[NA]Siri etc, eavesdropping

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Dave Taylor
I thought we already knew and accepted that our devices listened in and used our discussions to send us ads and cause other unknown mayhem?

I know for certain that my device suddenly fed me ads for products I would never in a million years type into my phone or other device... but ones that I had been verbally discussing with family & friends.

 
That settlement is rather lame and only lets the legal team earn their part. But that’s just my opinion.

There is/was another company (can’t find the name) who recently boasted their app was basically listening to everything. (Sarcasm) You clearly read their disclosure when you clicked yes (/Sarcasm). Apple and google started requiring users to opt in to different access (microphones, etc) to help quell that crap.
 
That settlement is rather lame and only lets the legal team earn their part.
So it's pretty much like every other class action lawsuit ever.
Apple and google started requiring users to opt in to different access (microphones, etc) to help quell that crap.
Yeah, but then Facebook came out with a separate Messenger app so that they could convince you that they really did need access to your microphone. And your calendar. And your contacts. And your location. And...

And even after all of that, Facebook has, on several occasions, managed to feed us ads based on things that were very specific to discussions we'd had minutes or hours beforehand, that we hadn't searched. There's enough data sharing going on that you don't really know who has access to it any more.
 
So it's pretty much like every other class action lawsuit ever.

Indeed

Yeah, but then Facebook came out with a separate Messenger app so that they could convince you that they really did need access to your microphone. And your calendar. And your contacts. And your location. And...

What’s Facebook? Just say no :)

My local tv news has a news app. They keep pushing it and keep reminding folks to turn on location and other services. The various 3rd party services used in the app get that data too, giving them some $ along the way. That’s just one way these types of companies get your info.
 
I thought we already knew and accepted that our devices listened in and used our discussions to send us ads and cause other unknown mayhem?

I know for certain that my device suddenly fed me ads for products I would never in a million years type into my phone or other device... but ones that I had been verbally discussing with family & friends.

I think the lawsuit was more over the privacy issues in processing and those failures. IT companies are horrible at handling personally identifying information (pii). They have standards, but they don't monitor those standards well enough to ensure they're being followed, which is exactly what Apple's failure here was. We're see it now because they're big, but I would bet at least 80% of companies collecting information do not handle it right. Probably well in excess of 80%, I'm just being conservative.

Only 1200 more hours before I could fly the coup, but it will take me until I'm 65 to get there...
 
In a podcast called “Skeptoid”, Brian Dunning discussed this very topic not too long ago.


Tldr: While it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s extremely unlikely they’re “listening in” all the time. But they have far more efficient ways of determining your interest and purchasing patterns. He spent days talking about “Alpaca undercoat brushes” and never saw ads for anything remotely related. Karen and I did the same with “rutabagas” and still no ads for same.
 
In a podcast called “Skeptoid”, Brian Dunning discussed this very topic not too long ago.


Tldr: While it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s extremely unlikely they’re “listening in” all the time. But they have far more efficient ways of determining your interest and purchasing patterns. He spent days talking about “Alpaca undercoat brushes” and never saw ads for anything remotely related. Karen and I did the same with “rutabagas” and still no ads for same.
Exactly this. It’s so much easier to get sufficiently targeted advertising via basic social graphing than trying to do voice to speech and NLP on continuous audio. Those techniques can produce the same exact results but the idea of “they’re always listening” plays into the fears of people much more and gets into the zeitgeist.

Facebook et al. did a lot of slimy stuff like using the audio engine to play silence to keep their app active in the background, but that wasn’t to record audio, it was to get location data and other information (e.g. visible wifi networks which can be used for geolocation as well) they wanted for their slimy purposes.
 
In a podcast called “Skeptoid”, Brian Dunning discussed this very topic not too long ago.


Tldr: While it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s extremely unlikely they’re “listening in” all the time. But they have far more efficient ways of determining your interest and purchasing patterns. He spent days talking about “Alpaca undercoat brushes” and never saw ads for anything remotely related. Karen and I did the same with “rutabagas” and still no ads for same.
Alpaca Undercoat Brushes, Inc., and Rutabagas R Us don’t pay for the info.
 
Tldr: While it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s extremely unlikely they’re “listening in” all the time. But they have far more efficient ways of determining your interest and purchasing patterns. He spent days talking about “Alpaca undercoat brushes” and never saw ads for anything remotely related. Karen and I did the same with “rutabagas” and still no ads for same.
I just Googled "rutabagas" and didn't even get any ads. That doesn't prove that they're not listening to you, only that there aren't any companies buying ads to sell you rutabagas. Same with "alpaca undercoat brushes" - There's a few places that sell various products for grooming but not a single one called an "Alpaca undercoat brush" (most of the results did not include the word undercoat at all).

Now, try to do the same thing with a product that exists and would be advertised, but that you have not searched and would not normally be indicated as something you're interested in.
Exactly this. It’s so much easier to get sufficiently targeted advertising via basic social graphing than trying to do voice to speech and NLP on continuous audio.
So, I used to buy into this, but I'm not so sure any more.

For example, the first time Facebook got creepy, I was at an event at the county fairgrounds. There was a company there that was selling, for lack of a better description, prosumer sawmill equipment. They were demonstrating said equipment, and I stood there and watched for a while. Later that day, I see ads for the company that makes said equipment. Now, that's easy enough to do by looking at my location and seeing that other people searched for that company from that location in numbers significant enough to trigger that ad being fed to others in the same location. No audio necessary.

But then, there was the time where we were at my in-laws' and my older son was having fun on their play set and we started talking about buying a play set on the way home, and before we even got home, my wife was looking at Facebook and got ads for play sets. Now, Facebook knows that we're married and have kids of the right age for play sets, but the timing was highly suspect. We hadn't gotten any other ads for play sets before that, our in-laws' set was old enough that it came with the house and so they hadn't searched for nor purchased one. Like I said, we fit the demographic, but the timing was VERY suspicious.

Then, my wife was talking about a very specific medical issue she had just started experiencing, and we got ads for doctors that specialized in that very specific issue. Again, she hadn't searched for anything about it. This time, I have no other explanation than "they were listening". And we've had 4-5 instances like that, where despite all of my technical knowledge and paying attention to this sort of thing, I have no other explanation. :dunno:

I know there's an awful lot of CPU and network overhead involved, but it doesn't have to be continuous audio. All of the various devices are constantly listening for their keywords (Hey Siri, Alexa, Hey Google), all of them have the capability of changing to other keywords so we know they can listen for several. They could also be listening for a handful of additional keywords like "buy" or "have you heard" that could indicate potential interest in a purchase and trigger maybe a 10-second clip to be sent to a server that would determine if there was potentially a targeted ad that could be sent back to you.
 
In a podcast called “Skeptoid”, Brian Dunning discussed this very topic not too long ago.


Tldr: While it’s impossible to prove a negative, it’s extremely unlikely they’re “listening in” all the time. But they have far more efficient ways of determining your interest and purchasing patterns. He spent days talking about “Alpaca undercoat brushes” and never saw ads for anything remotely related. Karen and I did the same with “rutabagas” and still no ads for same.

I tried an experiment like this some years back except instead of a product I discussed an upcoming trip to Japan, figuring tourism ads would be a thing. I also got nothin'. I expect the real reason people see related ads is because of falling into demographics. You'd be amazed the incredibly narrow and targeted demographics data they use to advertise these days, it's not at all surprising they are spot on with it a lot of the time even if you didn't search for the specific thing.

Thing is, ads aren't what I'm concerned about privacy wise. If all your data ever gets used for is to send relevant advertising your way so what? I'd be more concerned about employers or worse the government starting to use this data... that could turn really dystopian really quickly.

IMO you can't put the cork back in the bottle on this stuff. The technology exists and it's going to be used regardless of how we feel about it. The only solution I see is strict laws limiting how it can be used and who can use it.
 
I just Googled "rutabagas" and didn't even get any ads. That doesn't prove that they're not listening to you, only that there aren't any companies buying ads to sell you rutabagas. Same with "alpaca undercoat brushes" - There's a few places that sell various products for grooming but not a single one called an "Alpaca undercoat brush" (most of the results did not include the word undercoat at all).

Now, try to do the same thing with a product that exists and would be advertised, but that you have not searched and would not normally be indicated as something you're interested in.

So, I used to buy into this, but I'm not so sure any more.

For example, the first time Facebook got creepy, I was at an event at the county fairgrounds. There was a company there that was selling, for lack of a better description, prosumer sawmill equipment. They were demonstrating said equipment, and I stood there and watched for a while. Later that day, I see ads for the company that makes said equipment. Now, that's easy enough to do by looking at my location and seeing that other people searched for that company from that location in numbers significant enough to trigger that ad being fed to others in the same location. No audio necessary.

But then, there was the time where we were at my in-laws' and my older son was having fun on their play set and we started talking about buying a play set on the way home, and before we even got home, my wife was looking at Facebook and got ads for play sets. Now, Facebook knows that we're married and have kids of the right age for play sets, but the timing was highly suspect. We hadn't gotten any other ads for play sets before that, our in-laws' set was old enough that it came with the house and so they hadn't searched for nor purchased one. Like I said, we fit the demographic, but the timing was VERY suspicious.

Then, my wife was talking about a very specific medical issue she had just started experiencing, and we got ads for doctors that specialized in that very specific issue. Again, she hadn't searched for anything about it. This time, I have no other explanation than "they were listening". And we've had 4-5 instances like that, where despite all of my technical knowledge and paying attention to this sort of thing, I have no other explanation. :dunno:

I know there's an awful lot of CPU and network overhead involved, but it doesn't have to be continuous audio. All of the various devices are constantly listening for their keywords (Hey Siri, Alexa, Hey Google), all of them have the capability of changing to other keywords so we know they can listen for several. They could also be listening for a handful of additional keywords like "buy" or "have you heard" that could indicate potential interest in a purchase and trigger maybe a 10-second clip to be sent to a server that would determine if there was potentially a targeted ad that could be sent back to you.
All your examples are equally explainable with basic social links. Your in-laws bought a play set, Facebook knows about (via Facebook pixels), knows you’re friends with your in-laws etc.

Furthermore all these examples likely have the Baader-Meinhof phenomena associated with them. To actually have evidence that anything changed after your conversation, you would need to log every ad that was shown to you for say a week or two prior and show that there is a statistically significantly larger amount of ads about the topic (play sets in this example) after your conversation. Prior to your conversation you may well have been being served ads for play sets that you just didn’t even register because the topic wasn’t in your conscious thoughts. Then you have a conversation about it and suddenly you notice the ads consciously.
 
Sometimes, the metadata on what a person purchases and looks at can be used to direct marketing:
 
All your examples are equally explainable with basic social links. Your in-laws bought a play set, Facebook knows about (via Facebook pixels), knows you’re friends with your in-laws etc.
But my in-laws did NOT buy a play set. They bought a house that already had a play set in the back yard, 12 years before this occurred.
 
I had a guy ask me about if I could fly him and some of his buddies to the Bahamas. By the time I got home I had an email ad advertising a service to help with flying into the Bahamas and saw several ads over the next week about it.

Shortly after that I was in my IAs office and saw he had an echo. I asked him if he had been shopping for dildos lately and by the time I left he had an ad for one pop up on his computer.

They are absolutely listening to everything.
 
One evening, a few of us were hanging out at a neighbor’s yard. He wears a black western hat. Another neighbor walked up, wearing the same hat. Neighbor 1 says “hey, no black cowboy hats allowed around here!”

The next day, two ads for black western hats popped up in my Facebook feed. It’s not like the software associated me with people who recently bought such items, because they’d both had their hats for a long time and both confirmed they hadn’t even looked at ads for them.

Someone’s lookin’ at ya. They’re always looking at ya.
 
I was talking songs we remembered with my wife. We have a google home we use for lights. The next time she told it to play music, it played all the songs we were talking about. Fortunately, I don’t give a crap if they know my taste in music.
 
I just Googled "rutabagas" and didn't even get any ads. That doesn't prove that they're not listening to you, only that there aren't any companies buying ads to sell you rutabagas. Same with "alpaca undercoat brushes" - There's a few places that sell various products for grooming but not a single one called an "Alpaca undercoat brush" (most of the results did not include the word undercoat at all).

Now, try to do the same thing with a product that exists and would be advertised, but that you have not searched and would not normally be indicated as something you're interested in.

So, I used to buy into this, but I'm not so sure any more.

For example, the first time Facebook got creepy, I was at an event at the county fairgrounds. There was a company there that was selling, for lack of a better description, prosumer sawmill equipment. They were demonstrating said equipment, and I stood there and watched for a while. Later that day, I see ads for the company that makes said equipment. Now, that's easy enough to do by looking at my location and seeing that other people searched for that company from that location in numbers significant enough to trigger that ad being fed to others in the same location. No audio necessary.

But then, there was the time where we were at my in-laws' and my older son was having fun on their play set and we started talking about buying a play set on the way home, and before we even got home, my wife was looking at Facebook and got ads for play sets. Now, Facebook knows that we're married and have kids of the right age for play sets, but the timing was highly suspect. We hadn't gotten any other ads for play sets before that, our in-laws' set was old enough that it came with the house and so they hadn't searched for nor purchased one. Like I said, we fit the demographic, but the timing was VERY suspicious.

Then, my wife was talking about a very specific medical issue she had just started experiencing, and we got ads for doctors that specialized in that very specific issue. Again, she hadn't searched for anything about it. This time, I have no other explanation than "they were listening". And we've had 4-5 instances like that, where despite all of my technical knowledge and paying attention to this sort of thing, I have no other explanation. :dunno:

I know there's an awful lot of CPU and network overhead involved, but it doesn't have to be continuous audio. All of the various devices are constantly listening for their keywords (Hey Siri, Alexa, Hey Google), all of them have the capability of changing to other keywords so we know they can listen for several. They could also be listening for a handful of additional keywords like "buy" or "have you heard" that could indicate potential interest in a purchase and trigger maybe a 10-second clip to be sent to a server that would determine if there was potentially a targeted ad that could be sent back to you.

Similar situation here - a few years ago, sitting around at my parents' house one Sunday afternoon, we were poking fun at my (then 11 y/o) son about not having a job. That led into me saying "I wish I could find one of those old Snapper mowers for him to learn on". We started talking about those specific types of mowers (what we call the 'Forrest Gump mower') for a few minutes, and I pulled out my phone to see if there were any for sale and, no joke, the FIRST thing that popped up when I opened Facebook marketplace was "You may be interested in..." an old-school Snapper mower that was for sale nearby. I had not searched for anything lawnmower related and honestly hadn't even used Facebook Marketplace for anything at all up until that point.

During onboarding with my current company, and during our annual recurrent 'security' training, we are told to not take calls in a room with any 'smart' devices like Amazon Echo, Google whatever, etc. - and turning them off during calls is not enough, they should be unplugged completely or moved to another room.

Maybe it's just my old(er) age kicking in, but I don't trust any company (and fewer and fewer people every day).
 
Responding to the post above...

The very worst offender is Nissan. The Japanese car manufacturer admits in their privacy policy to collecting a wide range of information, including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data — but doesn’t specify how.

Accelerometers. If the van's a-rockin...don't come knockin!
:)
 
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It's why I don't have Siri, or GPS, or Find my Phone, or Fakebook or any other app running that wants access to my location, microphone or camera. It's also why no Echo, or Nest or any other app accessed item is in the house. Not even a smart tv. Saw a demo where a hacker got into a IT security expert's home system via the MAC address of a discarded smart bulb. Took under 5 minutes and he had control of everything on that network. I'm not paranoid, but having had my data exposed by both corporate and government incompetence multiple times in the last 10 years, I'll do what I can to minimize access to my stuff.
 
It's why I don't have Siri, or GPS, or Find my Phone, or Fakebook or any other app running that wants access to my location, microphone or camera. It's also why no Echo, or Nest or any other app accessed item is in the house. Not even a smart tv. Saw a demo where a hacker got into a IT security expert's home system via the MAC address of a discarded smart bulb. Took under 5 minutes and he had control of everything on that network. I'm not paranoid, but having had my data exposed by both corporate and government incompetence multiple times in the last 10 years, I'll do what I can to minimize access to my stuff.
Internet of Things devices are also a VERY easy cyberattack surface, because most people don't have any idea how to secure a network. And, of course, the devices themselves are looking at functionality, not security, and their software is rarely ever updated.

People buy fancy firewalls for their computers, not realizing that if someone is going to attack you, they're going to get into your network via things like printers, smart home devices, and the like. Once they're inside your network it's a lot easier to defeat or bypass whatever firewalls you may have.
 
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