That's a pretty reasonable price. They're extremely labor intensive to install, and it takes way more time than you think to remove all the old stuff.
Engine Monitor Upgrade
- Thread starter Nikhiln25
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That's a pretty reasonable price. They're extremely labor intensive to install, and it takes way more time than you think to remove all the old stuff.
Yes..this did include fuel probes.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
$12K in labor seems high to me. How many hours is that based on?
I installed my 830 myself. I doubt it took more than a week, and it was my first time. That did not include fuel tank indicators, so I don't know how much more effort that requires.
The 900 and 930 both fit in a 3 1/8" gauge hole, but the 930 overlaps more into the adjacent gauge footprint. With you pulling all the old steam gauges out, it is surprising they couldn't find a way to put it in without cutting a new panel.
Let's ballpark:
Remove old gauges and sensors: 8 hours
Install breaker and route power and ground: 4 hours
Install head unit: 2 hours
Install 6x CHT: 3 hours
Install 6x EGT: 3 hours
Install OT sensor: 1 hour
Install OP sensor: 1 hour
Install MP sensor: 1 hour
Install RPM sensor: 1 hour
Install OAT sensor: 2 hours
Install Carb temp sensor: 2 hours
Install fuel tank sensors: ???
Fabricate and install fuel flow hoses and sensor: 4 hours
Bundle wires, pass thru firewall, connect to head unit: 4 hours
Testing and calibration: 4 hours
Paperwork: 2 hours
Gremlins and screw ups: 8 hours
-----------------------
Total: 52+
I think 60 hours is reasonable if no panel cutting required. If you need an new panel, all bets are off.
I installed my 830 myself. I doubt it took more than a week, and it was my first time. That did not include fuel tank indicators, so I don't know how much more effort that requires.
The 900 and 930 both fit in a 3 1/8" gauge hole, but the 930 overlaps more into the adjacent gauge footprint. With you pulling all the old steam gauges out, it is surprising they couldn't find a way to put it in without cutting a new panel.
Let's ballpark:
Remove old gauges and sensors: 8 hours
Install breaker and route power and ground: 4 hours
Install head unit: 2 hours
Install 6x CHT: 3 hours
Install 6x EGT: 3 hours
Install OT sensor: 1 hour
Install OP sensor: 1 hour
Install MP sensor: 1 hour
Install RPM sensor: 1 hour
Install OAT sensor: 2 hours
Install Carb temp sensor: 2 hours
Install fuel tank sensors: ???
Fabricate and install fuel flow hoses and sensor: 4 hours
Bundle wires, pass thru firewall, connect to head unit: 4 hours
Testing and calibration: 4 hours
Paperwork: 2 hours
Gremlins and screw ups: 8 hours
-----------------------
Total: 52+
I think 60 hours is reasonable if no panel cutting required. If you need an new panel, all bets are off.
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I looked back at the quote.. To avoid covering holes with plastic inserts etc. and to make a more professional looking install it was suggested to cut a panel. The panel was included in the $20K. The JPI 930 could definitely be installed without cutting a panel. This shop has done lots of work on my plane in the past. I have always been happy with them and the previous installs looked nice.
The non-Certified 730 and 830 allow the user to set the redline for CHT/EGT. The certified version is required to have the factory limits programmed in.
I have had a 730 in a 182P that I later upgraded to the certified version (EDM900). I had a different 182 with the 830. I think the main difference is the manifold pressure and RPM. I think the 830 comes standard with probes that are optional on the 730. In the plane with the 830 I kept the analog tach and MP gauge. I didn't like the real estate that the RPM/MP took up on the 830 so I called JPI and they walked me through how to tell the 830 it was a 730 (through the power on sequence).
If I had your plane I would add the probes you desire to the 730. I realize others have good reasons to support the 830/900. Whatever you choose I think you'll be happy with the JPI.
Here's an older thread:
www.pilotsofamerica.com
I have had a 730 in a 182P that I later upgraded to the certified version (EDM900). I had a different 182 with the 830. I think the main difference is the manifold pressure and RPM. I think the 830 comes standard with probes that are optional on the 730. In the plane with the 830 I kept the analog tach and MP gauge. I didn't like the real estate that the RPM/MP took up on the 830 so I called JPI and they walked me through how to tell the 830 it was a 730 (through the power on sequence).
If I had your plane I would add the probes you desire to the 730. I realize others have good reasons to support the 830/900. Whatever you choose I think you'll be happy with the JPI.
Here's an older thread:
JPI EDM 730 vs EDM 830
Apologies in advance for the flood of topics I'm going to be starting in the next few days as I try and finalise my decision on my panel upgrades... I currently have a JPI EDM-730 with fuel flow installed. I've been quoted ~$2300 to buy and install all the additional sensors (MP, RPM, OAT, Oil...
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
930 will require cutting new panel, 900 doesn’t.
My 900 was less than $10K, but that was 6-7 years ago.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
You can program in lower user limits for the CHTs, I set mine for 400°.
I have found that the bar graph on the CGR-30P is virtually useless. The resolution on the EGT bars is such that there is no noiceable movement when turning off one mag or when leaning. Thus, IMHO, it is highly unlilely that it will detect a fouled sparkplug, clogged injector or failing exhaust valve. I previously had an Insight engine monitor in which the bars would detect EGT variances in increments of 25 degrees.
When I had mine that option wasn't available. That certainly is a great upgrade. I think the factory redlines are required to be programmed and cannot be changed, but that is a moot point if user settable alarms can be set. I checked Grok an this was the response:
The JPI EDM900 engine monitor began allowing programming of user-set alarms with version 1.30.1000 and later, as mentioned by J.P. Instruments on their official website.
You can decrease the EGT temperature range. The instructions were in one of documents sent with the unit.
I also changed the CHT alarms limits but that required an A&P signature and a software update.
baboss
Line Up and Wait
It helps to put it in Normalize mode to change the scale.
From EI: "The Bar Graph can be easily “Normalized” to create a baseline from which to monitor in-flight engine temperature changes. When Normalized, all EGT or CHT bars will be displayed as equal in height. If any cylinder’s EGT or CHT changes in relation to the other cylinders, that cylinder’s bar height will no longer be shown at the same height as the others. Such information can be an essential indicator of engine problems."
I have decreased the EGT range. The problem is however, the resolution does not change, i.e, all but extrme temeperature changes such as a non-firing cylinder will not alter the height of the bars.
The normalized mode does not change the resolution of the bar heights. It just makes the bar heights even with each other.
Having installed a couple of engine monitors DIY (and being in the final stages of doing one right now, a CGR30P), I think all of those tasks times are pretty damn close, though I might moved gremlins and screwups to 16 hours. Every 1 hour job is one stripped screw away from being a 10 hour job...
But at $100+ per hour (some avionics and A&P shops are $130+ per hour), plus the cost of the actual engine monitor itself and all of the necessary shop supplies, fittings, hoses, etc., $20k still isn't all that far off. I'm probably $1500 into just random fittings, hoses, other parts, and "while you're in there" work into my job.
AV8R_87
Cleared for Takeoff
And this is why I tell owners that they need to learn how to work on these installs under A&P supervision.
A lot of non-skilled but time consuming tasks, plus some of the removal and cleanup work can be done even by the most unskilled owner. If you're willing to learn a few things, tasks such as making and routing a new wire harness become easy. Even installing a fuel flow transducer can be a relatively easy task, if you work with a good A&P.
And at that point 12k in labor can easily drop down to a fifth of that, or less.
Plus, if something isn't working right, the owner can only blame himself, then proceed to fix it.
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I agree, to an extent. I wouldn't go so far as to say "Even the most unskilled owner." While this stuff isn't terribly difficult for me, I've been working on cars (and now airplanes) since I was in high school. I'm not the most mechanical person I know, but I know my way around tools and can usually figure out how something works, and I'm comfortable taking things apart, etc. As I've gotten a little older, I've found that the vast majority of people don't know which side of the screwdriver to use and don't have any interest in learning.
I'd worked on my airplanes for several years, slowly working my way up the "Difficulty" ladder, before I undertook a solo engine monitor install. Did my first one on an unpressurized twin that was pretty easy to work on. Still, there was an enormous learning cure there. And now that I'm doing another one on my Duke, there's another steep learning curve.
AV8R_87
Cleared for Takeoff
Key point being "under A&P supervision".
First time I removed and cleaned the plugs I knew nothing about it, and I would've probably twisted the wires off.
A&P handed me two wrenches, pointed out to the tiny nut one above the main one and said "hold that one still while you loosen the main one, that way your plug wires don't get damaged".
