Someone Else's Started Project?

[Kevin Eggert]

My question is this... What is the best way to document a build when you buy a E/AB kit project that was started but not completed by someone else? There are some build sheets, but not as much documentation or pictures as I would have taken if I were doing it myself. When it comes time for getting an airworthiness certificate, how much will need to be shown for stuff that was done prior to me. Do I need to disassemble some things and start the record keeping process over for what was done previously? From what I can see, the prior builder did a quality job at what was done. Not that it really matters, but the prior builder is deceased, so not really able to help with any of this.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Mostly done or just started?

If I was concerned, I would ask the DAR that is likely to be inspecting it what he/she would expect.

I believe the FAA suggests checking with the FSDO... https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf

 

[Kevin Eggert]

Mostly done or just started?

If I was concerned, I would ask the DAR that is likely to be inspecting it what he/she would expect.

I believe the FAA suggests checking with the FSDO... https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf

Around 25% of the way to completion. I'll contact the local FSDO and see what they have to say.

 

[Daleandee]

The inspection is done on a completed airplane. If you are after the repairman's certificate then good build logs will need to be available:

§ 65.104 Repairman certificate—experimental aircraft builder—Eligibility, privileges and limitations.

(a) To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder), an individual must—

(1) Be at least 18 years of age;

(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;

(3) Show to the satisfaction of the Administrator that the individual has the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe operations; and

(4) Be a citizen of the United States or an individual citizen of a foreign country who has lawfully been admitted for permanent residence in the United States.

(b) The holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) may perform condition inspections on the aircraft constructed by the holder in accordance with the operating limitations of that aircraft.

(c) Section 65.103 does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) while performing under that certificate.

Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[TCABM]

I’d be more worried about how much of the finished needs to be re-done.

 

[Daleandee]

I’d be more worried about how much of the finished needs to be re-done.

Absolutely. The last kit I bought had a bit of previous work that was poorly done. I believe that was the reason the fellow sold it as he realized early in that he didn't know what he was doing. Most was noticed during the buying inspection but there were a few other discrepancies found out later.

That meant doing some disassembly, ordering a few parts and hand making others, but in the end it came out really good. I had an excellent mentor working with me and learned lot ...

 

[tsts4]

You don’t need to disassemble anything as far as the AWC is concerned. Ideally you received the previous owners build log with the kit to which you’d add your contribution. In the end whether the inspector, be it a DAR or a FSDO employee, wants to see the log is dependent on the individual inspector. Some do some don’t. Best to ask them exactly what they want to see both paperwork and aircraft wise before the inspection so there are no surprises, I used a FSDO inspector for my RV-10 and he didn’t look at my build log at all even though I had it in a binder with all of the other necessary documents. Neither did the FSDO guy that interviewed me for my Repairman’s Certificate (although he did grill me for an hour and half mostly on my power plant and associated systems knowledge). I had it with me but he wasn’t interested,

 

[Daleandee]

You don’t need to disassemble anything as far as the AWC is concerned. Ideally you received the previous owners build log with the kit to which you’d add your contribution. In the end whether the inspector, be it a DAR or a FSDO employee, wants to see the log is dependent on the individual inspector. Some do some don’t. Best to ask them exactly what they want to see both paperwork and aircraft wise before the inspection so there are no surprises, I used a FSDO inspector for my RV-10 and he didn’t look at my build log at all even though I had it in a binder with all of the other necessary documents. Neither did the FSDO guy that interviewed me for my Repairman’s Certificate (although he did grill me for an hour and half mostly on my power plant and associated systems knowledge). I had it with me but he wasn’t interested,

On one build (17 years ago) it seems the old boy had the paperwork done before I could get the hangar open for the inspection. Never asked about the logs.

On my last build (my current plane) the inspector was extremely thorough even making me crank the engine, taxi around, prove the brakes worked, and then he came and looked at the instruments to see that they all functioned (as well as could be observed from the ground). During the paperwork he didn't look at the logs but we had an extended conversation over weight & balance and the loading effects on CG. He had me do my calculations by hand to show that I could and to verify the information I had given earlier.

When I went later to the FSDO to get my repairman's certificate I had the logs and they went through them and asked questions at certain intervals as to what was being done & how. It was very clear that I had built it and could maintain it ...

 

[Lndwarrior]

I had zero problem with the Oakland FSDO. The guy barely looked at my build log. Never asked a question about it.

A large part had not been documented by the previous builder but it was a non-issue. I didn't bring it up and he didn't ask.

When it comes right down to it I don't really think they care very much. How are they going to prove it wasn't ammature built if it really comes down to it??

 

[kmacht]

You just need enough pictures and documentation to prove that an amateur built it and the work wasn’t hired out. Many keep very detailed logs and pictures of everything but it’s not really needed for the airworthiness inspection. The WAA has a checklist you can use if you are worried about the 50% rule.

The FSDO was much more interested in my logs and pictures for the repairman’s certificate. There, they are looking to make sure you know the airplane, engine, and systems inside and out. The more pictures you have of you doing the work the better. Pictures of finished parts mean nothing. Make sure you are visible in the pictures.

 

[AV8R_87]

I’d be more worried about how much of the finished needs to be re-done.

Yep. I've seen a few half-built projects that had to be completely rebuilt because the previous builder messed something up as they were losing interest in the build.
Mis-drilled rivet holes in fuselage stringers, requiring half of the fuselage skins be removed to replace two firewall to tail stringers.
Wing attachment fittings over-reamed by 1/64" which required spar replacement in a set of fully built wings.

I'd never buy someone else's half-built project, and I'd think twice before bying a complete E-AB built by someone else.

 

[donjohnston]

My question is this... What is the best way to document a build when you buy a E/AB kit project that was started but not completed by someone else? There are some build sheets, but not as much documentation or pictures as I would have taken if I were doing it myself. When it comes time for getting an airworthiness certificate, how much will need to be shown for stuff that was done prior to me. Do I need to disassemble some things and start the record keeping process over for what was done previously? From what I can see, the prior builder did a quality job at what was done. Not that it really matters, but the prior builder is deceased, so not really able to help with any of this.

Part of this is going to depend on the DAR. The one who did mine was not completely uninterested in any build logs. He said "I'm inspecting the airplane, not your picture taking and writing skills."

I heard the similar stories from builders who used the same DAR. But I also heard from other builders that their DAR did look over their build logs.

Now the FAA guy where I got my repairman's cert was different story. That guy looked over the printout of my build log and was not happy that there were only about 6 pictures of me working on the plane in the build log and how could I prove that I actually did the work (I did this at the FAA office at Sun-n-Fun). After I got the cert and was walking out it occurred to me that this would be good information for others so I asked one of the other examiners how many pictures of the builder working on the plane were preferred. He rolled his eyes and said that the guy I was dealing with was new. He said when looking over the build log and asking some questions about the construction of components and mechanisms that he will know pretty quick if the person built the plane.

So the answer is: It depends.

 

[Dana]

I'd never buy someone else's half-built project, and I'd think twice before bying a complete E-AB built by someone else.

You gotta know what you're looking at. I've bought 4 EABs and two ultralights built by other people. All but one of the EABs required a significant amount of work to make things right, but it wasn't that different from a standard airplane of comparable vintage and cost.

They all had between 300-600 hours of flight time when I bought them, so I could have a reasonable expectation that there was nothing really bad. Buying an unfinished project or low time bird requires some more diligence.

On the plus side, I could do all the work myself in my own way, rather than paying for an A&P and using expensive PMA parts.