The new era of not being able to hide pilot mistakes

MountainDude

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MountainDude
Since the advent of ADS-B and ATC live, people off the street can both see the plane track and hear the ATC, so pilot mistakes can no longer be hidden.
Do you think there is a chance these pilots have a hard time finding jobs in the short and/or long term?

 
There is a reason my personal plane has tiny N, or in its case NC, numbers and no electrical system, much less risk to my career.

ADSB has always about tracking, enforcement and fees, basically moving us to a Europe or Asian style system for GA and Corp

Flying into all the busy airspace with work before and after the ADSB rules I see next to no difference from a 121 standpoint when it comes to separation, efficiency and safety
 
Only if their names are publicized somewhere for the hiring managers to cross check…
 
Only if their names are publicized somewhere for the hiring managers to cross check…
If I got a enforcement action on the GA side I’d imagine the company would not be happy with me
 
No ADSB, no radio, no electrical system, no TXP, no problem. I can even operate within the class B to an uncontrolled field with just my handheld and my GPS guided map on my Galaxy. I'm also in a wood covered plane, so my radar return looks like a smudge of pizza on the scope. GFY fed nazis.
 
I don’t think so unless it becomes a reportable incident to the FAA. My interview first question was “any accidents or incidents.” Since she didn’t specify FAA so I gave her a story of an accident I had in the military but she only wanted FAA accidents. Basically anything that could come up in a PRIA or the now, PRD.
 
ADSB has always about tracking, enforcement and fees, basically moving us to a Europe or Asian style system for GA and Corp

wrong - ADS-B is about tracking. It was never about enforcement and fees.

Were you involved in the development of ADS-A and ADS-B at all?
 
I dunno. People make mistakes. If it’s not something reportable by PRIA or doesn’t come up with a general question like, “tell us about something you did stupid in an airplane,” I doubt an employer would care about some armchair analyst unless it was part of a pattern.

But a little paranoia can be fun.
 
wrong - ADS-B is about tracking. It was never about enforcement and fees.
That was the original intent. Aren't some airports now charging landing fees based, at least in part, on ADSB data? I think there is a thread or two about it.
 
wrong - ADS-B is about tracking. It was never about enforcement and fees.

Were you involved in the development of ADS-A and ADS-B at all?


The writing was on the wall

And there are already companies who make their living off issuing fees off ADSB tracks

Think the FAA also used ADSB data as evidence against pilots, I believe they showed pings on that lady who flew under the bridge and maybe also Trent

The system was built to be abused

I had nothing to do with the design, I’m a pilot and love aviation, I would not work on something like that

Think the sales pitch was kapstone in Alaska, but as I recall the Alaskans were wise and the feds had to promise it could never be used against a pilot before they would adopt it, I do not believe such assurances were made with ADSB
 
“She didn't get in trouble because of her pings, she got in trouble because she turned them off.”

Same difference.
 
“She didn't get in trouble because of her pings, she got in trouble because she turned them off.”

Same difference.
Trouble of some kind, yes. But “In trouble for her pings” would probably have been a suspension. “Turned them off” was the stated basis for the revocation. Getting certificates back after 30 or 60 days is generally considered very different than having to take checkrides. YMMV.
 
That dude's neighbor really should take down his "rabbit" Christmas lights.
 
She didn't get in trouble because of her pings, she got in trouble because she turned them off.
No... She got in trouble because she openly talked about checking it off her bucket list. Then they found a way to go after her and that was the easiest one to prove, which (if I remember correctly) she did not contest.
 
No... She got in trouble because she openly talked about checking it off her bucket list. Then they found a way to go after her and that was the easiest one to prove, which (if I remember correctly) she did not contest.


Is that not the exact same thing?

The fact that’s using ADSB data (via commission or omission) as something to hang a airman on goes to show what the ADSB system is used by “the system” for

Also a reason I explicitly looked for a plane that could run both auto fuel and one that was grandfathered into no transponder

I don’t do anything against the FARs, however that has not stopped the FAA from coming going after someone
 
Is that not the exact same thing?

The fact that’s using ADSB data (via commission or omission) as something to hang a airman on goes to show what the ADSB system is used by “the system” for
It's a clear FAR violation to turn it off. That doesn't mean what you think it means.
 
ADSB was supposed to help pilots. More and more airports are going to fees with ADSB being used to bill the aircraft.also you can be sure it will be used in more and more enforcement cases.
 
ADSB was supposed to help pilots. More and more airports are going to fees with ADSB being used to bill the aircraft.also you can be sure it will be used in more and more enforcement cases.

I missed the memo on it being for we the pilots

What’s ADSB stand for again?

ADSB was always going to be used where and how ADSB is is currently being used.

A good hint was how you were forced to buy and install it, vs it being so valuable folks who adopt it like cell phones and LEDs
 
I missed the memo on it being for we the pilots
Yes, you did. IIRC, UPS developed it for themselves and they still couple it with some additional technology to save themselves a metric crapton of fuel. Then the FAA put it together with weather broadcasting (FIS-B) and paid for a bunch of planes in Alaska to have it installed so that they could see if it made an impact on safety, and it made a big impact up there. Then they realized that if everyone had it, not only would it improve safety but they could probably decommission a bunch of expensive radar sites.

So it wasn't just for us, but it wasn't ever "we can charge fees like crazy", it was "we can save a lot of money AND improve safety."
What’s ADSB stand for again?
Presumably you're latched on to that whole "Surveillance" thing. Surveillance isn't just what the FBI van does. It means "to keep a close watch over something". And if the government wanted to be big brother, they wouldn't put it right in the title, especially when they already have other means to watch you all the time (not just when you're in your airplane).

A good hint was how you were forced to buy and install it, vs it being so valuable folks who adopt it like cell phones and LEDs
It's not particularly useful until it's widespread. Keep in mind that not many people had a large color screen in their panel or an EFB back when it was being developed and when the mandate first came out.
 
Yes, you did. IIRC, UPS developed it for themselves and they still couple it with some additional technology to save themselves a metric crapton of fuel. Then the FAA put it together with weather broadcasting (FIS-B) and paid for a bunch of planes in Alaska to have it installed so that they could see if it made an impact on safety, and it made a big impact up there. Then they realized that if everyone had it, not only would it improve safety but they could probably decommission a bunch of expensive radar sites.

So it wasn't just for us, but it wasn't ever "we can charge fees like crazy", it was "we can save a lot of money AND improve safety."

Presumably you're latched on to that whole "Surveillance" thing. Surveillance isn't just what the FBI van does. It means "to keep a close watch over something". And if the government wanted to be big brother, they wouldn't put it right in the title, especially when they already have other means to watch you all the time (not just when you're in your airplane).


It's not particularly useful until it's widespread. Keep in mind that not many people had a large color screen in their panel or an EFB back when it was being developed and when the mandate first came out.


How does it allow them to decommission a radar site?

I have not noticed any improvement in the approaches I fly at work, separation, or anything else

Never noticed mention of ADSB allowing for lower mins on a approach, I see RADAR OR DME required often
 
Keep in mind that not many people had a large color screen in their panel or an EFB back when it was being developed and when the mandate first came out.
I can’t speak for when they started developing it, but when the mandate came out I had large color screens, and I was behind the general aviation population in that regard.
 
How does it allow them to decommission a radar site?
If everyone has ADS-B, where is the value of airport surveillance radar?

Of course, national defense and other such matters have resulted in exactly zero radars going offline, but that was a big part of the conversation early on.
I have not noticed any improvement in the approaches I fly at work, separation, or anything else
It's only been a few years since the mandate took effect... And I don't think we were ever supposed to see those sorts of improvements.

It should be possible to decrease enroute separation by using ADS-B data, but shorter range radars update more quickly so there's not as much benefit operationally.
Never noticed mention of ADSB allowing for lower mins on a approach, I see RADAR OR DME required often
I wouldn't expect anything else - Even if actual radars had been decommissioned, I think they'd have used it as a synonym for "ADS-B coverage".
 
I can’t speak for when they started developing it, but when the mandate came out I had large color screens, and I was behind the general aviation population in that regard.
When the mandate took effect, sure. The mandate existed a LONG time ago, and it was delayed several times, for a number of years. IIRC the initial effective date was going to be 2008. AOPA was talking about the ADS-B mandate when I first joined in 2001, just a couple years after the Garmin 430 was first introduced and before any EFBs (at least those we would recognize as such today) existed.
 
If everyone has ADS-B, where is the value of airport surveillance radar?

one of the (several) problems with the ADS-B implementation is the need to validate ADS-B reports... absent radar, it is, ahem, challenging to make sure ADS-B reports aren't being spoofed.
 
Yes, you did. IIRC, UPS developed it for themselves and they still couple it with some additional technology to save themselves a metric crapton of fuel. Then the FAA put it together with weather broadcasting (FIS-B) and paid for a bunch of planes in Alaska to have it installed so that they could see if it made an impact on safety, and it made a big impact up there. Then they realized that if everyone had it, not only would it improve safety but they could probably decommission a bunch of expensive radar sites.

So it wasn't just for us, but it wasn't ever "we can charge fees like crazy", it was "we can save a lot of money AND improve safety."

Presumably you're latched on to that whole "Surveillance" thing. Surveillance isn't just what the FBI van does. It means "to keep a close watch over something". And if the government wanted to be big brother, they wouldn't put it right in the title, especially when they already have other means to watch you all the time (not just when you're in your airplane).


It's not particularly useful until it's widespread. Keep in mind that not many people had a large color screen in their panel or an EFB back when it was being developed and when the mandate first came out.

How does it allow them to decommission a radar site?

I have not noticed any improvement in the approaches I fly at work, separation, or anything else

Never noticed mention of ADSB allowing for lower mins on a approach, I see RADAR OR DME required often


As for airline fuel burn and company info, not idea what the brown guys do, but we send our data over ACARS

There is also ADSB C


The performance of ground based radar is also different than GPS based ADSB
 
I'd rather focus on training and flying than avoiding ADSB and the like (if I were no good)
 
I'd rather focus on training and flying than avoiding ADSB and the like (if I were no good)



Companies like Vector and agencies such as the FAA often lack the noble focus we hope for.

While we teach our children about right and wrong, as adults, we recognize that morality is more complex—often as illusory as an Elf on the Shelf.

There’s a reason lawyers advise never speaking to the police, even when innocent. Like an ADS-B track, your words can be twisted and used against you, regardless of intent.

Whether you agree with ADS-B or the FAA's enforcement methods, they will send you a letter demanding payment or threatening your certificate—sometimes justifiably, but often without cause.

If you're caught in their net, the only option is to spend time and money proving your innocence. Unfortunately, there are no consequences for the FAA or companies like Vector for putting you through that process. "Beatings will continue until morale improves."

Many airline pilots avoid general aviation for this reason.

The FAA has a hotline for complaints, whether about low-flying aircraft or anything else. With an increasing number of Karens, many know that the process itself can be the punishment, prompting FAA investigations.

Some people simply dislike airplanes. A quick Google search reveals how to identify the aircraft that flew overhead, and apps make it even easier. If I fly over a complainer’s house, they may report my N-number, triggering an investigation—even if I did nothing wrong. Without a transponder, small N-numbers, and flying within legal altitudes, I can stop the issue all together
 
Companies like Vector and agencies such as the FAA often lack the noble focus we hope for.

While we teach our children about right and wrong, as adults, we recognize that morality is more complex—often as illusory as an Elf on the Shelf.

There’s a reason lawyers advise never speaking to the police, even when innocent. Like an ADS-B track, your words can be twisted and used against you, regardless of intent.

Whether you agree with ADS-B or the FAA's enforcement methods, they will send you a letter demanding payment or threatening your certificate—sometimes justifiably, but often without cause.

If you're caught in their net, the only option is to spend time and money proving your innocence. Unfortunately, there are no consequences for the FAA or companies like Vector for putting you through that process. "Beatings will continue until morale improves."

Many airline pilots avoid general aviation for this reason.

The FAA has a hotline for complaints, whether about low-flying aircraft or anything else. With an increasing number of Karens, many know that the process itself can be the punishment, prompting FAA investigations.

Some people simply dislike airplanes. A quick Google search reveals how to identify the aircraft that flew overhead, and apps make it even easier. If I fly over a complainer’s house, they may report my N-number, triggering an investigation—even if I did nothing wrong. Without a transponder, small N-numbers, and flying within legal altitudes, I can stop the issue all together
Knew a older airline pilot at the airport, believe Pan Am. We both had mooneys and asked about his GA flying. He said he never flew "small" planes before retirement because of endangering his airline career through accidents or enforcement. That was a new thing for me.
 
The accuracy, refresh rate and failure variables of a ground based radar are in a whole different universe compared to ADSB, two different tools for two mostly different tasks

Even if everyone in a Orwellian world had ADSB, you want me to fly 300+ people on approach, trusting completely in a Bobs Bonanza having a good ADSB signal?
Bad install
Popped breaker
GPS outage
Bad signal to the ADSB tower
Bad ADSB coverage, which is very common in non urban areas.
The list goes on

Compared to a real radar where the controller has the fidelity to even detect flock of birds?


ADSB is not something that can properly replace real radar, plus for reasons of national security, nope
 
As for airline fuel burn and company info, not idea what the brown guys do, but we send our data over ACARS
UPS is a bit unique in that they are pretty much monopolizing airports where they have hubs at their busiest times - There's not many pax flights going into Louisville in the middle of the night. But, UPS' own planes all descend upon KSDF in a pretty short timeframe, which was resulting in lots of low altitude holding and vectoring, which was using a LOT of fuel.

The solution they built uses ADS-B and a method of communicating back to the planes (I don't know the specifics of that part). They can use the data they receive on the ground to very accurately determine the time when each flight is going to arrive in the SDF area, and then they send a signal back to the planes and slow down some of the flights by a few knots, such that the aircraft hit the arrival gates into SDF at even intervals and get sent right down the approach, eliminating the low-level delays and associated fuel.

It was proposed that eventually, when everyone was equipped, that it would be possible for airlines to cooperate with each other to achieve the same thing going into busy hub airports, but that doesn't appear to have happened yet.

The accuracy, refresh rate and failure variables of a ground based radar are in a whole different universe compared to ADSB, two different tools for two mostly different tasks

Even if everyone in a Orwellian world had ADSB, you want me to fly 300+ people on approach, trusting completely in a Bobs Bonanza having a good ADSB signal?
You already do that, trusting that Bob's Bonanza has an encoding altimeter that's working properly... Obviously that's only one of the three dimensions but it is an important one. Plus, it should be easy enough using only long-range Center radars to determine whether Bob's ADS-B is working properly. It was never intended to replace ALL radar.
 
UPS is a bit unique in that they are pretty much monopolizing airports where they have hubs at their busiest times - There's not many pax flights going into Louisville in the middle of the night. But, UPS' own planes all descend upon KSDF in a pretty short timeframe, which was resulting in lots of low altitude holding and vectoring, which was using a LOT of fuel.

The solution they built uses ADS-B and a method of communicating back to the planes (I don't know the specifics of that part). They can use the data they receive on the ground to very accurately determine the time when each flight is going to arrive in the SDF area, and then they send a signal back to the planes and slow down some of the flights by a few knots, such that the aircraft hit the arrival gates into SDF at even intervals and get sent right down the approach, eliminating the low-level delays and associated fuel.

It was proposed that eventually, when everyone was equipped, that it would be possible for airlines to cooperate with each other to achieve the same thing going into busy hub airports, but that doesn't appear to have happened yet.


You already do that, trusting that Bob's Bonanza has an encoding altimeter that's working properly... Obviously that's only one of the three dimensions but it is an important one. Plus, it should be easy enough using only long-range Center radars to determine whether Bob's ADS-B is working properly. It was never intended to replace ALL radar.

Interesting, guess they wanted a more real time always on company position report, which we normally send via ACARS at predetermined time intervals or if asked


Per radar, not exactly, you still have a live primary target, and the reason you need two way radio radio comms is also altitude verification, hence when someone isn’t talking to ATC, they will give you the location and altitude of traffic but add “altitude unverified”


Maybe someone marketed replacing all radar with ADSB, but I promise you that day was never going to come, for many reasons

Someone has a electrical issue, no comms no ADSB, gets lost and flys through the approach corridor, in the all ADSB no radar world he would be invisible until someone hopefully saw him out the window, or smashed into him

The fidelity issue, ADSB is just not fast enough nor accurate enough for tight work, let alone if some poor soul needs to be walked down

National security, no radar no detection of aircraft without ADSB out, I’m sure you can see where that goes

GPS, if there was a solar flair or other wide GPS issue, you would have to stop all IFR flights, airlines, medevacs, cargo, charter, everything
 
Maybe someone marketed replacing all radar with ADSB, but I promise you that day was never going to come, for many reasons
Agreed. But that's not what I'm talking about. Leave all the long-range center radars in place, use them for ADS-B verification, and you could probably get rid of most of the ASRs.
Someone has a electrical issue, no comms no ADSB, gets lost and flys through the approach corridor, in the all ADSB no radar world he would be invisible until someone hopefully saw him out the window, or smashed into him
Still possible to paint with center radar and put onto a TRACON scope with a 10-second update interval instead of 3.
The fidelity issue, ADSB is just not fast enough nor accurate enough for tight work, let alone if some poor soul needs to be walked down
ADS-B position updates happen every 1/2 second. It's way faster than radar.
National security, no radar no detection of aircraft without ADSB out, I’m sure you can see where that goes
That's the primary reason radar will never go away, but you don't need individual ASRs.
GPS, if there was a solar flair or other wide GPS issue, you would have to stop all IFR flights, airlines, medevacs, cargo, charter, everything
...or go into normal reduced radar and/or nonradar procedures, just like they do when doing maintenance on radar today.
 
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