Navy gets a kill…F/A-18

That has probably already happened…

I saw a ship make a mistake and the CO relieved in less than 20 minutes… literally physically removed even.

It’s a BRUTAL world shipdrivers live.

Tools

Who graduated at the VERY top of the bottom ten percent at Annapolis. Who knew the culpable result of the Naval Academy was driving a ship??
 
Tools said:
That has probably already happened…

I saw a ship make a mistake and the CO relieved in less than 20 minutes… literally physically removed even.
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Had a CO who said "Always keep a package of Hostess cup cakes in your desk drawer. You never know when you're going to need a change of command cake"
 
Bill said:
“I stand relieved”, CO CG-64
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Tools said:
That has probably already happened…
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While I can understand why that would happen if you run your battleship aground, I'm not sure I understand the reason for an instant dismissal in this case.
If the rumors are true that they weren't informed about the pressence of the carrier, the fault lies further up the chain of command.
Even if it was an internal error, unless the CO directly mis-identified the threat and issued the fire order, I don't understand why his head should roll because someone two levels down made that error. In that case, maybe everyone above him in the chain of command should resign as well?
 
AV8R_87 said:
While I can understand why that would happen if you run your battleship aground, I'm not sure I understand the reason for an instant dismissal in this case.
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Splash two airmen and an ~$60M aircraft and there’s going to be hell to pay.
AV8R_87 said:
Even if it was an internal error, unless the CO directly mis-identified the threat and issued the fire order, I don't understand why his head should roll because someone two levels down made that error.
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Because the CO always has ultimate responsibility for what happens on his ship. That’s driven into your head from day 1. Even if it’s the greenest seaman recruit that FUBARs the ship, CO burns with him.

I’m sure the OOD’s career is also toast along with others.
 
AV8R_87 said:
While I can understand why that would happen if you run your battleship aground, I'm not sure I understand the reason for an instant dismissal in this case.
If the rumors are true that they weren't informed about the pressence of the carrier, the fault lies further up the chain of command.
Even if it was an internal error, unless the CO directly mis-identified the threat and issued the fire order, I don't understand why his head should roll because someone two levels down made that error. In that case, maybe everyone above him in the chain of command should resign as well?
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To be clear, very few details are available and other than the names of the ships/squadron involved, I wouldn't trust much else that is open source right now.

Bottom line the ship in question was the Air Defense Commander (aka 'Whiskey') for the Carrier. I'd be flabbergasted if the ship was unaware of the presence of the carrier or flight ops being conducted. MANY things went wrong for this to happen. It's extremely difficult for an AEGIS ship to shoot down a friendly and in fact, this is the very first true friendly fire shoot down by an AEGIS warship. Let that sink in. First Friendly Fire shootdown in over 40 years of service. Closest other incident would be the VINCENNES v Airbus but that wasn't quite the same thing.

Unless the CO directed something out of line, I doubt the CO would be relieved before an investigation has run its course.
 
Bill said:
Even if it’s the greenest seaman recruit that FUBARs the ship, CO burns with him.
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That seems like a great way for our enemies to destroy us. Just bribe some disgruntled seaman at the bottom of the food chain to do something stupid.
 
I just read a report which said that it was a cruise missile which hit the F-18. If that's the case, it sounds more like a mid-air between a manned and unmanned aircraft rather than a "shoot down".
 
donjohnston said:
I just read a report which said that it was a cruise missile which hit the F-18. If that's the case, it sounds more like a mid-air between a manned and unmanned aircraft rather than a "shoot down".
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That would be interesting - two VERY different flight profiles.
 
donjohnston said:
I just read a report which said that it was a cruise missile which hit the F-18. If that's the case, it sounds more like a mid-air between a manned and unmanned aircraft rather than a "shoot down".
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The CENTCOM release specifically said:
“The guided missile cruiser USS Gettysburg, which is part of the USS Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group, mistakenly fired on and hit the F/A-18,”
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I highly doubt that they would have released that if this was a Tomahawk having a midair with a Hornet, never mind it would be highly unlikely for the flight profiles to conflict.
 
Someone learn me more on IFF? This was a MISSILE ship, I'm going to guess it wasn't a dumb lead projectile that scored a hit, but something with a smart-card in the nose. They are in the RED SEA. A hostile enviro. Not like the plane will be out there doing wifferdills.
 
Barrett50 said:
Someone learn me more on IFF?
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It's only as good as everyone being on the same page and sending back the (expected) reply code. If they weren't briefed about the carrier being in the area, decent chance they also weren't given the right IFF keys for them.
 
Oh a million things…. True no fault to cruiser CO if not his fault. I know of a number of times a combatant nearly shot down a friendly completely legitimately.

But IF at fault… heads roll FAST. And exactly right, EVERYTHING falls on the CO. That guy is THE MOST powerful person in the nation. He can take away freedom WITHOUT due process. With that comes EXTREME accountability.

F18 could have easily screwed up and been in wrong place, maybe not configured correctly, who knows. For me it’s a pure 50/50 in terms of odds. I’ve worked in both environments, both on a combatant surface ship as well as a due regard aircraft off a carrier.
 
AV8R_87 said:
It's only as good as everyone being on the same page and sending back the (expected) reply code. If they weren't briefed about the carrier being in the area, decent chance they also weren't given the right IFF keys for them.
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If post 13 is correct(and it makes logical sense), the missile ship was the air defense for the carrier group. Apparently, the plane was downed not long after launch. Inexcusable that both parties would be on a different attack/defense profile page. Note; I've never served aboard ship, they just delivered me where I was needed.
 
Tools said:
But IF at fault… heads roll FAST. And exactly right, EVERYTHING falls on the CO.
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Not trying to start an argument, but let's go through the hypothetical (and highly simplified) scenario below:
E8 receives new crypto keys for IFF, with orders to load them. Fails to do so (for whatever reason), but reports up the chain that he did.
Radar pick up unknown (and potentially unexpected) target. Multiple attacks already happened same day. CO gets notified about it. Asks if target replies friendly, gets told no. Asks if any friendlys are expected in the area. No again. Permission to fire is requested and granted based on the information provided.
I don't see what we have to gain from losing a good CO that was fed garbage data by his crew and superiors.
 
Skipper may not have been involved AT ALL. Still accountable.

The thing to be gained is a TRUE military structure. More than ANY other venue, there has to be COMPLETE authority at sea. There always has been.

In the midst of total peace, on a reserve frigate inport San Diego, as the MOST junior officer onboard I told three kids (as a 22 yr old) to stand fast in the face of death in my first 2 months onboard.

Authority, respect, responsibility, LEADERSHIP (no such thing as a manager on a ship) mean exactly what they mean. It’s absolute and unswerving.

Among other things this possibility helps to keep people away from the venue who aren’t committed to maintaining this sort of order and discipline. I couldn’t have done what I did if I wasn’t COMPLETELY convinced my leadership wasn’t completely onboard with this principle.
 
Pretty sure the aircraft would be tested with a IFF gun prior to launch…even Army guys got a ping prior to launching in my limited experience flying from LHA’s and in the Navy’s territory…maybe it was us not trusting the system but that was in the distant past. Also I assume AGIS class radar has the ability to profile the target like an AWACS and tell the operator literally the make and model of the target…then again if there were hostiles in the area its can break down protocols.
 
Warlock said:
Pretty sure the aircraft would be tested with a IFF gun prior to launch…even Army guys got a ping prior to launching in my limited experience flying from LHA’s and in the Navy’s territory…maybe it was us not trusting the system but that was in the distant past. Also I assume AGIS class radar has the ability to profile the target like an AWACS and tell the operator literally the make and model of the target…then again if there were hostiles in the area its can break down protocols.
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Without going into classified details, there are safeties involved that should have made this shoot impossible.

Again, this is literally the first AEGIS fratracide in over 40 years of service.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Without going into classified details, there are safeties involved that should have made this shoot impossible.

Again, this is literally the first AEGIS fratracide in over 40 years of service.
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yup, I'll take "hollowing of the force" for $200 Alex.

In a way, I sleep better at night knowing we really aren't as capable to power project against a peer adversary as we advertise anymore, creates a natural insulation from getting into more trouble than we can chew on the daily.

We have the hypothetical capacity to do so again of course, but our civilian bedframe is too busy with their pre-diabetes and electronic bread-and-circuses to put some skin on the game in order to make that happen. Recruiting goals continue to go unmet, and standards continue to lower in the enlisted echelons. Don't blue-on-blue this messenger now.... :fingerwag:
 
A reminder to allies: Your F/A-18s are perfectly safe… unless we’re nearby...
 
Tools said:
Skipper may not have been involved AT ALL. Still accountable.

The thing to be gained is a TRUE military structure. More than ANY other venue, there has to be COMPLETE authority at sea. There always has been.

In the midst of total peace, on a reserve frigate inport San Diego, as the MOST junior officer onboard I told three kids (as a 22 yr old) to stand fast in the face of death in my first 2 months onboard.

Authority, respect, responsibility, LEADERSHIP (no such thing as a manager on a ship) mean exactly what they mean. It’s absolute and unswerving.

Among other things this possibility helps to keep people away from the venue who aren’t committed to maintaining this sort of order and discipline. I couldn’t have done what I did if I wasn’t COMPLETELY convinced my leadership wasn’t completely onboard with this principle.
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The exception being Fred Moosally, captain of the USS Iowa on April 19, 1989. In spite of a MCPO conducting illegal firings using prohibited combinations of shells and powder, including the load that exploded in Turret 2 after an overram, an unqualified gunnery officer that approved the illegal firings, turrets manned by sailors that had not attained PQS, and an incredible list of other faults, Moosally escaped any censure or reprimand and continued in command after 47 sailors died.

The inquiry was a farce, and the attempt to place blame on a dead sailor was disgusting.

It was undoubtedly the most shameful episode in the history of the US Navy.
 
"The incident came as the U.S. military conducted airstrikes targeting Yemen’s Houthi rebels, though the U.S. military’s Central Command did not elaborate on what their mission was at the time."

“The guided missile cruiser USS Gettysburg, which is part of the USS Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group, mistakenly fired on and hit the F/A-18, which was flying off the USS Harry S. Truman,” Central Command said in a statement."

Someone had an itchy trigger finger.
 
Barrett50 said:
If post 13 is correct(and it makes logical sense), the missile ship was the air defense for the carrier group. Apparently, the plane was downed not long after launch.
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Reminds me a story from WWII. After several years of attacks by He-111s and Do-17s, the Allied ships of the arctic convoys were trigger-happy. Finally, the Admiralty started including Jeep carriers carrying Seafires to protect the convoy.

On the first launch of a Seafire, all the merchantmen of the convoy opened fire on it. The Admiral then sent a message to the convoy:

"Basic lesson in aircraft identification: One engine, ours. Two engines, German."

Ron Wanttaja
 
I'm just glad we can joke about it -- because the airmen survived. Including the gallows humor about ramifications (consequences?) to those in command.
 
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