Delta ATP-CTP Class

jayhawk74 said:
I know of a guy who left the Military with only a Multi engine ATP. It was easier for him to add a Single engine ATP than get a CSEL in order to fly a single engine airplane professionally.
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Oh, it's easy enough to get, it's just utterly useless.

Max Trescott went so far as to get an ATP-ASES. :rofl:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh, it's easy enough to get, it's just utterly useless.

Max Trescott went so far as to get an ATP-ASES. :rofl:
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The ATP SE, both land & sea, is not useless. If you don't have a Comm SE rating and you want to fly a Single Engine, land or sea, and get paid for it then getting the ATP SE is easier than getting a Commercial SE. As you said the ATP SE is easy enough to get, especially if you already have a Multi engine ATP.
 
jayhawk74 said:
The ATP SE, both land & sea, is not useless. If you don't have a Comm SE rating and you want to fly a Single Engine, land or sea, and get paid for it then getting the ATP SE is easier than getting a Commercial SE. As you said the ATP SE is easy enough to get, especially if you already have a Multi engine ATP.
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That falls under “easy enough to get”, but it’s still “useless”. There’s nothing you can do with an ATP ASE that you can’t do with a Commercial ASE.
 
mandm said:
Yeah we do A/T, manually increase throttles to N1 at 40 then press the TOGA buttons. Forgot what VNAV does, helps when you turn on the A/P or? I think we call out VNAV either at 400’ or 1000’, I forgot.
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On the line, we ARM the A/T, VNAV, and LNAV, if applicable to the clearance, when the takeoff data is loaded (uplink). That can happen as early as at the gate, if the loading has been closed out by ramp and customer service, and must happen before we do the Before Takeoff Checklist. Your picture showed you on the runway but the FMA was still blank. Obviously, reposition to that point is common in the sim.

TOGA does as you say, if the A/T is armed, and puts both pitch and roll into TOGA which will command the pitch for the initial climb on the F/D and command liftoff track on roll.

Roll mode will switch to HDG or LNAV, depending on the mode that is armed, no later than 400'. Some RNAV departures engage LNAV much earlier. See the Rwy 1 departure from DCA. LNAV engages immediately on liftoff to turn away from the prohibited area.

400' is the minimum autopilot engagement altitude per the Limitations section of the FM but it's really not a lot of help at that point. Easier to hand-fly the acceleration segment.

The acceleration schedule is programmed in the Takeoff 2/2 page and CLB page. That has your thrust reduction altitude, acceleration altitude, and engine-out acceleration altitude. VNAV will command a pitch attitude to accelerate to the the CLB page speed restriction while protecting the max flap speed for the current flap setting during clean up.

We set either an L1 or L2 climb, usually and L2 climb. That puts a 250kt limit on the CLIMB page L1 and clean maneuvering speed to 3,000' above the runway. That's an NADP2 departure profile. As flaps are retracted, VNAV will command a pitch for clean maneuvering until 3,000' above the runway then will command 250kts until we select, and execute, ECON CLIMB. In ECON CLB, VNAV will command a climb speed based on the CI (Cost Index) entered in the PERF/INIT page during setup. We use CI 10 as the default then increase from there if CI 10 puts us behind schedule.

You might find it interesting that we had a failed TOGA in October. I hit TOGA, several times, but it didn't take. It was my takeoff so I alerted the PM and emphasized for him to SET thrust. (Just like my 15 years flying DC8s and DC9s) After liftoff, the A/T modes operated normally. On the next takeoff, TOGA operated normally. Never did figure out why it didn't take.

My normal procedure to set takeoff thrust is to push up to 40%, N1 until the engines spool, push to 70% N1 to monitor normal acceleration, then push TOGA and follow the thrust levers as the A/T sets the scheduled T/O thrust. In this case, I pushed up toward takeoff thrust, when TOGA didn't engage, so that there wouldn't be a delay in achieving power and the PM would only have to fine tune it.
 
Larry in TN said:
Actually, I was making a joke about how loud the cockpit would be at 390kts.

And, protect Essential.
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I got the joke.

The 727 was my first jet. Never made it off the panel before the furlough. Then the place shut down. It was a short stay for me on the 727 but it was an awesome airplane. Getting experience on the panel has been very beneficial.
 
ok, how do ya'll feel about ATP multi for flying say for example a Piper Apache PA-23-150. Would that require one of these airline-based sim classes?
 
Brad W said:
ok, how do ya'll feel about ATP multi for flying say for example a Piper Apache PA-23-150. Would that require one of these airline-based sim classes?
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I'm not sure what you mean. CTP, which includes the overpriced sim hours, is a requirement to be eligible to take the ATP written, post rule-change back in the mid 2010s. It's not optional.
 
Brad W said:
ok, how do ya'll feel about ATP multi for flying say for example a Piper Apache PA-23-150. Would that require one of these airline-based sim classes?
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Not sure what u mean. Are you just flying an Apache around for funsies?
 
yeah I suppose my "question" was poorly presented.
to be clear, what I'm wondering is this
Are the only options for this 'CTP' to attend something like what has been described here...basically private pay for a class and ride in an airline sim?
or alternatively are there simpler options? (can any local flight school do it?). I mean, If I have zero desire to actually fly airlines but want the ATP rating, can I do the course in a GA aircraft....or a GA simulator?
This is just a curiosity line of questioning...the first I'd heard of this CTP course (since clearly I'm not on that track) and I'm just trying to better understand what it is.
 
Brad W said:
yeah I suppose my "question" was poorly presented.
to be clear, what I'm wondering is this
Are the only options for this 'CTP' to attend something like what has been described here...basically private pay for a class and ride in an airline sim?
or alternatively are there simpler options? (can any local flight school do it?). I mean, If I have zero desire to actually fly airlines but want the ATP rating, can I do the course in a GA aircraft....or a GA simulator?
This is just a curiosity line of questioning...the first I'd heard of this CTP course (since clearly I'm not on that track) and I'm just trying to better understand what it is.
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You must attend an approved CTP course, and the simulator portion has to be an airplane with a minimum takeoff weight of 40,000 lbs, so most local flight schools wouldn’t have the required equipment.
 
there's no pricing choice, it's a cartel. $4-$5k is about the going rate, regardless where you go.

As to the "I'm not interested in the airlines"....I mean, it even says 'airline' on the ticket (yes yes, I know other than part121 also use it as a discriminator). Pursuing credentials for recreation doesn't exempt you from the cost.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I got the joke.

The 727 was my first jet. Never made it off the panel before the furlough. Then the place shut down. It was a short stay for me on the 727 but it was an awesome airplane. Getting experience on the panel has been very beneficial.
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I did my ~600 hours of FE time on the DC8. Never flew, nor plumbed, the 727. Just jumpseat. Strange place to put the gear silence switch. It was just under the throttles in the DC9. Never need to use it on the 737.
 
Brad W said:
ok, how do ya'll feel about ATP multi for flying say for example a Piper Apache PA-23-150. Would that require one of these airline-based sim classes?
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I'm not up on the current regs but I needed an ATP to fly Grand Canyon tours in a C-402 back in 1990 because we did scheduled operations. I don't think it would have been needed if they were non-sked.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I think it’s funny that a rule stemming from an accident that could have been avoided by exercising basic stick and rudder skills mandated a course that teaches you how to use the automation.
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In my review of the course, I noted the Colgan pilots would have passed this. And also I still don't know how to start a jet but I guess if a pilot gets sick on my next flight I will know how to handle an RA.
They really could have done a lot better with that course. Introduction to Crew flying and would have been way more beneficial than watching videos of Captain Joe whom I love dearly explain hydroplaning on a wet runway and studying every commercial crash since the 1980s.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I still don't know how to start a jet
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1. APU ... ON (plus 2 NG/3 MAX minute warm up.
2. Packs .(both) OFF
3. Isolation Value ... Auto
4. APU Bleed Air ... ON
5. Engine Start Switch (right first) ... GND
6. Chronograph start
6. Monitor: start value open (Upper DU), N2 rotation, oil pressure, N1 rotation (MAX: MOTORING on EGT)
7. At 25% N2, Fuel Fuel Switch ... IDLE
8. Monitor: Fuel flow then EGT
9. Monitor: Start value closed at 58%/63% N2, EGT red start limit radial removed

If you want pack air while you start the left engine (you do):
1. Isolation switch ... Closed
2. Right pack switch ... On

Start the left engine with the same procedure starting at Step 5

After left engine start
1. APU bleed switch ... Off
2. Isolation switch ... Auto
3. Left pack switch ... On
 
Larry in TN said:
1. APU ... ON (plus 2 NG/3 MAX minute warm up.
2. Packs .(both) OFF
3. Isolation Value ... Auto
4. APU Bleed Air ... ON
5. Engine Start Switch (right first) ... GND
6. Chronograph start
6. Monitor: start value open (Upper DU), N2 rotation, oil pressure, N1 rotation (MAX: MOTORING on EGT)
7. At 25% N2, Fuel Fuel Switch ... IDLE
8. Monitor: Fuel flow then EGT
9. Monitor: Start value closed at 58%/63% N2, EGT red start limit radial removed

If you want pack air while you start the left engine (you do):
1. Isolation switch ... Closed
2. Right pack switch ... On

Start the left engine with the same procedure starting at Step 5

After left engine start
1. APU bleed switch ... Off
2. Isolation switch ... Auto
3. Left pack switch ... On
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Expect a call from TSA. :)
 
There used to be a place in FL that would do your ATP ASMELS. In ONE checkride.

They used a Twin Bee and a C-172 on Amphib floats. I forget exactly how it worked, but you did most of the check ride in one of the two with a land and water landing, then jumped into the other for a water and land landing.
 
jayhawk74 said:
The ATP SE, both land & sea, is not useless. If you don't have a Comm SE rating and you want to fly a Single Engine, land or sea, and get paid for it then getting the ATP SE is easier than getting a Commercial SE.
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How so? Are you presuming that the pilot is starting with ATP-AMEL and is highly proficient with their instrument skills?
SixPapaCharlie said:
In my review of the course, I noted the Colgan pilots would have passed this.
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The Colgan pilots also had well north of 1500 hours.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How so? Are you presuming that the pilot is starting with ATP-AMEL and is highly proficient with their instrument skills?

The Colgan pilots also had well north of 1500 hours.
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Yes I am presuming that the pilot has an ATP-AMEL. This would be for a military pilot who received an ATP based on the pilot's military time. I know some airline pilots who are former military and only have an ATP-AMEL. So if they wanted to fly a single engine, either as a Private or Commercial Plot, it was easier to get an ATP-ASEL added to their certificate.
 
Larry in TN said:
Many of us prefer this lifestyle over a "normal" 9-to-5. It's really nice to frequently have a week-long block of days off and no pending work in your inbox distracting you. Just depends on the individual.

Will be interested to hear about your experience in the sim. The MAX flies a lot nicer than the NG. It's funny how so many passengers are afraid of the MAX while almost all of us 737 pilots much prefer it over the NG models.
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Except for those lengthy engine starts on the MAX. I can have both engines running before they disconnect tug on the NG.

Other than that, I enjoy the MAX over the NG for sure.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of course, ATP-ASEL is the most useless rating ever - There's pretty much no real-world operations that require it and it's difficult to even come up with theoretical ones that would.
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Would some Cape Air pilots use this rating? They fly a lot of single engine planes. How about Kenmore Air for ATP-ASES?
 
jayhawk74 said:
Yes I am presuming that the pilot has an ATP-AMEL. This would be for a military pilot who received an ATP based on the pilot's military time.
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Military pilots do not get ATP certificates based on their military experience, only Commercial certificates (after the applicable military competency knowledge test specified in 61.73). They get their ATP certificates just like anyone else*.

* This can still be while on active duty, depending on the circumstances, but they have to have already done the conversion for a civilian Commercial certificate. There are quite a few military aircraft which are just modified (or not very modified) civilian aircraft, and often the pilot will go to CAE or FlightSafety, etc., just like everyone else to get their type rating. Those schools can usually make it an ATP check ride at the same time, IF the pilot has passed the knowledge test already.
 
Fracpilot said:
Except for those lengthy engine starts on the MAX. I can have both engines running before they disconnect tug on the NG.
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Right. ~55 second vs. nearly 3 minutes (when warm). Takes a lot more planning on a single-engine taxi.

I've heard that the Leap-1a engines can both motor at the same time on the Airbus. That would be nice.

Cap'n Jack said:
So what does Cape Air, Kenmore, Tropic Ocean, Seattle Seaplane, and other airlines with single-engine planes use? ATP + type certificate?
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The reg doesn't require an ATP for single-engine ops of airplanes that small. Just CPL. Non-jets, of those sizes, don't require type ratings. The small twins (under 10 passenger seats, IIRC) only require ATP for scheduled operations.

In 1990 I flew Grand Canyon tours. When I started, I was a few hours short of ATP minimums so initially only flew the C-207. When I got the ATP I also flew the C-402. Most of our flights were scheduled airline ops. CPL could have flown the C-402 in non-scheduled ops.
 
Larry in TN said:
The reg doesn't require an ATP for single-engine ops of airplanes that small. Just CPL. Non-jets, of those sizes, don't require type ratings. The small twins (under 10 passenger seats, IIRC) only require ATP for scheduled operations.
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Thank you for the explanation. I thought that, since Cape Air for example, were scheduled operations, the pilots needed an ATP.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Would some Cape Air pilots use this rating? They fly a lot of single engine planes. How about Kenmore Air for ATP-ASES?
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Nope... I don't think Cape Air has used any singles in quite a while, possibly ever. For a long time they only operated C402s, now they're transitioning to Tecnam P2012s. They have operated Islanders, ATRs, etc but no singles that I'm aware of.

Kenmore uses lots of SES aircraft, but the largest is the Otter which has 10 passenger seats but is not a jet so doesn't require ATP.
Cap'n Jack said:
So what does Cape Air, Kenmore, Tropic Ocean, Seattle Seaplane, and other airlines with single-engine planes use? ATP + type certificate?
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Commercial, with instrument rating. Unless otherwise stated in another regulation, Comm+Inst is the same as ATP:

§ 61.167 Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.​

(a) Privileges.​

(1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.​

But, there are several regulations that state otherwise. (See below.)

There is one additional privilege, listed in 61.167(a)(2), which is to instruct in certain cases.
Larry in TN said:
The reg doesn't require an ATP for single-engine ops of airplanes that small. Just CPL. Non-jets, of those sizes, don't require type ratings. The small twins (under 10 passenger seats, IIRC) only require ATP for scheduled operations.

In 1990 I flew Grand Canyon tours. When I started, I was a few hours short of ATP minimums so initially only flew the C-207. When I got the ATP I also flew the C-402. Most of our flights were scheduled airline ops. CPL could have flown the C-402 in non-scheduled ops.
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Cap'n Jack said:
Thank you for the explanation. I thought that, since Cape Air for example, were scheduled operations, the pilots needed an ATP.
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So, here's the things that require an ATP:

Part 91K Fractional Operations, PIC in multiengine turbine fixed-wing or powered lift ops - 91.1053(a)(2)(i).
Part 135 passenger operations, PIC of turbojet with 10 or more passenger seats - 135.243(a)(1).
Part 135 commuter operations, PIC of multiengine airplane - 135.243(a)(1).
Part 121 airline operations, PIC - 121.436(a)(1).
Part 121 airline operations, SIC - 121.436(b).

That's it. Sure would be nice if they'd put all those regs in one place, though, like 61.167.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Thank you for the explanation. I thought that, since Cape Air for example, were scheduled operations, the pilots needed an ATP.
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Regs used to require an ATP for scheduled 135, but that went away at some point.
mandm said:
Would make sense to just have ATP-Airplane then and skip the single/multi part/exam/checkride.
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it would make more sense to remove it from 61 Subpart G, but as noted above, it’s easier not to have to learn stuff like lazy-8s and turns about a point.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
In my review of the course, I noted the Colgan pilots would have passed this. And also I still don't know how to start a jet but I guess if a pilot gets sick on my next flight I will know how to handle an RA.
They really could have done a lot better with that course. Introduction to Crew flying and would have been way more beneficial than watching videos of Captain Joe whom I love dearly explain hydroplaning on a wet runway and studying every commercial crash since the 1980s.
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The FAA forgot to read the chapter in the AIH about how adults learn.
 
yeah I remember the owner of a local 135 back home seeking relief from ATP requirements some years ago; this thread drift reminded me of that kerfuffle. I haven't kept up with that employer since my dream of full-time retirement back home is all but dead these days (only commutable options available to me are a couple 121s, if they don't close the domicile before then that is).

At any rate, that's another example of how the rules listed make ATP the going rate for entry, even outside 121 proper.
 
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