CPL stuff: Private, Non-common, common carriage ... oof

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CerroTorre

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CerroTorre
Ok, my eyes start glazing over when I go down the rabbit hole on this stuff too. So I'm not exactly expecting this thread to garner much interest... =)

But, I'm trying to get down into the details on sort of one remaining category of the "when can I be hired to fly for hire" question. It gets murky when you drill down into it.

This revolves around the idea of selling your "pilot for hire" services. The idea of "holding out" for common carriage and private carriage, etc. is mostly clear. Those are questions about "operating" as an air carrier or commercial operator (mostly). So I get that I can't operate (i.e. provide the aircraft) and advertise as such. That's common carriage and requires compliance with 119, 121, and/or 135.

But the concept of advertising as a pilot for hire is where I get a little turned around. As I initially got into this, the implication was that there is a blanket restriction on advertising my services to the public. Period / full-stop. As I read further, that seems to only apply strictly to me if I am an "operator" (again - providing the aircraft). But the prohibition on advertising does NOT apply to me if I simply put out an advertisement (or make a facebook post) saying "I'm a pilot for hire - hire me". EXCEPT that now meets some parts of the definition of "common carriage" because I'm offering my services to the broad definition of "the public".

In other words, once I get my commercial certificate, when does "looking for a job" become "holding out" as a commercial operator (as long as I never provide the aircraft or have "operational authority" over the aircraft)? Does that simply never apply when I do not provide the aircraft - and am therefore not under 119? Could I approach various aircraft owners to hire me as their contracted pilot flying them around in their personal airplane? Can I advertise? Theoretically (however unlikely) signing contracts to fly for a bunch of families, each in their own, personal aircraft. All unrelated and just personal travel (or on flights "incidental to their business")?

Or am I just way off on how I'm reading that? Which I see as a possibility. Like I said, it's complicated and confusing. Any help appreciated!
 
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As expected ... :D;):D

As I'm wandering through all the definitions of Private carriage, Common Carriage, Non-common carriage, Direct Air Carrier, Commercial Operator, wet lease, dry lease, etc. ad nauseum ...

It quickly becomes easy to over-complicate things.

As I understand things, I can "do whatever I want" to the extent that I am just providing pilot services and no aircraft. Advertised or not.

K.I.S.S. applies - as usual. ;)
Just use the chart... [edit: actually … don’t use this chart. It’s been pointed out that it has a few errors in it. That’s what I get for assuming … and not verifying the chart :oops::)] https://global.discourse-cdn.com/bu...5ca079484ff5e7f033ffc1a7512c19dfbb45771a.jpeg
 
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The graph above pretty much covers it. You can advertise yourself all you want, as long as you don't also provide an aircraft. Anyone can hire you to fly their aircraft and you'll be fine. Once you provide both yourself and the aircraft, it becomes holding out and you need a 135.
 
I don’t believe that flow chart is correct with regard to Private Carriage in small airplanes not needing an operating certificate.

I’d also note that some of the 119(e) stuff requires a drug testing program.
 
Wait, hold up. Looking at that chart it says as long I don't advertise, and some acquaintances come to me and say take us to ABC, and I provide the plane, as long as I don't fly just ANYONE, and only specific people I'm pretty much good to go in a king Air or smaller?

Gotta be missing something here.
 
CerroTorre said:
As I initially got into this, the implication was that there is a blanket restriction on advertising my services to the public. Period / full-stop. As I read further, that seems to only apply strictly to me if I am an "operator" (again - providing the aircraft). But the prohibition on advertising does NOT apply to me if I simply put out an advertisement (or make a facebook post) saying "I'm a pilot for hire - hire me". EXCEPT that now meets some parts of the definition of "common carriage" because I'm offering my services to the broad definition of "the public".
Click to expand...

I think you've got it. You can't hold out (advertise) as a carrier, but you can hold out as a pilot all day long. You can post on facebook or message boards or whatever "hire me to fly your plane." You just can't post "hire me to take you to Chicago."


EdFred said:
Wait, hold up. Looking at that chart it says as long I don't advertise, and some acquaintances come to me and say take us to ABC, and I provide the plane, as long as I don't fly just ANYONE, and only specific people I'm pretty much good to go in a king Air or smaller?

Gotta be missing something here.
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I'm with you... The simplest example of that is a commercial pilot flying with their buddy to get a $100 hamburger. I was under the impression that was strictly private pilot rules, and the buddy couldn't pay. But the flow chart seems to act like it would be fine.
 
EdFred said:
Wait, hold up. Looking at that chart it says as long I don't advertise, and some acquaintances come to me and say take us to ABC, and I provide the plane, as long as I don't fly just ANYONE, and only specific people I'm pretty much good to go in a king Air or smaller?

Gotta be missing something here.
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On demand requires part 135 certificate. Doesn't matter if you advertise or not or whether you know the customer or not. Above situation describes an air taxi.
 
Witmo said:
On demand requires part 135 certificate. Doesn't matter if you advertise or not or whether you know the customer or not. Above situation describes an air taxi.
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The flow chart indicates otherwise. It differentiates between common carriage (can't discriminate) and contract.
 
The path in red would indicate that if there is a prior agreement in place, it's Part 91. I'm not sure how they get there. This muddies my understanding more than clarifying it.

5ca079484ff5e7f033ffc1a7512c19dfbb45771a.jpeg
 
CerroTorre said:
Just use the chart... https://global.discourse-cdn.com/bu...5ca079484ff5e7f033ffc1a7512c19dfbb45771a.jpeg
Click to expand...

Most people would agree the flowchart is wrong. A pilot supplying an aircraft together with his or her piloting services would almost always be considered a commercial operator.

14 CFR 1.1:
Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

Anyone who is by the above definition a commercial operator not exempted by 119.1(e) requires an operating certificate.
 
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dmspilot said:
Most people would agree the flowchart is wrong. A pilot supplying an aircraft together with his or her piloting services would almost always be considered a commercial operator.

14 CFR 1.1:
Commercial operator means a person who, for compensation or hire, engages in the carriage by aircraft in air commerce of persons or property, other than as an air carrier or foreign air carrier or under the authority of Part 375 of this title. Where it is doubtful that an operation is for “compensation or hire”, the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit.

Anyone who is by the above definition a commercial operator not exempted by 119.1(e) requires an operating certificate.
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If anything, that muddies it more for me. Again, I always believed that the person joining you for a $100 hamburger theoretically couldn't pay more than their pro rata share. This quote, on the other hand, makes me think that if you were planning on going to lunch anyway, and then the other person agreed to pay 100% of costs, maybe you're good to go. It's definitely not a "major enterprise for profit."

(For the record, my belief is still that you probably can't do that, but I'd previously believed it was a well-known rule; now I'm not so sure.)
 
mcmanigle said:
If anything, that muddies it more for me. Again, I always believed that the person joining you for a $100 hamburger theoretically couldn't pay more than their pro rata share. This quote, on the other hand, makes me think that if you were planning on going to lunch anyway, and then the other person agreed to pay 100% of costs, maybe you're good to go. It's definitely not a "major enterprise for profit."

(For the record, my belief is still that you probably can't do that, but I'd previously believed it was a well-known rule; now I'm not so sure.)
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You need to not mix and match rules. 61.113 gives specific privileges to a Private Pilot regarding compensation.

The Commercial Operator definition is talking about operating “for profit”, which is distinctly different from “at a profit”.
 
EdFred said:
The flow chart indicates otherwise. It differentiates between common carriage (can't discriminate) and contract.
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The actions by the FAA does not differentiate. Private carriage requires a Part 135 certificate. The best example is the "flight department company." That's a situation in which a corporation creates a wholly owned subsidiary to provide flight services to one and only one customer - its owner. Can't be anything more "private carriage" than that. The FAA's view is that the company has one purpose - providing aircraft and pilots - and therefore needs one of these.
upload_2022-10-25_17-2-49.png
 
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FWIW, I've posted this a few times. Some have reported it was helpful.

Commercial Pilots and Commercial Operators
This is the way I teach it. It works better one-on-one since there are always questions, but FWIW, here goes...

The single most important thing to learn is, there is a difference between the privileges of a commercial "pilot" certificate and the requirements for engaging in a commercial "operation." If you fly for compensation, you are exercising a "commercial pilot" privilege. If you provide both pilot and airplane to transport other people or their property for compensation, you are engaged in a "commercial operation."

To give simple examples, if you are hired as a corporate pilot to fly a company airplane or to ferry someone else's airplane, you are only providing them commercial "pilot" services. Their airplane; your services. OTOH, if you take your C182 and start doing air tours or start flying your neighbors to their vacation spots, you are engaged in a commercial "operation."

Get that difference, and you are way ahead of most in understanding this stuff.

From there, move to FAR 119.1(e). Most commercial "operations" (providing aircraft and pilot) require an operating certificate of some type. Might be Part 135 (charter and some smaller airlines), 121 (the big airlines), but some kind of operating certificate. FAR 119.1(e) is a list of commercial"operations" that do not require an operating certificate. That "air tour?" 119.1(e) says, "no operating certificate required," although there are some other requirements. Transporting that cargo? There is no 119.1(e) exception, so you need an operating certificate.

There are two other, related, concepts you need to understand. One is the difference between "common" and "private" carriage. "Carriage" just means providing airplane and pilot for transporting persons or property. "Common" means offered to the public, or, as the FAA puts it, a segment of the public. "Private" means only with a very select few.

The difference between the two is the other important concept - "holding out." I mention it last because It's always used as though it is some evil thing. But all it really means is "letting people know." "Holding out" makes it "public."

If all that leaves you thinking the lines are blurry, you are right. After all, how does anyone know you are available to transport them in "private" carriage unless you let them know? The reality is, it's so blurry, it doesn't make any practical difference. The fact that "carriage" is private does not mean you can do it with just a commercial pilot certificate. FAR 119.23 says "private" carriage requires an operating certificate, with some exceptions. Operating certificates for "noncommon" or private carriage are also mentioned in 119.5. There is even a sample of a private carriage Part 135 certificate in FSIMS (reproduced here - http://midlifeflight.net/posted/PrivateCarriageOpCert.png)

Bottom line, public or private, if you provide airplane and pilot for a purpose other than one listed in 119.1(e) , you need some kind of operating certificate. But you still have to understand the difference because it gets tested.

I wouldn't worry too much about more than understanding and being able to apply these basics - (1) your privileges are as a commercial pilot; (2) they don't automatically allow you to engage in a commercial operation; and (3) there needs to be some specific regulatory authority to engage in a commercial "operation," such as one of the activities permitted by 119.1(e) or under a Part 135 operating certificate.

Yeah, I know. It's complicated. That's why lawyers get paid big bucks to draft things like leases between a parent company and its 100%-owned subsidiary that does nothing but provide flight services only to its parent company - abut as "private cariage" as you can get. it's designed to prevent the subsidiary from being treated as a Part 135 operation.

Fortunately, it's mostly about understanding the basics such as, "does your commercial certificate allow you to take your neighbor and his family to their vacation destination in an airplane you own or rent and be paid for it? The answer is no since that would be a commercial "operation" and require a Part 135 operating certificate. Truth is, most DPEs don't understand more than the basics either.
 
mcmanigle said:
If anything, that muddies it more for me. Again, I always believed that the person joining you for a $100 hamburger theoretically couldn't pay more than their pro rata share. This quote, on the other hand, makes me think that if you were planning on going to lunch anyway, and then the other person agreed to pay 100% of costs, maybe you're good to go. It's definitely not a "major enterprise for profit."

(For the record, my belief is still that you probably can't do that, but I'd previously believed it was a well-known rule; now I'm not so sure.)
Click to expand...

A private pilot has more rules to worry about than just making sure not to be a commercial operator.

edit: Actually, though it is more strict, in a way it could be said that it's actually fewer rules. Adhere to the privileges and limitations of a private pilot in 61.113 then you won't need to worry about whether you're a commercial operator or not.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
FWIW, I've posted this a few times. Some have reported it was helpful.

Commercial Pilots and Commercial Operators
This is the way I teach it. It works better one-on-one since there are always questions, but FWIW, here goes...

The single most important thing to learn is, there is a difference between the privileges of a commercial "pilot" certificate and the requirements for engaging in a commercial "operation." If you fly for compensation, you are exercising a "commercial pilot" privilege. If you provide both pilot and airplane to transport other people or their property for compensation, you are engaged in a "commercial operation."

To give simple examples, if you are hired as a corporate pilot to fly a company airplane or to ferry someone else's airplane, you are only providing them commercial "pilot" services. Their airplane; your services. OTOH, if you take your C182 and start doing air tours or start flying your neighbors to their vacation spots, you are engaged in a commercial "operation."

Get that difference, and you are way ahead of most in understanding this stuff.

From there, move to FAR 119.1(e). Most commercial "operations" (providing aircraft and pilot) require an operating certificate of some type. Might be Part 135 (charter and some smaller airlines), 121 (the big airlines), but some kind of operating certificate. FAR 119.1(e) is a list of commercial"operations" that do not require an operating certificate. That "air tour?" 119.1(e) says, "no operating certificate required," although there are some other requirements. Transporting that cargo? There is no 119.1(e) exception, so you need an operating certificate.

There are two other, related, concepts you need to understand. One is the difference between "common" and "private" carriage. "Carriage" just means providing airplane and pilot for transporting persons or property. "Common" means offered to the public, or, as the FAA puts it, a segment of the public. "Private" means only with a very select few.

The difference between the two is the other important concept - "holding out." I mention it last because It's always used as though it is some evil thing. But all it really means is "letting people know." "Holding out" makes it "public."

If all that leaves you thinking the lines are blurry, you are right. After all, how does anyone know you are available to transport them in "private" carriage unless you let them know? The reality is, it's so blurry, it doesn't make any practical difference. The fact that "carriage" is private does not mean you can do it with just a commercial pilot certificate. FAR 119.23 says "private" carriage requires an operating certificate, with some exceptions. Operating certificates for "noncommon" or private carriage are also mentioned in 119.5. There is even a sample of a private carriage Part 135 certificate in FSIMS (reproduced here - http://midlifeflight.net/posted/PrivateCarriageOpCert.png)

Bottom line, public or private, if you provide airplane and pilot for a purpose other than one listed in 119.1(e) , you need some kind of operating certificate. But you still have to understand the difference because it gets tested.

I wouldn't worry too much about more than understanding and being able to apply these basics - (1) your privileges are as a commercial pilot; (2) they don't automatically allow you to engage in a commercial operation; and (3) there needs to be some specific regulatory authority to engage in a commercial "operation," such as one of the activities permitted by 119.1(e) or under a Part 135 operating certificate.

Yeah, I know. It's complicated. That's why lawyers get paid big bucks to draft things like leases between a parent company and its 100%-owned subsidiary that does nothing but provide flight services only to its parent company - abut as "private cariage" as you can get. it's designed to prevent the subsidiary from being treated as a Part 135 operation.

Fortunately, it's mostly about understanding the basics such as, "does your commercial certificate allow you to take your neighbor and his family to their vacation destination in an airplane you own or rent and be paid for it? The answer is no since that would be a commercial "operation" and require a Part 135 operating certificate. Truth is, most DPEs don't understand more than the basics either.
Click to expand...
I like the clarification of “pilot” vs “operation”. That slips through the cracks a lot in these discussions, but as convoluted as the regs often seem, the words really do mean something.
 
dmspilot said:
Most people would agree the flowchart is wrong. A pilot supplying an aircraft together with his or her piloting services would almost always be considered a commercial operator.
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It even starts wrong. The very first bubble seems to say that if you don't get money, there is no compensation.

upload_2022-10-26_7-24-3.png

and, as the FAA has taken pains to point out, receiving a share of expenses is compensation. An exception, not a redefinition.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I like the clarification of “pilot” vs “operation”. That slips through the cracks a lot in these discussions, but as convoluted as the regs often seem, the words really do mean something.
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Thanks. I don't think one can understand this stuff on anything more than a rote basis ("they told me I can't do this but I don't know why") without understanding that distinction.
 
I feel like the "only by contract" arrow is there for the 134.5 guys.
 
Thanks all for the discussion and for pointing out the errors in the chart. I’ve updated the OP to reflect the fact that there are issues with it. That’s what I get for assuming and not verifying prior to posting it. Dummy. :)

At least I think my basic understanding of the primary differences between pilots and operators being the crux of applying the rules is taking me in the right direction. Good additional discussion here.
 
I think you can advertise your pilot services any way you want, as long as the ad says "BYOA."
 
I attempted to "fix" the flow chart. Can anyone find any errors or have any suggestions?


Commercial Flow Chart.jpg
 
[mention]EdFred [/mention]. Oh, wait; this isn’t a PIC discussion.

Never mind.
 
Doc Holliday said:
That chart is bogus.
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Yup.
MarkLindsey said:
I attempted to "fix" the flow chart. Can anyone find any errors or have any suggestions?
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The difference between 121 and 135 is not scheduled vs. unscheduled (on-demand). And there's nothing about part 125 or 91 sub K at all.

Of course, actually covering all of this would make for a really gnarly flowchart. It'd probably be better as an interactive web tool or something.
 
MarkLindsey said:
Challenge accepted. Any further critiques are appreciated.View attachment 135330
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Sorry, I haven't got past the first right-hand bubble where you are requiring a third class medical for activities which may be done with BasicMed.

I have a bias against trying to use a flowchart for things which are more complex. They are kind of like mnemonics - a way to avoid learning rather than an assist to understanding.
 
This flow chart is meant to help commercial pilot students navigate the maze of for hire and compensation rules. It is not intended to be an exhaustive resource. The student should follow 14 CFR Chapter 1 and use this chart as a guide to direct their attention to the appropriate parts. I appreciate the feedback.
Commercial Flow Chart.jpg
 
MarkLindsey said:
This flow chart is meant to help commercial pilot students navigate the maze of for hire and compensation rules. It is not intended to be an exhaustive resource. The student should follow 14 CFR Chapter 1 and use this chart as a guide to direct their attention to the appropriate parts. I appreciate the feedback.
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Mark,

For commercial students, it might be more helpful to put all of the operations where an air carrier certificate is required into one box labeled "Get a job at an air carrier" with a short list of what the various types of certificates are for, and put in some more boxes for things that newly certified commercial pilots can actually do themselves, like 91.147 sightseeing rides, instructing (and what "for hire" means in the context of 100-hour inspections), aerial work operations, etc.

Nobody is going to be able to take their fresh commercial certificate and go out and start their own air carrier, and they'll need to be trained in these operations by someone else in either case.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Mark,

For commercial students, it might be more helpful to put all of the operations where an air carrier certificate is required into one box labeled "Get a job at an air carrier" with a short list of what the various types of certificates are for, and put in some more boxes for things that newly certified commercial pilots can actually do themselves, like 91.147 sightseeing rides, instructing (and what "for hire" means in the context of 100-hour inspections), aerial work operations, etc.

Nobody is going to be able to take their fresh commercial certificate and go out and start their own air carrier, and they'll need to be trained in these operations by someone else in either case.
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Agreed…the context here is “what can you do with a Commercial certificate (assuming you pass the checkride.)” you’ve got “stuff you can do” and “stuff you can’t do” as the major divisions.
 
Why is BasicMd listed as a medical "waiver"?
MauleSkinner said:
Agreed…the context here is “what can you do with a Commercial certificate (assuming you pass the checkride.)” you’ve got “stuff you can do” and “stuff you can’t do” as the major divisions.
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I’m still waiting to hear of a commercial applicant quizzed on the flight department company rules :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why is BasicMd listed as a medical "waiver"?

I’m still waiting to hear of a commercial applicant quizzed on the flight department company rules :D
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Perhaps exemption would be better?

Also, I think a big picture aspect of the chart is that a commercial pilot can hold out and still fly part 91, and having your friend pay all the flight expenses of an aircraft in which I have operational control to get the $500 cheeseburger needs a 135 certificate. I am scheduled to take my Commercial practical (300 hours pilot, 3000 hours as flight crew) and stumbled upon this chart. There were several commenters that said the chart was incorrect. My main goal was to make it correct so I could use it to study and perhaps others could too. Of all of the flow charts or attempts to make the rules easy to follow, this chart was the best starting place. I changed nearly every block. My request is to point out errors or important things that are missing. 91K seems too far into the weeds, but I put a callout in the chart. I believe the DPE wants me to have a solid understanding of privileges verse operations and what the chart has currently is sufficient for that. Thoughts?

Lastly, I do not have the original flow chart. All of the changes are made in MS paint and I am limited as such.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
And, quite frankly, anything 121-related requires an ATP anyway.
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Another interesting flowchart would be what you need each cert for, and what other requirements there are, for various types of flying. Airlines aren't the only reason you'd need an ATP, and 135 has experience requirements in addition to certificate requirements.
 
2 questions - if my neighbor wants a ride to the beach in my airplane, can he pay me if he takes pics on the way (say he has a side gig)?

Also - what if I’m in a partnership with a non-pilot. If he pays me to fly him do we need a certificate?
 
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