was almost surely greater than 600fpm and may have been significantly more than that.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sounds like an “or”, not an “and”. I didn’t look up the record.
So if the SOE is still there, that would indicate very little time in the airplane.
The SOE limitation is something like “airplane type is subject to PIC limits” right? IIRC correctly, I had that on my certificate until I went for upgrade training and had to have it removed before I went to training. At that point I had least 1000 hours on the plane. So one may or may not have very little time with that limitation. Not sure how endeavor does it now, but getting rid of the SOE was done at any point before upgrade training.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
some people get rid of them quicker than others, I guess.
I know a few people who will probably have one forever because they weren’t quick enough.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Everything that is done today with ATP-CTP and CRM training is teaching people to speak up, though. Unless she's had some really bad experiences with this captain or other captains, I find it hard to believe that a US FO wouldn't speak up. Other cultures have more difficulty with that sort of thing.
If there's a mistake, it may simply be that the Captain, while technically current enough, maybe shouldn't have been flying if he had to pick up the trip to stay current. I'll be very interested to see what his recency of experience looks like, and I wouldn't be surprised if their SMS now has something about that in it.
pfarber
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Endeavor was (IIRC) the last regional to use the 200. I do not miss them. Something as simple as getting APU hours was a hassle. Now the 700/900 transmits it over ACARs after every flight. Testing the fire system was hassle... it was such a manual system. The 700/900 is one button. Although towing and parking them in front of the hangar was super easy.
A slight de flare in the last 10 feet.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
SkyWest and Air Wisconsin still operate the 200s.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I suspect the issue may have been more of a side load than a straight down force. The gear would likely have popped through the wing if it was simply a matter of too high of vertical descent.
That gear pretty much folded. The gear side limits are much lower than vertical limits. Metal fatigue could also have been a factor.
Larry in TN
En-Route
That's how full-time sim instructors stay current. They pickup trips. I don't know how Endeavor does it but it's likely at least a couple of days per month.
Could be, or it could be one of the bracing struts failed prematurely. No way to know at this point.
We need to find out which component(s) failed and what the loading was on landing. Side loads during crosswind landings are anticipated in the certification standards.
This could turn out to be anything from completely pilot error to completely mechanical failure, or somewhere in between.
dmspilot
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(Premature) mechanical failure is doubtful but could be a contributing factor. Something caused them to come in steep and slam onto the runway well before a normal touchdown point.
Likely touchdown area based on viewing angle:
Likely touchdown area based on timing and possible groundspeed range of 101 to 131 knots (116 +/- 15).
Likely touchdown area based on viewing angle:
Likely touchdown area based on timing and possible groundspeed range of 101 to 131 knots (116 +/- 15).
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Drake the Outlaw
Is there a video that shows a bunch of drift at touchdown? I haven't seen anything that would confirm or deny that...
All things are relative in size and wind strength... I fly a Mooney and a few years ago while they were working on typical winter runway for winds I was landing on the intersecting Rwy with a stiff crosswind and significant gusts. Wasn't actually sure if I'd be able to land, but flying GA, I have the luxury of giving it a try. Everything was actually going fine and I still had plenty of rudder authority on short final, so I kept going... Got down to just a few feet above the Rwy and that nice consistent gust I had been going through STOPPED and I DROPPED. Magnify what happened to me with the winds and the weight of that aircraft and who knows what happened in those last few seconds. Hopefully the data recorders will shed some light.
I mean that’s not really a thing. Some sim guys only see the line a few times out of the year. Depending on how busy they are needed in the sim. Some guys are able to fly more than others