The touch and go might not count for night passenger currency but it does for day currency (unless it's a tailwheel).If the landing doesn’t count for currency, does the takeoff count as a takeoff to make it a separate flight?
Another commercial x country question: night
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
True, but the intent is to turn the flight into a night cross country.
Lindberg
Final Approach
No agenda. It's a real situation that occurred and actually doesn't have a clear answer and reasonable minds have differed on. But it is interesting to see folks certain they know what the correct answer is, based on what they think the answer should be.
Lindberg
Final Approach
The FAA says that a flight ends when the aircraft comes to rest. How can a new flight begin before the previous flight ends?
Rgbeard
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rgbeard
Maybe what’s flown and what’s logged differs for some.
not promoting the practice. Not sayin’. Just sayin’.
not promoting the practice. Not sayin’. Just sayin’.
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
Please provide the quoted reference so as to be able to see the context as well as the specific wording.
What was the real situation?
So? How is a certain type of landing that is solely to establish the authority to carry passengers during the period from one hour after sunset to one hour before sunrise relevant to a dual xc flight that takes place during "the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac".
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I like that question. It sounds like @Lindberg is quoting the FAR 1.1 definition of "flight time." I agree with you it's not relevant when there are so many "flights" in the regs with multiple legs, except that you don't get to log the time you stopped for lunch
If this came up in a real situation I'd be curious how and how the qualifying flights were logged.
I'm definitely interested in support for the view that a 100 nm 2 hour flight in night time conditions would be satisfied by only the first or the last 0.1 hour being at night.
OTOH, after 30 posts there usually isn't anything new.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Where did you get that only .1 hour was flown at night? That's not what I wrote. I specified that >2 hours and >100 miles were down at night.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Ok, I'll bite. What definition of "flight" are you using? The 1.1 definition is entirely consistent with your example because a flight can be composed of multiple flight segments. But I see nothing indicating that a single block of flight time can be broken into multiple flights. And the former does not imply the latter.I like that question. It sounds like @Lindberg is quoting the FAR 1.1 definition of "flight time." I agree with you it's not relevant when there are so many "flights" in the regs with multiple legs, except that you don't get to log the time you stopped for lunch
Pointing out that a touch and go is sufficient to break a flight into multiple segments doesn't answer the question of whether it's sufficient to start a new flight. To illustrate this, with another scenario, could I satisfy 61.129(a)(3)(iv) & (4)(i) with a single 500-mile flight with touch and gos at appropriate distances if I'm "performing the duties of PIC for at least 300 miles including three landings, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the first touch and go?
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
Are you willing to provide quotes from FAA yourself or is this only going one way where quotes are provide to you and you continue to read into everything that which you want to read?
That has already been quotes and provided to you in this thread.
Just wondering if this is an academic question, a real situation or another scenario. I get confused easily so please excuse me if this was already answered and I just missed it reading through the (so far) 40 posts on the subject.
There were several that suggested that not all of the flight needs to be at night.
I think you misunderstood. I was specifically responding to your
The only FAA definition I'm aware of which says that is the definition of "flight time," so I thought that's what you were referring to. If not, I'm curious where you got your FAA definition. Mine? It's been mentioned several times that the FAA allows us what to consider a discrete flight or several legs of a single flight.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Does that help? This occurred, but not to me. Hence my plea to not offer advice to do another flight.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Yes, I was referring to the definition of "flight time," which you said is not relevant. So in wondering what definition is relevant. As I said, the fact that multiple flight segments can be counted different ways does not imply that a touch and go starts a new flight.
Of course it doesn't. But neither does the definition of flight time. Better yet would be whether the touchdown of a touch & go is a "landing." The group of rules specifically requiring a full stop for various purposes at least suggest that it is. If not why bother specifying full stop?
Like I said a bit earlier, after 30 posts there's nothing new. I'll watch the thread to see if you ever tell us the real situation which raised the question but otherwise it seems to be an academic discussion that is going around in circles.
Pinecone
En-Route
"Flight time is defined in 14 C.F.R. § 1.1, in pertinent part, as "[p]ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." In a 2004 interpretation issued to Randall C. Kania, the FAA explained that once flight time commences, it continues to accrue as long as the pilot is required to remain onboard the aircraft. Thus, an aircraft does not come to rest after landing while the flightcrew is required to remain on the aircraft."
So a full stop landing with a taxi back to take off does not constitute a new flight.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...16/Johnson-ALPA_2016_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
Good quote but an erroneous conclusion. Your conclusion conflates allowable flight time with the logging of flights.
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(See what I mean about nothing new?)
But I can't resist, so let's follow that analysis through...
The commercial solo cross country:
One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
Better not stop for fuel, food, or weather! That will end the flight, so you won't have one. All those FAA statements about being able to stay overnight or divert for weather? Wrong!
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
Lindberg
Final Approach
That would actually be a perfectly reasonable and consistent interpretation, except the FAA has explicitly said that you can combine adjustment flight segments however you want in your logbook. However, it's never said that you can break up a single flight into multiple flights, so again, this doesn't tell us anything useful about touch and goes.
Lindberg
Final Approach
A touch and go is a landing. I didn't think there was any question about that. So what does that demonstrate?
The real situation is what I presented in the OP, but it didn't happen to me. A DPE was confronted with this question, and received what I considered surprising (but not authoritative) answers.
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
No. That is not what they said. Instead of paraphrasing and using your own words to describe what you think they mean, why not just quote them directly? Simply reading exactly what they say may remove all of your ambiguity unless of course you are trying to find some strange and convoluted path to reach your predetermined conclusion.
In my words, the FAA is clearly saying how you want to log your flight is your own business. Which has nothing to do with what is allowable to be logged and is its own subject. For allowable logged time whether you want that on one entry in your logbook or two entries in your logbook or three entries in your logbook is entirely up to you.
No. In the OP you said this was academic. You did not say this was a real situation.
If you depart on your nighttime XC intending on meeting the commercial requirement and you depart NOT in what is considered nighttime for the purposes of this requirement then no matter how you try to spin this, you have NOT met the requirements for the Commercial XC nighttime flight. Given the extreme decrease in the number of FAA Legal Interpretations being published in the last few years, I highly doubt that they would even publish a legal interpretation on this should you actually think it a serious enough question to pose to them. What would the question be like? Can the nighttime Commercial XC be counted as legal if it is only partially flown during nighttime conditions? That is the question - is it not? I would hate to think I was paraphrasing you and getting it incorrect.
Lindberg
Final Approach
You admonish me against paraphrasing and then proceed to incorrectly paraphrase. The FAA in Glenn is referring to "how separate flights must be logged." It does not say "how you want to log your flight is your own business." If anything, it says how you combine otherwise separate flights is your business. In fact, that's assumed in the scenario that Glenn is answering: "To log cross-country time, the pilot flies from Airport A to Airport C as a discreet flight. The pilot then flies a separate flight from Airport C to Airport B, which is a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm, and from Airport B to Airport A." Glenn certainly doesn't say anything about splitting one flight into multiple by doing a touch and go.
No. In the OP I said it was academic for me, to ward off the obvious POA tendency to give advice rather than answer the question asked:
And I even clarified in post #18.This is a purely academic question for me. I already have my commercial cert, so please don't tell me to just go fly another x country.
I agree that this is likely the correct answer, as I have already said. And I don't see any support for the position that a night touch and go fixes it. But I recognize the ambiguity on both counts. Actually, the only thing I really take issue with is the posters who are certain they know the correct answer.
Mongoose Aviator
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dmspilot
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Do you see support for a full stop landing fixing it? Even just a stop and go on the runway?
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3G
I’d lump this in the category of you never know until you ask. Word will get out and in a few years it may be that bunch of people will get 44709 notices because a DPE was checking airmen found to be unqualified for their certificate.
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Lindberg
Final Approach
If by full-stop landing, you mean pulling into the ramp and shutting down, then yes. I wouldn't rely on a stop and go.
FlyingCinema
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Is there an FAA opinion that defines this flight as one requiring a single leg of 2 or more hours. Im interested to know if I can fly 100nm land on the go and fly back, all totally more than two hours of flight time? At night of course.
If there’s another tread that covers this, I apologies in advance.
If there’s another tread that covers this, I apologies in advance.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
If you mean you're going to take off, fly 100nm, do a touch and go exactly at evening civil twilight, and fly back all in two hours - No, that wouldn't count. Each of the flights specifically says "One 2-hour cross country flight... in (daytime/nighttime) conditions". So the whole two hours for each needs to be in day, or in night.
Now, if you fly for two hours, land before evening civil twilight, then turn around and fly two hours back beginning after evening civil twilight, then yes you can do that as each flight is two hours.
Where did you come up with that?
RussR
En-Route
With what part? You are replying to an almost-2 year old post as well.
If you mean the first sentence, the precedent is Chief Counsel letters on Safety Piloting that clearly state the SP cannot log XC time because they did not do the takeoff and the landing (or if they did, then the other pilot can't log XC).
Do you mean something like
"only the pilot conducting the entire flight, including takeoff, landing, and en route flight, as a required flight crewmember may log cross-country time." (FAA Chief Counsel)
?
Or is it something else? Like the concept that a flight to somewhere involves a takeoff.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
...Unless you're talking about staying current for passenger carrying purposes (1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise) or what lights you need to have on (SS-SR), because the FAA doesn't have to make sense.
On a side note, I think it’s important to fly after sunset in both east and west directions so you can get used to adjusting your eyes for darkness. I recently experienced this where I had a hard time seeing but realized that I just needed time to adjust to the coming night. Once it was pitch black out, things were easier.
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3G
Homedrome usually lands left traffic runway 14. At pattern altitude at civili twilight, you look left and see the runway, then some buildings, then the sun setting.
Turn left base and start watching the shadows creep closer to the runway. Turn final and wonder where the runway is in the black hole in front of you.