Has anyone had experience with an avionics shop taking excessive time on you r upgrade? Mines been taken hostage with lame excuses for 19 months and 19 days. Looks like I’ll have to call an attorney but trying to avoid that. Any ideas?
Avionics shop nightmare
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Jesse Saint
Line Up and Wait
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Jesse Saint
That sounds criminal to me. Is it flyable?
What type of shop are you referring to, repair station, FBO shop, independent mechanic...?
What was the agreed upon work scope you asked the shop to perform to include type of equipment?
What was the original completion date offered by the shop?
What type of aircraft?
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
No, I’ve had shops miss their promised dates (almost every time), sometimes has much as double. I’ve always at least gotten 1 recommendation.
From their site :is a FAA certificated Part 145 Repair Station with maintenance, avionics & repair…
2 g3x
Garmin750 & 650
Garmin 500 ap
Not the fullest but those are the big ticket items
Said it would take about 4 months, not in a contract but via email exchange
A36 bonanza
My local shop billed me 24 hours to install a magnetometer, which normally takes 6 hours. They had estimated it at "1 day". Very misleading, lesson learned. For the first time in the nearly 20 years I've owned my plane, I didn't get the estimate in writing beforehand because it was such a small job. I blame myself for that, even though they took advantage of it. Lesson learned!
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
That is atypical. Perhaps you could request (demand) a final invoice and remove the aircraft, even by trailer if need be. Make sure you get all your parts back.
Doing so might be cheaper and faster than an attorney.
What location and shop?
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Example?
So it went in the shop in early 2023 and you remotely okayed the work scope to be performed?
How was your work payment schedule set up and how much money have you spent to date?
At the 4 month point, what was your interaction with the shop and what was their specific reason for the delay at that time?
Do you have a mechanic that handles your other maintenance needs?
Have you physically visited the shop after the original 4 month due date past?
Flaflyer
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BravoCharlie
Well I can say you have the patience of Job. I hope you get your plane back. But any shop that takes that kind of excess time dosen't give a rip that it was installed and calibrated correctly. I had an issue in the past and Garmin was very receptive to my feed back. And you might also share your story with your FSDO. Shops like you are describing should not be in business.
Best of luck,
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
FSDO is not a consumer protection agency. Taking too long to install avionics is not the FAA’s problem.
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4RNB
Everything in aviation has taken longer than expected.
Most has taken longer than the shops said.
Supply chain issues hampered things a few years ago.
I try my best to work around this stuff in advance but some things can't be helped. I paid in advance for all of the parts to be ordered. They maybe took 6 months to come in, maybe longer. Then once work started they realized that the ordered PFD would not fit in the 50 yo plane without major changes. So major changes brought on many more delays. Then once everything came in it still seemed to take too long.
I think much of this comes down to a major difficulty running these businesses and needing to keep folks working. Hit a roadblock in one plane, move to the next, finish it, then maybe back to the original. Couple that with the drop in traffic with AOG problems and it is a juggle. At least that was the perspective I picked up.
I'd advocate for hanging out at the shop more
I moved to experimental!
Most has taken longer than the shops said.
Supply chain issues hampered things a few years ago.
I try my best to work around this stuff in advance but some things can't be helped. I paid in advance for all of the parts to be ordered. They maybe took 6 months to come in, maybe longer. Then once work started they realized that the ordered PFD would not fit in the 50 yo plane without major changes. So major changes brought on many more delays. Then once everything came in it still seemed to take too long.
I think much of this comes down to a major difficulty running these businesses and needing to keep folks working. Hit a roadblock in one plane, move to the next, finish it, then maybe back to the original. Couple that with the drop in traffic with AOG problems and it is a juggle. At least that was the perspective I picked up.
I'd advocate for hanging out at the shop more
I moved to experimental!
If I'm being honest, at the 19 month mark, you share some blame in this situation for letting it get this far.
As a cautionary tale to others, this is what happens when you chose to be "non-confrontational" and too informal with a shop. People worry about ruffling feathers, etc., all while letting the shop just run right over them. Past the 4 month mark should have been daily calls for status updates and regular shop visits, in person. Past the 6 month mark, it should be daily shop visits.
If that's too much hassle, just accept that the shop will continue to utterly ignore your project.
As a cautionary tale to others, this is what happens when you chose to be "non-confrontational" and too informal with a shop. People worry about ruffling feathers, etc., all while letting the shop just run right over them. Past the 4 month mark should have been daily calls for status updates and regular shop visits, in person. Past the 6 month mark, it should be daily shop visits.
If that's too much hassle, just accept that the shop will continue to utterly ignore your project.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
You can’t let the shop own the project. As the aircraft owner, you need to take responsibility for its completion, and handle the shop as a subcontractor or employees. They provide the engineering, obtain the parts, and do the work, but overall management and organizational control rests with the aircraft owner.
Don’t give up your role.
Don’t give up your role.
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4RNB
This has really proven to be true. I expected more shops to be the project manager of things but I ended up feeling I needed to be.
mandm
Avionics Upgrade
I feel like your engine is crying right now. This is not normal. My shop went to work 30 seconds after I left with almost daily updates and I was the one who added more to the scope and I have tons of questions too that all got answered.
This is exceptionally well said, and applies to anytime you leave your aircraft with any shop. Nobody cares about your airplane as much as you do, be an active owner (or don't complain about time and cost).
Datadriver
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Datadriver
Yes, I also had a g3x and g500 install that went way way over the original estimate, and they had all the parts in advance. It wasn't until I started showing up at the shop that they finished.
Marshall
Filing Flight Plan
Had same thing happen. 14 months. Only way to get it moving, is find another avionics shop and threaten to have them finish project. Have someone lined up to fly home or another avionics shop with it tore apart. Had a 206 installing a 750xi and Aspen and 930 JPI. a nightmare 6 hrs drive from home base.
AlphaPilotFlyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Give them deadline….if they cannot meet it or blow past it, go to local small claims court and file suit. To get your plane back, pay a bond to court for sum they say you owe,,,,this is basically held in escrow, clerk gives you document that says they are holding what is owed if you lose in court….this doc allows you to get your plane out of shop…..they have to release your plane and you can call cops if needed. So, you have your plane and if you win in court you get $ back depending what value of work court says they are due. You can sue them for all other additional expenses you spent for damages.
Suggestion….do the work yourself with friends….its not that difficult. Then hire A&P to inspect and sign off on it.
Suggestion….do the work yourself with friends….its not that difficult. Then hire A&P to inspect and sign off on it.
wilkersk
Pattern Altitude
Heard of a shop last year that got shut down by the Port authority and kicked off the field. From what I've heard, the owner was in over his head and could not afford to hire enough help or pay them enough to keep them. I suspect there are customers still dealing with the fallout from that.
Much easier said than done. I've taken on several DIY avionics projects, and it's a very steep learning curve (not to mention the need for specialized tools and learning to use those). I'm all for people doing their own work, but you make it sounds way easier than it really is. I started small and worked my way up, but even after having done a couple of various panel upgrades, I'm still very much in learning mode. It's also extremely time consuming to do it correctly. I'm 130+ man hours into my current project (engine monitor + audio panel + new Comm 2) and still not done. And this isn't my first project.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Especially with Garmin, which does everything they can to make it hard/impossible by non-Garmin shops.
FYI: You'll find when Garmin first came out with their 150 and 155 they weren't as restrictive on who could install them. However, given it was "new" technology not everyone mastered how to install them properly. Unfortunately, Garmin got hit with a bunch of warranty claims due to installation issues and not equipment issues. So the only way to control those claims was to control who could install them. Regardless, I think a number of dealers take their position a bit too far and could help out more.
Meh, only real issue with Garmin is getting access to install manuals for non-over-the-counter parts (which isn't really that hard if you know who to ask or where to look, at least for the more ordinary units; the EFIS G500/600 TXI and the GFCs are another story). The actual install isn't any different, so long as you actually read and follow the manuals (which even a lt of shops fail to do).
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4RNB
Manual are pretty easy to find with modern computers and browsers.
Getting current and full manuals can be trickier. Not impossible, but Garmin updates those regularly and I wouldn't want to do a new install w/ old manuals.
Jon Wilder
Pre-takeoff checklist
I once worked for a shop that was on an airfield where another shop used to be (both shops were in business at the same time). A guy with a Beech Baron 58TC brought it to the other shop with a G500 legacy, Century autopilot, GNS 530/430 stack, panel mount GTX 345, GDL 69A, Ryan/Avidyne 9900BX (TAS 600), and GWX 70. This shop sold him a display upgrade to a G600 TXi, GTN 750Xi/650Xi stack, GMA 35c audio panel, GFC 600 autopilot, and change the GTX 345 panel mount to a remote mount unit.
The shop stopped working on the plane altogether halfway through the install. The customer kept prodding the guy to get it done. The guy claimed to be "only two weeks away". The plane had been down at the shop for 2+ years. Eventually the shop got evicted off of the airfield and the plane and all of his purchased avionics locked inside.
The customer had to take the city to court to get a court order for the city to let him pull his plane out.
The plane sat at his mechanics shop until the other avionics shop was talked into taking custody of it, under the condition that they'd work on it when they had time, which was never.
Two years later, I get hired on, and I inherited the project, as I'm an addict for those sorts of projects.
The first shop...they completely disassembled the interior, and whatever additional harnesses they did build weren't done very well and much of the old display wiring was a sorry attempt at salvaging the old wiring. The entire thing was a complete mess. I spent two days going through it all before I finally told the boss "We'd be time and money ahead if we just demo'd all of the avionics wiring and bench build a whole new harness." He didn't want to hear that. But running this by Garmin, they agreed with me. The FSDO told the boss "Anything you sign off from the other shop, you own it." The customer thought he was getting all new wiring as part of the original installation. So it was decided to do it my way.
I gutted every bit of avionics wiring and built a fresh new harness. In 4-5 months I had everything wired, programmed, tested, and debugged.
The plane is 5 years out of annual and is now at the mechanics shop. They got the engines running, but the left turbo waste gate was frozen solid and had to be overhauled. The landing gear box is leaking and also has to be overhauled. So still a bit of work to do to get her flyable again. But the new avionics are all in and ready to go and the owner now sees light at the end of the tunnel.
The guy has owned the plane since the early 90s. It was his main flyer and he'd even recently had it repainted. It was way too nice an airplane to be sitting as a messy torn apart hangar queen.
The shop stopped working on the plane altogether halfway through the install. The customer kept prodding the guy to get it done. The guy claimed to be "only two weeks away". The plane had been down at the shop for 2+ years. Eventually the shop got evicted off of the airfield and the plane and all of his purchased avionics locked inside.
The customer had to take the city to court to get a court order for the city to let him pull his plane out.
The plane sat at his mechanics shop until the other avionics shop was talked into taking custody of it, under the condition that they'd work on it when they had time, which was never.
Two years later, I get hired on, and I inherited the project, as I'm an addict for those sorts of projects.
The first shop...they completely disassembled the interior, and whatever additional harnesses they did build weren't done very well and much of the old display wiring was a sorry attempt at salvaging the old wiring. The entire thing was a complete mess. I spent two days going through it all before I finally told the boss "We'd be time and money ahead if we just demo'd all of the avionics wiring and bench build a whole new harness." He didn't want to hear that. But running this by Garmin, they agreed with me. The FSDO told the boss "Anything you sign off from the other shop, you own it." The customer thought he was getting all new wiring as part of the original installation. So it was decided to do it my way.
I gutted every bit of avionics wiring and built a fresh new harness. In 4-5 months I had everything wired, programmed, tested, and debugged.
The plane is 5 years out of annual and is now at the mechanics shop. They got the engines running, but the left turbo waste gate was frozen solid and had to be overhauled. The landing gear box is leaking and also has to be overhauled. So still a bit of work to do to get her flyable again. But the new avionics are all in and ready to go and the owner now sees light at the end of the tunnel.
The guy has owned the plane since the early 90s. It was his main flyer and he'd even recently had it repainted. It was way too nice an airplane to be sitting as a messy torn apart hangar queen.
That is a nightmare scenario. Yikes.
Gary Ward
En-Route
Great example why you should do some due diligence before deciding who does the work and don't always go with the cheapest shop.
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Due diligence is mandatory but don’t assume you should avoid cheap, sometimes it’s the better choice. I’ve mentioned this in another thread…There are a number of quality & reliable avionics shops within 50 miles of downtown Denver. One (which previously worked on the Cherokee) told me flat out they don’t work on small spam cans anymore, a second quoted so high that I wish they had been honest and just said they don’t want to work on small spam cans. fortunately the 3rd was honest enough to provide a reasonable quote but admitted they can’t do it anytime within the next 60 days, they’ll call when they can get me on the schedule.
My tech, helicopter avionics guy that is allowed to do fixed wing on his own time by agreement with his company, gets a discount on Garmin products from his company that he passes on to customers and works at $80/hr. I would put the quality of his work up against anyone. As part of the sale of one airplane to the right connection, I am getting any Garmin avionics I will be installing in the 'new' plane at dealer cost. There are hidden gems out there; I happened to stub my toe on one without looking.
Gary Ward
En-Route
IMO
It is important to deal with a full time well connected garmin dealer for service after the sale. Because there will be lot's of support needed after the sale. Not because the equipment or installation is going to faulty, but because garmin is always updating their stuff and you need a dealer well connected to garmin to keep it updated.
My dealer is local, only works on 6000# or smaller aircraft. He has called me numerous times to stop by and they either applied a SB to my AP or preformed software or firmware updates. And when I got a new Ipad 6 it didn't connect every time without me re booting it every time. Scott had heard that from other customers and had a update from garmin to solve it. All for free. He talks to them I bet almost everyday. He called his guy while I was sitting there one day.
They are most important to me to keep my garmin panel in top shape since 2018. They were the most expensive at the time but I knew they had a good track record and are local which meant a lot to me.
It is important to deal with a full time well connected garmin dealer for service after the sale. Because there will be lot's of support needed after the sale. Not because the equipment or installation is going to faulty, but because garmin is always updating their stuff and you need a dealer well connected to garmin to keep it updated.
My dealer is local, only works on 6000# or smaller aircraft. He has called me numerous times to stop by and they either applied a SB to my AP or preformed software or firmware updates. And when I got a new Ipad 6 it didn't connect every time without me re booting it every time. Scott had heard that from other customers and had a update from garmin to solve it. All for free. He talks to them I bet almost everyday. He called his guy while I was sitting there one day.
They are most important to me to keep my garmin panel in top shape since 2018. They were the most expensive at the time but I knew they had a good track record and are local which meant a lot to me.
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Gary Ward
En-Route
My shop has lost 2 guys in the last few years since my plane was there. The longest my plane was in his shop was 10 days. It was there 3 different times it was never there longer than 10 days for garmin everything.
1st trip was for a GMA345,650 gps,510fs, GTX345, 2-G5s all new audio jacks front and back all the small stuff to make work together. It worked flawless the first time.
I tried to reuse my POS arc radio for the com/nav2. The nav portion crapped out soon after and the com2 was terrible compared to com 1.
It went back for a 255 com/nav 2 and indicator. Was there for 3 days. Again it worked great first try.
6 months later it went back for a GFC500, 10 days later it was finished and worked great. in spring of 2019. I went there 3 times late afternoon near quitting time while my plane was there to checkout the progress and took dozens of pictures. They are great about that. At the time they told it was only their 3rd GFC install in a 172.
Since then both of my hangar neighbors had one installed in their 182 and Arrow II , dealer says they install a new one almost every week in something now. My 182 friend just had his put in Dec 2024.
Sure glad they were local because all of my servos got replaced on garmin since then and they replaced the servos one at time while I waited 3 different times, while I watched.
3 of my hangar neighbors use them that I know about as I am the air uber driver. Now it is about a 7 month lead time and the work takes more like 6-8 weeks for work like I had done. They do have other larger planes that are in the shop for longer for sure.
See that grease coming out of the old servo? That is a problem. They are now assembled in Kansas.
Here is SB part that was installed for my AP, paid for by garmin. My dealer called me and asked me to bring it in so they could install it. Otherwise I would never have known it was needed.
Installed while I waited.
1st trip was for a GMA345,650 gps,510fs, GTX345, 2-G5s all new audio jacks front and back all the small stuff to make work together. It worked flawless the first time.
I tried to reuse my POS arc radio for the com/nav2. The nav portion crapped out soon after and the com2 was terrible compared to com 1.
It went back for a 255 com/nav 2 and indicator. Was there for 3 days. Again it worked great first try.
6 months later it went back for a GFC500, 10 days later it was finished and worked great. in spring of 2019. I went there 3 times late afternoon near quitting time while my plane was there to checkout the progress and took dozens of pictures. They are great about that. At the time they told it was only their 3rd GFC install in a 172.
Since then both of my hangar neighbors had one installed in their 182 and Arrow II , dealer says they install a new one almost every week in something now. My 182 friend just had his put in Dec 2024.
Sure glad they were local because all of my servos got replaced on garmin since then and they replaced the servos one at time while I waited 3 different times, while I watched.
3 of my hangar neighbors use them that I know about as I am the air uber driver. Now it is about a 7 month lead time and the work takes more like 6-8 weeks for work like I had done. They do have other larger planes that are in the shop for longer for sure.
See that grease coming out of the old servo? That is a problem. They are now assembled in Kansas.
Here is SB part that was installed for my AP, paid for by garmin. My dealer called me and asked me to bring it in so they could install it. Otherwise I would never have known it was needed.
Installed while I waited.
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In general, needing a dealer in your network is more specific to the Garmin model number than anything else. I had a similar ability where I could buy Garmin equipment through my day job employer or through a dedicated avionics vender. I can't recall ever having a major problem with Garmin support for anything I needed to correct a customer's problem on equipment I installed. So long as the installer understands how Garmin operates and doesn't try to be stupid with them, it can be a route to save some money and get the equipment you want.
sourdough44
En-Route
Very sorry about the ordeal, I’d look for an exit of some sort. I imagine it’s not easily flyable now.
My panel won’t win any awards, that’s ok with me. Back in the day I flew to Alaska with a boat Loran(where it worked), a weak VOR, and looking out the window. Now I get by with a newer KX-155, GPS-175, 2 G-5’s, and my IPad Mini, tied to the GDL-50.
I’d tell them you want the aircraft flyable, to leave, then bring it somewhere with better reviews.
My panel won’t win any awards, that’s ok with me. Back in the day I flew to Alaska with a boat Loran(where it worked), a weak VOR, and looking out the window. Now I get by with a newer KX-155, GPS-175, 2 G-5’s, and my IPad Mini, tied to the GDL-50.
I’d tell them you want the aircraft flyable, to leave, then bring it somewhere with better reviews.