Crash in Arizona (Marana, Feb 19, 2025)

Marana has a flight school that flies pipers and 172s. Hoping it’s not students in the 172. Fast plane overtaking a slow plane or some variation of the usual issues with straight ins vs pattern flight come to mind so far. Not seeing any details at all yet though. Always a tragic loss of fellow fliers. :(
 
From what I've seen posted elsewhere, the 172 did a stop and go on the runway ahead of the Lancair. The Lancair went around, but did not side-step the runway. The 172 took off, and the prop of the 172 struck the tail of the Lancair. The Lancair went down, the 172 completed the pattern and landed.
 
midwestpa24 said:
From what I've seen posted elsewhere, the 172 did a stop and go on the runway ahead of the Lancair. The Lancair went around, but did not side-step the runway. The 172 took off, and the prop of the 172 struck the tail of the Lancair. The Lancair went down, the 172 completed the pattern and landed.
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I always teach my students to make the sidestep on every go-around so it becomes a habit. Two of my Air Force instructors had a mid-air when one was taking off and flew into the one going around. Of the four pilots, only one survived.
 
High wing and low, fast and slow. Look out below. Hard to imagine not keeping runway environment in sight.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I always teach my students to make the sidestep on every go-around so it becomes a habit. Two of my Air Force instructors had a mid-air when one was taking off and flew into the one going around. Of the four pilots, only one survived.
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I was on short final one day when a plane that has been in the sunup area pulled onto the runway and started his takeoff run. It had never happened to me before; none of my instructors ever taught side-stepping. I went around, but the pilot below me was still unaware that I was there until he saw my belly in his canopy. Scared the crap out of him, and later me as well when we talked about it. He'd been on the wrong frequency and apparently didn't see me on short final. That could very easily have turned into a midair. Now I make it a point to sidestep if I go around.
 
DaleB said:
I was on short final one day when a plane that has been in the sunup area pulled onto the runway and started his takeoff run. It had never happened to me before; none of my instructors ever taught side-stepping. I went around, but the pilot below me was still unaware that I was there until he saw my belly in his canopy. Scared the crap out of him, and later me as well when we talked about it. He'd been on the wrong frequency and apparently didn't see me on short final. That could very easily have turned into a midair. Now I make it a point to sidestep if I go around.
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I was on final with a student pilot when a "Texas taildragger" Cessna 150 pulled onto the runway and started his takeoff roll. I told the student to go around, and she did the sidestep, and the other airplane (obviously more powerful than our 150) climbed up next to us and passed us. No radio calls. I don't think that pilot was aware we were there. Pretty sure he was on the wrong frequency.
 
I have flown to Marana quite a few times. It used to be Avra Valley and it was where they sent all the students for their first cross country as you could follow I10 the whole way down from Phoenix and (almost) not get lost. Lower altitude, easy to find, good restaurant and checks the boxes for Solo student flight. Very very sorry to hear this. It is a busy airport and has lots of parachute activity in the vicinity which complicates the pattern depending on winds. We went last year and I was surprised at the traffic even on a weekday. A while back they indicated that they were on the list to get a tower and many were pleased to hear it because they really need one.
 
Rene said:
Fortunately, I don't have ADSB (I hear that it requires a SI). I have an earlier system: W-I-N-D-O-W-S. But my understanding, not to make light of those who perished, is that both the old and new require some amount of situational awareness.
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And you need eyesight. Unlike the SkewtLogP plots which the government believes those who are eyesight challenged need access to, or nobody gets to see them.
 
Rene said:
Fortunately, I don't have ADSB (I hear that it requires a SI). I have an earlier system: W-I-N-D-O-W-S. But my understanding, not to make light of those who perished, is that both the old and new require some amount of situational awareness.
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I think people rely on them and as a new pilots it’s hard to see traffic, so I wish everyone would have adsb out.
 
Rene said:
Fortunately, I don't have ADSB (I hear that it requires a SI). I have an earlier system: W-I-N-D-O-W-S. But my understanding, not to make light of those who perished, is that both the old and new require some amount of situational awareness.
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Honest question - why are you fortunate to not have ADS-B? I have both ADS-B and windows. And the combination of both make for excellent situational awareness. Could I fly without ADS-B? Yeah, sure. Would I want to in the incredibly busy airspace in which I fly? No way. Guess it's just my opinion, but I am in favor of using any and all tools that help situational awareness including ADS-B, ForeFlight (with traffic and wx), GTN650 with a nice magenta line and an AP that follows it very nicely. Could I fly with no ADS-B, VOR to VOR or DR and FSS to get the weather? Yeah, sure I could. But why would I with all these tools available to me to make flying safer in the busy skies where I aviate. I dunno. Guess it's just me.

RIP to all who perished in AZ.
 
Deelee said:
Honest question - why are you fortunate to not have ADS-B? I have both ADS-B and windows. And the combination of both make for excellent situational awareness. Could I fly without ADS-B? Yeah, sure. Would I want to in the incredibly busy airspace in which I fly? No way. Guess it's just my opinion, but I am in favor of using any and all tools that help situational awareness including ADS-B, ForeFlight (with traffic and wx), GTN650 with a nice magenta line and an AP that follows it very nicely. Could I fly with no ADS-B, VOR to VOR or DR and FSS to get the weather? Yeah, sure I could. But why would I with all these tools available to me to make flying safer in the busy skies where I aviate. I dunno. Guess it's just me.

RIP to all who perished in AZ.
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Yeah this 100%. Technologies that improve safety and make one's task at hand easier to manage should be celebrated, not derided. I'm not saying ADS-B would have necessarily prevented this particular accident, but I can think of at least two in the past year it definitely could have. Human vision is not nearly good enough that "see and avoid" should be the sole strategy we rely on as pilots, considering the tech that is available to help us nowadays. Show me a pilot who thinks their vision is superior, nigh infallible, and I'll show you a statistic waiting to happen.
 
midwestpa24 said:
From what I've seen posted elsewhere, the 172 did a stop and go on the runway ahead of the Lancair. The Lancair went around, but did not side-step the runway. The 172 took off, and the prop of the 172 struck the tail of the Lancair. The Lancair went down, the 172 completed the pattern and landed.
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This is on Beechtalk

From another website eye witness, the 172 and lancair were on final, the 172 did a touch n go? and the lancair went around, the 172 climbed and the wingtips hit, lancair dove into the ground, the 172 did another pattern and landed.
 
Deelee said:
Honest question - why are you fortunate to not have ADS-B? I have both ADS-B and windows. And the combination of both make for excellent situational awareness. Could I fly without ADS-B? Yeah, sure. Would I want to in the incredibly busy airspace in which I fly? No way. Guess it's just my opinion, but I am in favor of using any and all tools that help situational awareness including ADS-B, ForeFlight (with traffic and wx), GTN650 with a nice magenta line and an AP that follows it very nicely. Could I fly with no ADS-B, VOR to VOR or DR and FSS to get the weather? Yeah, sure I could. But why would I with all these tools available to me to make flying safer in the busy skies where I aviate. I dunno. Guess it's just me.

RIP to all who perished in AZ.
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therein lies the problem, technology dependency. the 172 was doing a stop and go. they had both done a couple of circuits before the midair, so they knew that they both were in the pattern. their spacing around the pattern looked good given the speed differnce of the aircraft. not making any judgements here, and I don't have the facts, BUT, on a go around that you know there is traffic in front of you and the other aircraft knows there is traffic behind you, looking inside to look at the screen is not the thing to do. the lancair should have side stepped and announced it on the radio and all four people should have had there eyes outside looking for the airplane they knew was close by.
 
Rene said:
Fortunately, I don't have ADSB (I hear that it requires a SI). I have an earlier system: W-I-N-D-O-W-S. But my understanding, not to make light of those who perished, is that both the old and new require some amount of situational awareness.
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Plenty of accidents have proven that see and avoid doesn't work as good as we think.
#1, we are good at seeing a moving target. But, if you are on a collision course, the target DOESN'T MOVE. It just slowly increases in size.
#1.5, that static target will easily blend up with the background for most aircraft colors.
#2, you can't see all around the aircraft. Here's some homework for you: how many steradians of visibility do you have from the pilot's seat of your plane, allowing for nominal head movement? How many steradians are blocked by the airframe? Present your results here.

Rene said:
Just my opinion. People need to be looking OUTSIDE the cockpit while flying.
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Do the evaluation I've mentioned above and you will realize that your opinion needs some realignment.

While ADS-B is not a cure all, the situational awareness it provides is vastly superior to the Mk I eyeball, which isn't getting any better with age. I glance at the screen and try to incoprorate the potentially dangerous targets in my scan.

I've had a couple close calls with aircraft making improper pattern calls, where ADS-B IN was probably what prevented a mid-air. Last one, a couple years ago, had a twin almost rear end me on downwind, the guy was making traffic calls but not listening to mine telling him I was a mile in front of him.
And I recently witnessed another close call avoided by ADS-B IN when a departing aircraft made a right turnout on departure, in the path of another aircraft thst was entering the pattern on the crosswind.
 
Rene said:
Having 20-20 eyesight doesn't help those who don't look out the window.

Seriously, how would having or not having ADSB be meaningful if the report is correct and the Lancair was executing a go-around because the Cessna was in its flight path?
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After 50 years of flying now, I can tell you I always keep my eyes on any conflicting traffic. This seems like the Lancair lost sight of the 172 on the go. Not to hard to sidestep to a left upwind and keep the slower 172 in sight.
 
mandm said:
and do gliders show up as traffic?
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Not usually. But most non-training gliders have ADS-B In or equivalent. So if you have transponder or ADS-B there is a good chance we see you.


1740012732101.png
My best guess abpve is about 150 para gliders, I count about 25 in the photo, (national competition) I saw 4 of them on my traffic display (only 4 had traffic devices). Flarm is the go to traffic device for glider as it better accounts and predicts the trajectory's of the other gliders rather than just telling there are 25 gliders within a mile of you.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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John Spartan said:
Marana has a flight school that flies pipers and 172s. Hoping it’s not students in the 172. Fast plane overtaking a slow plane or some variation of the usual issues with straight ins vs pattern flight come to mind so far. Not seeing any details at all yet though. Always a tragic loss of fellow fliers. :(
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I've heard that only the Lancair is the aircraft that crashed, the 172 returned safely. High wing aircraft taking off, low wing aircraft descending, blind spots converging. It is a well known story, unfortunately.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I always teach my students to make the sidestep on every go-around so it becomes a habit. Two of my Air Force instructors had a mid-air when one was taking off and flew into the one going around. Of the four pilots, only one survived.
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This is what I was taught and had to perform more than once when another pilot didn't understand the tower's command to "hold short of the runway and wait for traffic on final." Hell, the first time it happened, I didn't even wait for the tower to tell me to go around, I initiated and and let them know what I was doing.
 
The thread has been reopened after clearing out much of the back-and-forth not related to the subject mishap. Sorry if you feel like you lost something important, but this is not the place for much of the "discussion" that was taking place.
 
nauga said:
The thread has been reopened after clearing out much of the back-and-forth not related to the subject mishap. Sorry if you feel like you lost something important, but this is not the place for much of the "discussion" that was taking place.
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Nauga, where *would* be the place? Yes, things took a bit of a tangent, but it was still a (lively) discussion of topics related to aviation safety. Is that not the very point of discussing aviation mishaps?

traumamed,

Who is perplexed and vexed
 
traumamed said:
Nauga, where *would* be the place? Yes, things took a bit of a tangent, but it was still a (lively) discussion of topics related to aviation safety. Is that not the very point of discussing aviation mishaps?

traumamed,

Who is perplexed and vexed
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Start a thread titled "See and Avoid, and it's limitations" or something, and leave this thread to specifics related to the incident being discussed. I should've known better than to reply to those posts.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Start a thread titled "See and Avoid, and it's limitations" or something.
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...While the accident that is the topic of this thread almost certainly happened in no small part due to the limitations of see and avoid.

I'm just going to nope on out of any further participation in this thread before I get banned or something. Enjoy the discussion all.
 
FYI, this event is coming up on March 1 in Marana: https://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=134831

Title: Marana Regional Airport KAVQ Aviation Safety Program - HYBRID

Topic: Airport & Tower Updates; Avoiding Helicopter Wake Turbulence; Laser & Drone Information; Parachute Operations Safety for All.

Both in-person and over Zoom. I imagine this accident will come up during the airport and tower updates portion.
 
DaleB said:
I was on short final one day when a plane that has been in the sunup area pulled onto the runway and started his takeoff run. It had never happened to me before; none of my instructors ever taught side-stepping. I went around, but the pilot below me was still unaware that I was there until he saw my belly in his canopy. Scared the crap out of him, and later me as well when we talked about it. He'd been on the wrong frequency and apparently didn't see me on short final. That could very easily have turned into a midair. Now I make it a point to sidestep if I go around.
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Sounds like a classic case of learning...."a change in behavior due to experience''.
 
traumamed said:
Nauga, where *would* be the place? Yes, things took a bit of a tangent, but it was still a (lively) discussion of topics related to aviation safety. Is that not the very point of discussing aviation mishaps?

traumamed,

Who is perplexed and vexed
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"...clearing out much of the back-and-forth not related to the subject mishap..."
 
Kudos to nauga, doing the right thing, and owning it personally.

Thread drift is a problem, and can become excessive, obliterating the original topic.

Yes, what we should learn from this accident is important, but arguing just why various tactics are best is not useful.

I have had a couple of posts removed elsewhere, and am not offended, but there was no claim by Council who did it. nauga is brave :).
 
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