Cirrus success

[Bell206]

Think you're defining a product segment, not a market segment.

Not really. Market segmentation focuses on the customer. And Cirrus has defined which customer group they target and have adapted their product/strategy to meet that need. To say Cirrus influences an entire market segment simply because they have higher sales volume is missing the point.

But I’m hardly an expert on this and simply sharing the trends and data I have seen/used from people who track this for a living. Regardless, some people will only look at a Cirrus… or a Bonanza... as being the cats azz with no peer and that’s fine too. However, within the industry there are those who get a chuckle out of these discussions just like I do on occasion.

 

[Hang 4]

IMO, Cirrus isn’t the Bonanza’s primary competition. If you can buy a SETP for not much more, or a good King Air 90 for half as much, why go for a Bonanza?

$/operating hour. SETP puts you in a whole different level.

 

[MauleSkinner]

$/operating hour. SETP puts you in a whole different level.

A new Bonanza is already a whole different level.

 

[robin ardoin]

@flyingcheesehead said “ Well, I mean, you can, if you want to go that slow. ”

I say….

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don’t know the reasons, but Purdue started using Cirrus for 10 years then shifted to Piper. I’m guessing parents liked that (I know I would).

Parents liked Cirrus, or the shift to Piper? You must have meant Cirrus, right? With the chute, and the wings that don't fall off?

There must be something to the recurring mx ledger of these composite BRS equipped bathtubs that isn't competitive against a 172s/PA28s.

If it was 10 years, maybe it was the chute repack? I've never had to maintain a Cirrus, so I don't know of any other things that would show up there, except maybe they were putting enough time on them that they were starting to get too close to the 12,000 hour airframe life limit to be worth anything when sold?

I second those comments for the Tecnam twin and the Diamonds, before people think it's a cirrus specific critique as a trainer.

I don't know much about the Tecnam twin either. For the Diamonds, they have a progressive maintenance program that is not at all costly and results in there being no airframe life limit. It made a GREAT plane for the club, maintenance was only about 50%-60% per hour what it was on the metal birds.

@flyingcheesehead said “ Well, I mean, you can, if you want to go that slow. ”

I say….

View attachment 136770

That's nice and all, but what's your fuel burn?

I keed, I keed! The 210 is a damn nice airplane.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Parents liked Cirrus, or the shift to Piper? You must have meant Cirrus, right? With the chute, and the wings that don't fall off?

Yep, the Circus

 

[robin ardoin]

“That's nice and all, but what's your fuel burn? ”

Now, why do have to go and bring that up??.

That was the previous owner and running just over 19gph. I’ve been running it at 18gph, 175-178 TAS 7-9K, 125 ROP. I tested LOP at 7500’ last flight and it made 165+kt, 13.8gph, 40deg LOP. Load it to max gross and I ain’t getting those numbers I bet.

 

[Anthem]

“That's nice and all, but what's your fuel burn? ”

Now, why do have to go and bring that up??.

That was the previous owner and running just over 19gph. I’ve been running it at 18gph, 175-178 TAS 7-9K, 125 ROP. I tested LOP at 7500’ last flight and it made 165+kt, 13.8gph, 40deg LOP. Load it to max gross and I ain’t getting those numbers I bet.

It really likes higher. I know oxygen becomes an issue but the turbo 210 really likes to be between 15-20k.

 

[robin ardoin]

It really likes higher. I know oxygen becomes an issue but the turbo 210 really likes to be between 15-20k.

Yep, I just have not had a trip yet warranting higher than 9K or so. I'll have some 600-800 mi trips in the late spring and summer where I hope to get her up there. In the meantime I need to get it up to 15K or so to check the TC/WG function.

 

[FastEddieB]

Not to say other aircraft might not be equally efficient, but I recall being very impressed when I moved from my Tiger to an SR22.

A typical flight was from S FL to N GA, about 580nm. My recall may be a little off, but the Tiger did the trip in about 5 hours at roughly 132 kts and 10 gph. With 50 gal fuel, a fuel stop was virtually always required.

The same flight in the Cirrus was about 3 1/2 hours at roughly 172 kts and 13.5 gph. Burning about 47 gals instead of 50. Quite impressed by arriving an hour and a half sooner while burning less fuel!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not to say other aircraft might not be equally efficient, but I recall being very impressed when I moved from my Tiger to an SR22.

A typical flight was from S FL to N GA, about 580nm. My recall may be a little off, but the Tiger did the trip in about 5 hours at roughly 132 kts and 10 gph. With 50 gal fuel, a fuel stop was virtually always required.

The same flight in the Cirrus was about 3 1/2 hours at roughly 172 kts and 13.5 gph. Burning about 47 gals instead of 50. Quite impressed by arriving an hour and a half sooner while burning less fuel!

Efficient airplanes are awesome. I can do 175 KTAS on 12gph at 9-10,000 in the Mooney, with an extra 3 gallons burned for startup, taxi, takeoff and climb. So, that trip would probably be about 43 gallons and yes, just shy of 3.5 hours. If going places is your mission, this class of birds is in a sweet spot where the price/performance is fantastic.

 

[Rockymountain]

first with a glass panel (Avidyne, a year before the G1000 came out)

I think Piper was first to put glass in a light GA aircraft. The 2001 Meridian was certified with the Meggitt glass panel. Later updated with Avidyne then Garmin. Back then Cirrus was using the Sandel 6-pack

 

[asicer]

A typical flight was from S FL to N GA, about 580nm. My recall may be a little off, but the Tiger did the trip in about 5 hours at roughly 132 kts and 10 gph. With 50 gal fuel, a fuel stop was virtually always required.

The same flight in the Cirrus was about 3 1/2 hours at roughly 172 kts and 13.5 gph. Burning about 47 gals instead of 50. Quite impressed by arriving an hour and a half sooner while burning less fuel!

5 hours in the Tiger included the fuel stop? 580nm at 132kts should be 4.39 hours burning 43.9 gallons at 10gph.

 

[3393RP]

5 hours in the Tiger included the fuel stop? 580nm at 132kts should be 4.39 hours burning 43.9 gallons at 10gph.

Maybe his refueling stops include a few minutes checking the weather or whatever. "About" 5 hours doesn't mean exactly, nor does "roughly" mean the same.

 

[FastEddieB]

Maybe his refueling stops include a few minutes checking the weather or whatever. "About" 5 hours doesn't mean exactly, nor does "roughly" mean the same.

Thanks. Yes, it was an approximation. My flights were before “GPS direct” everything, so vectors out of Miami and doglegs in Victor airways and time to climb all factored into “about” 5 hours flight time from wheels up to landing. Not to mention headwinds always being more of a factor than tailwinds.

My point still remains: as efficient as the Tiger was, the Cirrus was even more so for this typical flight.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think Piper was first to put glass in a light GA aircraft. The 2001 Meridian was certified with the Meggitt glass panel. Later updated with Avidyne then Garmin. Back then Cirrus was using the Sandel 6-pack

Aha, I remember them. I guess I wasn't paying attention to the Meridian because I wasn't particularly interested in things I'd never be able to afford.

I did find one for sale that still has that system, and it's... Well, it's barely glass!



Maybe Cirrus was just the first piston with glass? You're right that they were still a 6-pack with Sandel HSI and an Avidyne MFD in 2001, but they had the full Avidyne system by 2003. The G1000 exploded onto the market in 2004 with Diamond, Cessna, Mooney, Columbia, and others all adopting it immediately.

 

[asicer]

Maybe his refueling stops include a few minutes checking the weather or whatever. "About" 5 hours doesn't mean exactly, nor does "roughly" mean the same.

OK, so he burned 6 gallons checking the weather?

 

[asicer]

Thanks. Yes, it was an approximation. My flights were before “GPS direct” everything, so vectors out of Miami and doglegs in Victor airways and time to climb all factored into “about” 5 hours flight time from wheels up to landing. Not to mention headwinds always being more of a factor than tailwinds.

My point still remains: as efficient as the Tiger was, the Cirrus was even more so for this typical flight.

OK, I guess that makes sense for this particular flight. 132kts at 10gph is 13.2mpg while 172kts at 13.5gph is 12.7mpg, so a simpler fuel stop and calmer winds would have favored the Tiger.

 

[eman1200]

 

[mandm]

Efficient airplanes are awesome. I can do 175 KTAS on 12gph at 9-10,000 in the Mooney, with an extra 3 gallons burned for startup, taxi, takeoff and climb. So, that trip would probably be about 43 gallons and yes, just shy of 3.5 hours. If going places is your mission, this class of birds is in a sweet spot where the price/performance is fantastic.

Which Mooney is this?

 

[mandm]

A 20-25 year old Cirrus runs about 225-250k+ for which you’re getting a newer airframe and great equipment. Prices have been going up a little since Covid. Imagine if we had 40-60 year old Cirrus, what would those be priced at? I’m guessing in another 10 years, maybe the G1 will be closer to 100k. If Cirrus was around longer and used market offered <100k then that would be a great entry point for first aircraft. But you cannot find 1920s / 1950s / 1970s Cirrus so we are stuck with Beechcraft, Mooney and Pipers.

I’m at 130kts / 150mph with my Arrow, it’s slow, but it’s faster and more fuel efficient than a Cessna. I definitely want to consider a 200mph+ airplane next so these Cirrus and other airplanes that quote 180kts+ are definitely attractive. I’ll play with my Arrow longer with the new upgrades and then I’ll keep my eyes open for something faster. Probably would be better if I could test fly one on a trip so we can decide if it’s worth changing airplanes.

 

[eman1200]

...Probably would be better if I could test fly one on a trip so we can decide if it’s worth changing airplanes.

the fly-ins are great times to jump in different planes, lots of people willing to give test drives. of course almost everyone, and I mean ALMOST everyone, doesn't have a cirrus at the fly-ins, so you're probably out of luck there.

 

[eman1200]

also, and again, NOT trying to bash cirrus, but the amount of used cirrii compared to other makes that have been around significantly longer is a red flag for me. I wonder if someone knows the ratio of total planes ever built to total used planes available for each manufacturer. seems like a high percentage for cirrus.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

also, and again, NOT trying to bash cirrus, but the amount of used cirrii compared to other makes that have been around significantly longer is a red flag for me. I wonder if someone knows the ratio of total planes ever built to total used planes available for each manufacturer. seems like a high percentage for cirrus.


View attachment 136923

My observation of a lot of the new-Cirrus-buying cohort is that they change airplanes a LOT. And I'm convinced I must be doing something wrong because I've had the same airplane for 12 years. So, it doesn't really surprise me to see that there are lots of Cirri for sale.

Again, they'll treat it almost like a lease. Buy the plane, expecting to sell it in 3 or so years when Cirrus increments the number after the G.

 

[AA5Bman]

Is this like the poor person’s aviation forum? I’m surprised there are not that many Cirrus owners chiming in here. Must just be all us Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Bo peasantry hanging around these parts.

Someday I’d like to buy a turbo FIKI SR22, but good lord that is an eye-watering combination, price-wise.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Which Mooney is this?

M20R Ovation. Long body, IO-550-G at 280hp.

Is this like the poor person’s aviation forum? I’m surprised there are not that many Cirrus owners chiming in here. Must just be all us Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Bo peasantry hanging around these parts.

Cirrus pilots hang out at COPA forums so they don't have to talk to others. Bo owners usually hang out at BeechTalk, but lots also hang out in other places given that the "Bonanza or death" cohort has largely gone to Cirrus instead.

So yeah, we're the poors.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

I trained in a steam gauge 172. After getting my PPL, I transitioned to a C172 with a G1000 cockpit, and got my instrument rating. I was happy, and felt accomplished. I wanted to take my wife and kids on trips around the region. Unfortunately, the flight school where I trained had a policy of no overnight rentals. The owner claimed their insurance policy required that their aircraft are back on the field by 5pm every day. This left me with a void. A newly earned skill, but no way to apply it.

So I joined a local flying club. They had a legacy fleet of Skyhawks and Archers at really cheap prices. I paid my $2000 initiation fee and scheduled a checkout flight in one of their Archers with the club's president/CFI. The aircraft was old, seats worn, with paint peeling off and foggy windows to boot. There was a puddle of water on the floor by the pilot's feet. The president said "don't worry about that, all airplanes leak". No. No they don't.

I couldn't imagine bringing my wife or kids into this machine. It felt like a ticking timebomb, and inspired anything but confidence. I could just hear my wife asking "are we going to die in this?".

Then I noticed a fleet of new Cirrus aircraft on the field. It was a Cirrus flight school. The planes were nice, modern, with prices to match. I've decided to take a intro flight, after my frustrating experience in GA so far.

After a single flight in the SR-20 I was hooked. The plane felt complete, and well put together. You didn't have ten different instruments spread across four decades, scattered around the panel. You had two giant screens, and a FMS panel with full keyboard, all within the reach of your right hand. It was cohesive, seamless, modern.

Cirrus transition training was combined with their Cirrus Approach - an online learning portal. The videos were top-notch, with high production value, humorous script, and well acted by Mr. Bottinni. Everything about the brand embodied new thinking.

The Cirrus Flight School had no restrictions on overnight rentals. Once I completed my transition training, I took my family out to Nantucket for a weekend. It's a trip I'll never forget.

Fast forward a few years, I put a deposit on a factory new S22T. Prior to that, I had test flown the newly redesigned 182T, complete with new seats and G1000 NXi. Nice as the 182T was, it still flew like a 1950s airplane. And with a fully optioned price of nearly $900k, it just didn't make sense.

I can only surmise that Cirrus' success comes from its modern approach to aviation. Their airplanes don't look like they come from history books. They're sleek, fast, with seamless avionics and luxurious interior. It's a plane you're proud to show to your friends. Cessna and Piper have given up on GA long time ago, and Cirrus saw an opportunity and took it.

 

[mandm]

Borrowing an airplane from a club is challenging, each has its own rules and they don’t like you taking the airplane far or long. Each club will maintain their aircraft differently, you have to find your comfort levels. I think if I left my airplane out in a few rain storms that I might also have some water inside, especially if I forget to close the side window haha. But ya, these things are old, you either join a club with older aircraft or newer ones. Newer ones are expensive!! But safety wise I think they are generally very safe. You are now paying for looks and comfort.

 

[szwinger]

Is this like the poor person’s aviation forum? I’m surprised there are not that many Cirrus owners chiming in here. Must just be all us Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Bo peasantry hanging around these parts.

Someday I’d like to buy a turbo FIKI SR22, but good lord that is an eye-watering combination, price-wise.

I find it's generally counter productive to chime in. It seems to me most threads mentioning a Cirrus don't really want any input from actual Cirrus owners. I'll chime in when I think there's an actual honest question about Cirrus (rare) that I know the answer to (even rarer).

My opinion (without data) is that many of the Cirrus pilots were previous Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Bo pilots. There are also many that began in a Cirrus and have no other brand experience.

If you think a brand new FIKI Turbo Cirrus is expensive try getting a FIKI Turbo any other brand piston aircraft and check the price and delivery date.

 

[TCABM]

Which Mooney is this?

One you can’t afford.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

If you think a brand new FIKI Turbo Cirrus is expensive try getting a FIKI Turbo any other brand piston aircraft and check the price and delivery date.

You can option a new Cessna Stationair Turbo with A/C and Anti-Ice:

2025 Cessna T206HD Stationair	$990,000​
SVT	$11,020​
XM	$11,740​
Stabilizer Boots	$1,200​
Thermacool Air-Conditioning	$51,990​
Total Options	$75,950​
Total List	$1,065,950​
CAV Systems Anti-Ice	$58,500​
Total Purchase Price	$1,124,450​

Now you're writing a check for the same price as a new Cirrus S22T. Still no chute, and a 70-yr old airframe that cruises 30 knots slower and chugs more fuel.

 

[Bell206]

Now you're writing a check for the same price as a new Cirrus S22T. Still no chute, and a 70-yr old airframe that cruises 30 knots slower and chugs more fuel.

Except in most cases a person will write that 206 check based more on what a Cirrus cannot perform than what is can. Had an old customer follow that exact path when he moved from a Cirrus to a 206 a number of years ago.

 

[robin ardoin]

Except in most cases a person will write that 206 check based more on what a Cirrus cannot perform than what is can. Had an old customer follow that exact path when he moved from a Cirrus to a 206 a number of years ago.

Yup...different horses for different courses. I would certainly would have considered a SR22 for my traveling machine. However, a 206 or a 210 was much better suited for my goal. If I had to write a check for a 'new' T210 (ie- 2024 model), the check would well exceed 1mm. I'm glad that I found a well preserved antique suitable for my needs. Too bad the Martin Hollman Stallion II didn't catch and proceed to a certified craft.

 

[szwinger]

You can option a new Cessna Stationair Turbo with A/C and Anti-Ice:

2025 Cessna T206HD Stationair	$990,000​
SVT	$11,020​
XM	$11,740​
Stabilizer Boots	$1,200​
Thermacool Air-Conditioning	$51,990​
Total Options	$75,950​
Total List	$1,065,950​
CAV Systems Anti-Ice	$58,500​
Total Purchase Price	$1,124,450​

Now you're writing a check for the same price as a new Cirrus S22T. Still no chute, and a 70-yr old airframe that cruises 30 knots slower and chugs more fuel.

My previous SR22 had Turbo (TN) and anti Ice. The later models were FIKI. Like TN vs TSIO I see them used interchangeably, but there are important differences. If you need FIKI anti ice isn't a legal substitute.

But your example illustrates perfectly the cost of the Cirrus is not out of line with other manufacturers if optioned alike.

Edit: You can also add CAVU anti-Ice to the 182 (T182T) but I don't think it's a factory option.

 

[AA5Bman]

@szwinger oh I’m not so singling out Cirrus price-wise, and I’m not a Cirrus hater. I think they’re cool airplanes and I’d almost like to have a mission that would fit one, just so I could talk myself into owning one, but I spend too much time off airport. My wife would love one but, FWIW, that has nothing to do with the parachute.

I do have a strong suspicion that I will own one someday - this addiction is unrelenting - and I am looking forward to it! Gotta save my pennies though - I’m mostly thinking used model FIKI SR22T’s gotta be… what - $600k+? Just need bitcoin to hit $1M and I’m there!

 

[RockyMtnFlyer]

... Unfortunately, the flight school where I trained had a policy of no overnight rentals. The owner claimed their insurance policy required that their aircraft are back on the field by 5pm every day.....[/MEDIA]

How did the PPL students complete the night requirement?

 

[Rockymountain]

Had no idea an optioned Cessna piston was now over a mil. Guess that is the world we live in today.

 

[szwinger]

@szwinger oh I’m not so singling out Cirrus price-wise, and I’m not a Cirrus hater. I think they’re cool airplanes and I’d almost like to have a mission that would fit one, just so I could talk myself into owning one, but I spend too much time off airport. My wife would love one but, FWIW, that has nothing to do with the parachute.

I do have a strong suspicion that I will own one someday - this addiction is unrelenting - and I am looking forward to it! Gotta save my pennies though - I’m mostly thinking used model FIKI SR22T’s gotta be… what - $600k+? Just need bitcoin to hit $1M and I’m there!

I'm sorry if I left that impression. I didn't mean to personalize my answer. I thought you raised interesting questions and I thought I'd chime in because I had an opinion.

I'm not the best at nuance in my written communication. I think the FIKI planes are significantly less than $600K. I think the G3 Garmin Perspective (G1000) planes were available with FIKI. The Avidyne G3 (which is what I had) were anti-ice only. Off the top of my head the FIKI birds had dual pumps and a heated stall vane and some other changes.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

How did the PPL students complete the night requirement?

They made an exception if one of their CFIs was on board. The man who ran that school was anything but a good business person. He could have had a whole segment that rents to pilots who complete their training. Go figure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Borrowing an airplane from a club is challenging, each has its own rules and they don’t like you taking the airplane far or long. Each club will maintain their aircraft differently, you have to find your comfort levels.

Apply your second statement to your first... All clubs are different.

FWIW, I took a club plane on a 19-day, 5800nm adventure once. And that club had excellent, well-equipped aircraft.

If you think a brand new FIKI Turbo Cirrus is expensive try getting a FIKI Turbo any other brand piston aircraft and check the price and delivery date.

Cessna sells FIKI planes, as does Mooney when they're building planes.

How did the PPL students complete the night requirement?

I'm calling BS on that owner - I've heard flight schools blame a lot of dumb policies on "insurance" but if you ask to see the policy, they either hem and haw and won't show you, or you find that there is no such restriction. It's just an owner or chief CFI who has no faith in their own instructors to teach their customers properly for the situations they'll be in.