Jeju Air, South Korea

Listening to this video several times, it sure sounds like the engines are spooled up.
I’m going to go out on a limb, but listening to the after-crash audio, I swear I hear a turbine spooling down several seconds after the impact (before the sirens begin). Could be the APU or one of the engine cores.
 
I’m going to go out on a limb, but listening to the after-crash audio, I swear I hear a turbine spooling down several seconds after the impact (before the sirens begin). Could be the APU or one of the engine cores.
What was the distance of the camera from the crash scene? One second of delay for every ~900 feet of separation.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I always thought thrust reversers were locked out until the weight- on- wheels sensors told the plane it was on the ground?
I recall reading somewere that they are tied to the radio altimeter and will operate if it reads less than 10 ft?
 
Juan Brown touched on something. If you watch (listen to) ATC recordings (there are hundreds online), typically after a bird strike or a lost engine, pilots don't land immediately. The checklists typically take time -- as much as 15 mins before they are prepared to return. While it is possible there was a "fan blade out" situation causing massive damage requiring an immediate landing, with experienced crews, that doesn't typically happen. It takes time to assess the damage and make sure the backup systems (if necessary) are configured to give the pilots the functionality to land safely. Perhaps the Captain panicked and decided to get it on the ground prematurely - when he should have been running the checklists instead. Sample bird strike ATC:

 
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What was the distance of the camera from the crash scene? One second of delay for every ~900 feet of separation.

Ron Wanttaja
Not sure how that matters in this case. It was sequential - you hear the sounds of impact and break up, fairly commensurate with the visual, then the spooling down I mentioned.
 
I think the pilots tried to use the TR's at touchdown after listening to the audio.
 
190 KIAS is consistent with a flaps-up final approach speed.

Both the flaps and gear have alternate methods of extension.

Ground contact could possibly prevent the deployment of the thrust reverser(s) but the thrust reverse lever(s) are blocked from applying thrust (above idle) until they are fully deployed by an interlock mechanism.

Why wasn't it dumped, or burned off?
Like most narrowbody transports, the 737 does not have a fuel jettison system.

Wonder if the right t handle got pulled at some point.
The handles are latched unless a fire is detected for that engine (or the APU). The pull the fire switch, without an active fire detection, requires activating an override latch which is difficult to activate and pull with a single hand.

The procedure for pulling a fire switch requires confirmation from both pilots. The PM will hold the switch handle that he proposes pulling and wait for the PF to confirm that it is the correct one and that he agrees it should be pulled.
 


The handles are latched unless a fire is detected for that engine (or the APU). The pull the fire switch, without an active fire detection, requires activating an override latch which is difficult to activate and pull with a single hand.

The procedure for pulling a fire switch requires confirmation from both pilots. The PM will hold the switch handle that he proposes pulling and wait for the PF to confirm that it is the correct one and that he agrees it should be pulled.
Thanks for the insight on procedure. The one video I’ve seem makes it appear the right engine sucked a bird, which is why I’m wondering if the fire handle got pulled.
 
Well, if the FO had 1,650 hours as I read, been with the company nearly a year (again what I read), he had been there since February 2023, and was hired at the minimum number of hours of 1,500 (not anything I read), that would be just 150 hours accumulated in that time span.
 
Well, if the FO had 1,650 hours as I read, been with the company nearly a year (again what I read), he had been there since February 2023, and was hired at the minimum number of hours of 1,500 (not anything I read), that would be just 150 hours accumulated in that time span.

What makes you think the Koreans require a 1500hr ATP in the right seat?
 
Well, if the FO had 1,650 hours as I read, been with the company nearly a year (again what I read), he had been there since February 2023, and was hired at the minimum number of hours of 1,500 (not anything I read), that would be just 150 hours accumulated in that time span.
Seems I read minimum hours was 300, not 1,500.
 
Well, if the FO had 1,650 hours as I read, been with the company nearly a year (again what I read), he had been there since February 2023, and was hired at the minimum number of hours of 1,500 (not anything I read), that would be just 150 hours accumulated in that time span.

How do we know he was hired with 1500 hrs?
 
Seems I read minimum hours was 300, not 1,500.
Here it is:

What are the hiring requirements for Jeju Air careers?​

General Requirements:

  • Valid CPL, IFR, MEL License with Boeing 737-800 type rating
  • ICAO English level 4 or above
  • Hold a current and valid Class I Medical Certificate
  • Wireless Communication License
  • 300 hours PIC
 
How do you get that type rating?

Ask the Korean CAA? Their country, their carrier, their rules.

Usually, the type rating would include some type of check ride. It’s also not unusual for there to be an ab initio program that takes an aspiring pilot and sends them from zero to CMEL w/Instrument then off to the type rating run by the airline.
 
I’m going to go out on a limb, but listening to the after-crash audio, I swear I hear a turbine spooling down several seconds after the impact (before the sirens begin). Could be the APU or one of the engine cores.
APU maybe, but I'm not thinking anything was going to be rotating on the engines after they hit that berm.
LOL. Thanks for pointing that out...
:rofl: I'm just glad I'm not crazy and didn't miss shrapnel damage on this tail! :D
 
Well, if the FO had 1,650 hours as I read, been with the company nearly a year (again what I read), he had been there since February 2023, and was hired at the minimum number of hours of 1,500 (not anything I read), that would be just 150 hours accumulated in that time span.
are you sure there is a 1500 hour minimum?

I’m not aware of any country other than the U.S that has a 1500 hour minimum. In fact it’s relatively new here. I had less than 800 hours when I was hired by my first airline at the age of 22.
 
This accident makes zero sense to me....time to await the black boxes.
This one is a real mystery. Did they secure the one operating engine? With all the duplicate systems and the free fall gear extension, how could they have landed no flaps and gear up, other than intentionally? Was there a massive electrical fault, even though at some time they had radios? Why did the SBD engine TR appear to deploy? Is a WOW switch or RA reading enough to unlock the TRs? Why were they so fast? Why didn't the airport taper the area between the end of the runway and the berm into a ramp to absorb some of the kinetic energy?
 
Is a WOW switch or RA reading enough to unlock the TRs? Why were they so fast? Why didn't the airport taper the area between the end of the runway and the berm into a ramp to absorb some of the kinetic energy?
Thrust reverser lock-out based on radar altitude. Not all airplanes have a lock-out. The DC9s I flew for over a decade did not.

~190 KIAS is consistent with a flaps-up final approach speed. Depends on weight, of course. Heavy, flaps are needed to slow to 210 KIAS. Vref would be a bit under that.

Different countries have different rules.
 
Clearly the right TR was out. But was it activated or did ground contact pull it open?
 
If anyone can do a more confused configuration for an emergency landing, it would be hard to imagine. They apparently did the impossible turn, only to discover that it was impossible to run all the checklists in time to set up for a stable, on speed and at touchdown approach. Something was really wrong in the cockpit.
 
I keep thinking about how they got to this point. I'm going to make up some complete fabrication but possible for the no flap/slats. The vid of the compressor stall shows flaps out maybe 10 or 15. Then, there was a report from a meatsack in back of a bird hitting the leading edge of the wing. Never mind the engines right now. If they had slat damage and tried to deploy, but got an asymmetrical flap/slat, the smart thing to do is retract the flaps, and plan a 'no flap/slat' approach. So, there's a number for that in the book and given the weight the target might be 180 plus 10 for the no flap appr. Ok, so that's my thinking right now, they were on speed or near enough for the condition and weight.

However, I cannot come up with even the remotest theory on no gear. Maybe my theory on no flap is all bovine scatology, and I can accept that. I'm just grinding the gears and finding a mesh that may fit. But over the fence with a stabilized approach and NO GEAR! defies both understanding and explanation.
 
I keep thinking about how they got to this point. I'm going to make up some complete fabrication but possible for the no flap/slats. The vid of the compressor stall shows flaps out maybe 10 or 15. Then, there was a report from a meatsack in back of a bird hitting the leading edge of the wing. Never mind the engines right now. If they had slat damage and tried to deploy, but got an asymmetrical flap/slat, the smart thing to do is retract the flaps, and plan a 'no flap/slat' approach. So, there's a number for that in the book and given the weight the target might be 180 plus 10 for the no flap appr. Ok, so that's my thinking right now, they were on speed or near enough for the condition and weight.

However, I cannot come up with even the remotest theory on no gear. Maybe my theory on no flap is all bovine scatology, and I can accept that. I'm just grinding the gears and finding a mesh that may fit. But over the fence with a stabilized approach and NO GEAR! defies both understanding and explanation.
Juan Browne and Denys/PilotBlog (https://www.youtube.com/@PilotBlogDenys/videos) believe that only the engine no. 2 (right) was running on landing, even though that was the one with the apparent compressor stall, perhaps because of bird strike. There's a clearly visible exhaust plume from no. 2 (right) but not no. 1 in the nose-on video of the landing. They suggest the pilots may have had no power or inadequate power in both engines, perhaps due to bird ingestion in no. 1 as well as no. 2. Or conceivably they shut down the wrong one (no. 1) after the compressor stall? They go on to say that optimal landing configuration for the 737 with dual engine failure is no flaps (and I think they said no gear as well?). Denys says he's highly experienced personally in the 737-800 and seems to know what he's talking about. If so, the flap retraction and no gear may have been intentional -- in which case they were too fast and too close, but committed at least from turning base. Denys includes a graph showing approximate glide slopes with and without flaps and gear, i.e. much longer glide in the clean configuration. (I'm definitely not a jet guy -- happy to stand corrected in all this!)

HHH

Screen Shot Airports Landed.png
 
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Seems obvious; “Boeing” is the default failure in so many disasters that it can go unsaid.

Are the astronauts home yet?
The "lifeboat" of record for Butch and Suni was Starliner, until the minute it undocked prior to making a successful return.
 
Seems obvious; “Boeing” is the default failure in so many disasters that it can go unsaid.

Are the astronauts home yet?
It's a bit early to blame Boeing for this one.

As for astronauts getting home-
The Dragon crew return had some issues. The astronauts were sent to a hospital, and one had to stay an additional night. It's interesting that the reason for the hospitalization isn't disclosed.

SpaceX has had helium leak issues recently as well:

Let's not forget they lost a stage due to an explosion:

SpaceX had a bad year.

And yes, Boeing could have done a lot better, but I reserve judgement that this is a Boeing problem given the information I've seen as of now. The plane was delivered in 2009 to Ryan Air. The Alaskan Airlines, Lion air, and Ethiopian Air issues all involved planes less than 1 year old and these crashed due to Boeing issues.
 
Wrong crew. Williams and Wilmore, the stranded Starliner astronauts, are still up there and not expected back until sometime in March.
Nope. Read the citations. There was a crew that came back on the Dragon capsule and were "unexpectedly hospitalized", one crew member longer than the others.
 
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Nope. Read the citations. There was a crew that come back on the Dragon capsule and were "unexpectedly hospitalized", one crew member longer than the others.

NASA astronauts Matthew Dominick, Michael Barratt, and Jeanette Epps, and Roscosmos cosmonaut Alexander Grebenkin were flown together to Ascension Sacred Heart Pensacola in Florida.
After medical evaluation at the hospital, three of the crew members departed Pensacola and have arrived at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston.
The one astronaut who remains at Ascension is in stable condition under observation as a precautionary measure. To protect the crew member’s medical privacy, specific details on the individual’s condition or identity will not be shared.​

The article names all four who returned but does not specify which one remains hospitalized. Williams and Wilmore are not among the four.

From a subsequent article,

After an overnight stay at Ascension Sacred Heart Pensacola in Florida, the NASA astronaut was released and returned to NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston Saturday. The crew member is in good health and will resume normal post-flight reconditioning with other crew members.
As part of NASA’s SpaceX Crew-8 mission, the astronaut was one of four crewmates who safely splashed down aboard their SpaceX Dragon spacecraft near Pensacola on Oct. 25. The crew members completed a 235-day mission, 232 days of which were spent aboard the International Space Station conducting scientific research.
 
NASA astronauts Matthew Dominick, Michael Barratt, and Jeanette Epps, and Roscosmos cosmonaut Alexander Grebenkin were flown together to Ascension Sacred Heart Pensacola in Florida.
After medical evaluation at the hospital, three of the crew members departed Pensacola and have arrived at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston.
The one astronaut who remains at Ascension is in stable condition under observation as a precautionary measure. To protect the crew member’s medical privacy, specific details on the individual’s condition or identity will not be shared.​

The article names all four who returned but does not specify which one remains hospitalized. Williams and Wilmore are not among the four.

From a subsequent article,

After an overnight stay at Ascension Sacred Heart Pensacola in Florida, the NASA astronaut was released and returned to NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston Saturday. The crew member is in good health and will resume normal post-flight reconditioning with other crew members.
As part of NASA’s SpaceX Crew-8 mission, the astronaut was one of four crewmates who safely splashed down aboard their SpaceX Dragon spacecraft near Pensacola on Oct. 25. The crew members completed a 235-day mission, 232 days of which were spent aboard the International Space Station conducting scientific research.
Nor did any citation explain why they were hospitalized. You are also ignoring all the other SpaceX issues from last year. Including a helium leak.
 
Nor did any citation explain why they were hospitalized. You are also ignoring all the other SpaceX issues from last year. Including a helium leak.

No, I’m simply saying the astronauts stranded by Boeing are still stranded. Period. You’re tossing in SpaceX issues. Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that Williams and Wilmore are still up there.
 
No, I’m simply saying the astronauts stranded by Boeing are still stranded. Period. You’re tossing in SpaceX issues. Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that Williams and Wilmore are still up there.
You're overlooking that SpaceX has issues similar to Boeing now. You're overlooking that the Jeju Aircrash is from an older aircraft, while the crashes that Boeing rightfully should be held responsible were new aircraft. Yet you are happy insinuating that Boeing is somehow responsible for the crash in Korea when no one knows what happened.
 
Nor did any citation explain why they were hospitalized. You are also ignoring all the other SpaceX issues from last year. Including a helium leak.
Four astronauts, who had just spent 235 days in space, went in for routine medical exams after a nominal return to earth to end a successful mission. That's not hospitalization. One of them was kept overnight in the hospital after 235 days in space, for an unknown medical condition. I'm baffled how you concluded that any of this is a black mark for SpaceX.

That seems like an extreme conclusion:

"The botched mission of the world's most active rocket ended a success streak of more than 300 straight missions during which SpaceX has maintained its dominance of the launch industry. Many countries and space companies rely on privately owned SpaceX, valued at roughly $200 billion, to send their satellites and astronauts into space."
 
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