Toronto - Delta Airlines CRJ-900 upside down, Flight 4819 from Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport (MSP) to Toronto

Roller said:
While we are talking about stuff that never happened ha ha



Depends, where I am at we don’t really have CAs with low time in type, but we are flying wide bodies

Regionals have always been interesting like that
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same with us although what scares me is the guys who spent 20 years on one type and are brand new to mine in the left seat. that's when i have to be on my a game.
 
kayoh190 said:
In the context of the media or general public, I agree. But for anyone trying to get a deeper understanding of what happened it sometimes helps to make the distinction. There may be differences in the manuals that are relevant to the discussion. I pointed out that I wasn't Endeavor when stating my company's rules about low mins FOs. I'd expect a Delta pilot to do the same.
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Aren't the manuals different for different types even within the same airline?
 
Lindberg said:
Aren't the manuals different for different types even within the same airline?
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Generally, the flight ops manual governs the whole airline such as operating rules, deadhead, uniform appearance, ferry operations, etc. Each fleet has their own “POH” which has rules on how they operate their own aircraft. Low time FOs restrictions would probably be in the flight ops manual as it’s not fleet specific. Those are company restrictions.
 
Lindberg said:
Aren't the manuals different for different types even within the same airline?
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At AA, we have three 'big' manuals and a bunch of smaller documents. Two of the big three are aircraft specific - the AOM (Aircraft Operating Manual) and ASM (Aircraft Systems Manual) - while the FOM (Flight Operation Manual) is not.

So let's say the visibility is low at our destination and we need to plan on a Cat III to an autoland, but none of us have done one in over 9 months. We'll dig into the AOM to review our callouts, required working equipment, what lighting needs to be available, and so on. It tells us exactly how AA expects us to fly their 777.

Last month we had a United jumpseater wanting to come with us down to Buenos Aires. We all know offline jumpseaters are not allowed on the flight deck for an international flight, but fortunately there were a couple of open seats in the back. That said it's a 10.5 hour flight and all three of us are gonna spend our breaks in the bunk - can this guy use our business class rest seat instead of being stuck in coach? We had no idea because we've never seen this situation before. FOM to the rescue! We were able to make it happen.

When I mentioned a low mins FO having a 15 knot crosswind restriction, that's also from our FOM, but not necessarily Endeavor's.

As for our ASM, sadly that manual doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. ;)
 
Princesspilot206 said:
What do you mean? I have heard countless stories of FO's that get fired after taking out their phone while in the flight deck....sterile isn't just for phones
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Princesspilot206 said:
What do you mean? I have heard countless stories of FO's that get fired after taking out their phone while in the flight deck....
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ok? who said anything about FO use and phones? sterile is alot more then using your phone. besides that isn't germaine to the crash in Toronto.
 
Brad Z said:
Has anyone wondered why a presumably first officer or co pilot...decided to pull his phone out and record this one? How bad were the conditions and what did things look like on the approach?
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Replying to this comment was the reason I brought it up in the first place. I am not a fan of phone usage as it erodes a sterile cockpit. Especially at the hold short line...
 
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Princesspilot206 said:
Replying to this comment was the reason I brought it up in the first place. I am not a fan of phone usage as it erodes a sterile cockpit. Especially at the hold short line...
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I'm confused. what does the guy videoing in the plane holding short have to do with anything?
 
eman1200 said:
I'm confused. what does the guy videoing in the plane holding short have to do with anything?
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I was simply making a statement that "My first thought was that cockpit (FO videoing) was not sterile." Is that a bizarre thing to think? General aviation is one thing, but that flight at the hold short line video taping was either Part 91, 135, or 121.
 
kayoh190 said:
At AA, we have three 'big' manuals and a bunch of smaller documents. Two of the big three are aircraft specific - the AOM (Aircraft Operating Manual) and ASM (Aircraft Systems Manual) - while the FOM (Flight Operation Manual) is not.

So let's say the visibility is low at our destination and we need to plan on a Cat III to an autoland, but none of us have done one in over 9 months. We'll dig into the AOM to review our callouts, required working equipment, what lighting needs to be available, and so on. It tells us exactly how AA expects us to fly their 777.

Last month we had a United jumpseater wanting to come with us down to Buenos Aires. We all know offline jumpseaters are not allowed on the flight deck for an international flight, but fortunately there were a couple of open seats in the back. That said it's a 10.5 hour flight and all three of us are gonna spend our breaks in the bunk - can this guy use our business class rest seat instead of being stuck in coach? We had no idea because we've never seen this situation before. FOM to the rescue! We were able to make it happen.

When I mentioned a low mins FO having a 15 knot crosswind restriction, that's also from our FOM, but not necessarily Endeavor's.

As for our ASM, sadly that manual doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. ;)
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That's all seriously interesting information. And still, for all practical purposes except seniority lists, as far as 99.999999% are concerned, this was a Delta flight.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Every CFI has flown with an unsterile cockpit many times I guarantee you.
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I did it intentionally with student's nearing their checkride. I'd start talking about something unrelated to the flight when they were getting busy with a task to see how'd they'd manage the distraction. You know that their passengers will start talking at all sorts of inappropriate times once they have their license.

kayoh190 said:
Is he with you guys? I don't see him on our list (although maybe Juan isn't his legal first name).
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AAL LAX 777 FO
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I was simply making a statement that "My first thought was that cockpit (FO videoing) was not sterile." Is that a bizarre thing to think?
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well, my opinion of course, but in the grand scheme of planes crash landing and flipping over, that someone else in another plane shooting a video while sitting there doing nothing except waiting to take off is pretty irrelevant and insignificant. and I, um, know people, definitely not me because when I'm holding short waiting for a plane to take off I'm perfectly still and silent and doing nothing except focusing on the next task at hand that may not be for another minute or so, but other people I know have been known to snap a quick video of a plane landing.
 
eman1200 said:
well, my opinion of course, but in the grand scheme of planes crash landing and flipping over, that someone else in another plane shooting a video while sitting there doing nothing except waiting to take off is pretty irrelevant and insignificant. and I, um, know people, definitely not me because when I'm holding short waiting for a plane to take off I'm perfectly still and silent and doing nothing except focusing on the next task at hand that may not be for another minute or so, but other people I know have been known to snap a quick video of a plane landing.
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Hmm, understandable. I guess I was just raised by crotchety old male pilots who would have my head if I did such a thing.
 
IMG-6272.jpg


Ha
 
eman1200 said:
well, my opinion of course, but in the grand scheme of planes crash landing and flipping over, that someone else in another plane shooting a video while sitting there doing nothing except waiting to take off is pretty irrelevant and insignificant. and I, um, know people, definitely not me because when I'm holding short waiting for a plane to take off I'm perfectly still and silent and doing nothing except focusing on the next task at hand that may not be for another minute or so, but other people I know have been known to snap a quick video of a plane landing.
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If you listen to the audio, the Learjet gets and responds to a line up and wait while the CRJ is in the process of unassembling. It’s hard to confirm, but it almost looks like they barely start moving until it’s apparent the CRJ is going to impede their takeoff roll.
 
Lindberg said:
That's all seriously interesting information. And still, for all practical purposes except seniority lists, as far as 99.999999% are concerned, this was a Delta flight.
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When I posted about low mins FO restrictions, there's an implication that the crew might not have been legal. That's why I'm really careful to hedge with a mention that I don't work for Endeavor - I realize it's sort of BS to bring it up without actually knowing what's in their manual (that said, it's likely their manual has similar, if not identical restrictions).
 
eman1200 said:
now I'm even more confused. what part do you think student/private pilots operate under?
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Remember me? I worked on the FAA ReAuth Bill. Of course student pilots are under Part 61/141. Trying to have a conversation over text is not working out too well here lol. I'm squawking 7600. Have a good day. :)
 
Roller said:
Legal fact
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Nah, just his side of the story.

But he has been discussed tons here. Believe what you want. To me, it's compelling that everyone I know that has dealt with him would never do so again.

1

Thread 'Is Dan Gryder the biggest asset to aviation on youtube?'

He's at it again.

This guy is just a treasure trove of anti-authoritarian nonsense and dangerous behavior. Threatening to run over the police and then demanding they refill his DC3. He's a gift that keeps on giving.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/FAA-2009-0281-0017
https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FAA-2009-0281/document?sortBy=postedDate
http://cityofgriffin.com/portals/1/...tes/2007/3Minutes Advisory Board 2 Aug 07.pdf
https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/5687.pdf...
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Princesspilot206 said:
I was simply making a statement that "My first thought was that cockpit (FO videoing) was not sterile." Is that a bizarre thing to think? General aviation is one thing, but that flight at the hold short line video taping was either Part 91, 135, or 121.
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Keep in mind that a Part 91 jet is part of “general aviation.”
 
172andyou said:
Nah, just his side of the story.

But he has been discussed tons here. Believe what you want. To me, it's compelling that everyone I know that has dealt with him would never do so again.

1

Thread 'Is Dan Gryder the biggest asset to aviation on youtube?'

He's at it again.

This guy is just a treasure trove of anti-authoritarian nonsense and dangerous behavior. Threatening to run over the police and then demanding they refill his DC3. He's a gift that keeps on giving.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/FAA-2009-0281-0017
https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FAA-2009-0281/document?sortBy=postedDate
http://cityofgriffin.com/portals/1/...tes/2007/3Minutes Advisory Board 2 Aug 07.pdf
https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/5687.pdf...
  • Like
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He was never found guilty, never pleaded down, and released all the videos.

I get that it's popular in the small GA plane world to hate on him, but if you're going to criticize, stick to the facts or at least be clear it's just your opinion.
 
Larry in TN said:
I did it intentionally with student's nearing their checkride. I'd start talking about something unrelated to the flight when they were getting busy with a task to see how'd they'd manage the distraction. You know that their passengers will start talking at all sorts of inappropriate times once they have their license.
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When I had my engine failure and forced landing, my son was in the back seat asking "what's happening, Dad?" Somehow saying STFU didn't feel right, so I wound up narrating the whole process for him. It actually helped me to be decisive. "It's ok son, we're landing THERE."
 
Roller said:
He was never found guilty, never pleaded down, and released all the videos.

I get that it's popular in the small GA plane world to hate on him, but if you're going to criticize, stick to the facts or at least be clear it's just your opinion.
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Fair enough. When taken together:
the testimony of the police in that case
the pattern of other accusations (stalking, defamation, etc)
his on camera admissions to going to crash sites taking pieces of planes and refusing to provide them to the NTSB
my personal witnessing of some bad behavior
his being banned from airventure
that none of the people I know that have been in his circle will say anything favorable about him
that he was involved with three known incidents (corn field, electra, cub)
and many, many other experiences

my opinion is that he was up to no good in that incident and others.
 
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