DOGE and the FAA

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Jim_R said:
Yup. "Private enterprise will always do it better" is a fallacy. Example: https://www.sfgate.com/california-p...ctor-aramark-endangered-visitors-19449430.php
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Some years ago New Jersey "privatized" all of the motor vehicle offices in the name of cost cutting. It was such a disaster that 10 years or so later they took them back... and had to rehire all the state employees that the private contractor didn't hire or let go during the transition... at the pay level and seniority they would have had if they'd stayed there. My ex sister in law (a typical DMV employee if there ever was one :rolleyes:) was one of those, left as a low ranking clerk, came back as a well paid senior manager.

Be careful what you wish for...
 
Bob Noel said:
incomplete picture... missing federal revenues, the cost of paying interest on the debt, and throw in the extra borrowing costs for everyone else because of the total debt.
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Second graphic. Federal outlays Interest as % of GDP.
 
Half Fast said:
Bad idea if your objective is to redecorate; possibly reasonable if your objective is to clear off the lot and rebuild.
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Although burning the house down would be a foolish way to do either, at least in both cases there was an objective to the burning that related to improving the house. But if there isn’t even a concept of a plan about what it should look like at the end, then it’s just vandalism.
Bob Noel said:
it's already political and has been so for many posts. however, there are some that are focused on the original purpose of the thread
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It definitely started as political with the first post. The first word of the title, actually.

As for staying on the OP topic, given that DOGE is ostensibly supposed to be about government efficiency with the intent of reducing the Federal budget, all the talk about Class 3 medicals and other wish-list changes to the regs is equally off topic, it would seem: those are negligibly related to the FAA budget per se, I’d think.

Add: while eliminating Class 3’s doesn’t seem like a credible issue under the scope of DOGE, something like cutting the manned trip to Mars clearly is and should be on the table for consideration. Will it be? :dunno:
 
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Llewtrah381 said:
Although burning the house down would be a foolish way to do either, at least in both cases there was an objective to the burning that related to improving the house. But if there isn’t even a concept of a plan about what it should look like at the end, then it’s just vandalism.

It definitely started as political with the first post. The first word of the title, actually.

As for staying on the OP topic, given that DOGE is ostensibly supposed to be about government efficiency with the intent of reducing the Federal budget, all the talk about Class 3 medicals and other wish-list changes to the regs is equally off topic, it would seem: those are negligibly related to the FAA budget per se, I’d think.

Add: while eliminating Class 3’s doesn’t seem like a credible issue under the scope of DOGE, something like cutting the manned trip to Mars clearly is and should be on the table for consideration. Will it be? :dunno:
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They are because they are laws but maybe we can reduce the red tape crap that makes making changes years and decades with more efficiency ? One can hope!
 
Dana said:
Some years ago New Jersey "privatized" all of the motor vehicle offices in the name of cost cutting. It was such a disaster that 10 years or so later they took them back... and had to rehire all the state employees that the private contractor didn't hire or let go during the transition... at the pay level and seniority they would have had if they'd stayed there. My ex sister in law (a typical DMV employee if there ever was one :rolleyes:) was one of those, left as a low ranking clerk, came back as a well paid senior manager.

Be careful what you wish for...
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Oh yes, brilliant government employees with their well known work ethic and staggering efficiency save the day from evil private profiteers ….hehehehe
 
Warmi said:
Oh yes, brilliant government employees with their well known work ethic and staggering efficiency save the day from evil private profiteers ….hehehehe
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It’s blanket statements like these that I personally consider “political” since they seem to be promoting a particular agenda - but YMMV.

So…military, police, fire fighters, FAA controllers - all “brilliant government employees” (and none working for stock shares or 7-figure salaries) are all part of this sarcastic assessment?
 
jbarrass said:
I don't think the real doctors ever get hung up over a 40-year old traffic offense or a childhood prescription for a specific drug . Same with tests and diagnoses that are possible disqualifiers for FAA medicals. A real doctor doing an actual exam could use the same professional judgement that allows you to do many things. These are examples of the bureaucratic overreach they are looking to eliminate.

This is a feature, not a bug.
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Re-read the law again- how in the world is examination of ones anus or noting tattoo location and type indicative of piloting ability? Whoever wrote this into the law was an imbecile.
 
Dana said:
Some years ago New Jersey "privatized" all of the motor vehicle offices in the name of cost cutting. It was such a disaster that 10 years or so later they took them back... and had to rehire all the state employees that the private contractor didn't hire or let go during the transition... at the pay level and seniority they would have had if they'd stayed there. My ex sister in law (a typical DMV employee if there ever was one :rolleyes:) was one of those, left as a low ranking clerk, came back as a well paid senior manager.

Be careful what you wish for...
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It obviously depends greatly on how the privatization was set up and handled. When we moved to OK years ago, we were surprised to see that all of the "Tag Agencies" were privatized. This is where you renew your driver's license, get license plates, handle the paperwork for the private sale of a car, etc. Everywhere else I've lived it has been a government facility, and absolutely horrible.

But I was, and still am, very pleasantly surprised that this system works pretty well here. I don't think I have ever spent more than 5 or 10 minutes in one of them, doing any of the things listed above.

Now, there are still a few reasons we have to go to the actual DMV every once in a while (like for my daughter's first driver's license), which was the stereotypical abysmal government experience. But for everyday stuff they've done it right.
 
One thing about shifting directions every 4 years- a friend is a very high level NASA guy- he complains because their projects are typically 10+ year projects, that get re-worked or cancelled or goals changed with every new administration which massively reduces efficiency.
 
I recently had a situation where I needed to meet with an FAA official to process some paperwork that could not be handled by a DPE, DAR, DER or DME. I tried numerous times to schedule an appointment with the FSDO in my town and was constantly quoted 6+ month wait with the recommendation that I get with a DPE or DME to handle this for me. After telling them that I needed to get clarification on how to fill out a form (ruse) I was allowed to speak with someone directly. Once speaking directly to the FAA official, I explained that I had already spoken with a DPE, DAR, DER and DME and none had been able to process this paperwork for me. We made an appointment to meet a few days later and I arrived at the FSDO.

The FSDO occupied thousands of square feet of premium office space in a high end commercial office building with lavish interior. I pressed the buzzer for entry and the speaker asked my name and who I was there to meet. I gave the information requested and the door buzzed open shortly thereafter. I entered a large reception area with one person behind the glass shielded counter. They gave me directions on how to navigate to my examiner and I walked past dozens of unoccupied offices (complete with computer systems and paraphernalia, but no humans). I finally reached my appointment and he was a super nice and knowledgeable guy and we were able to speak at a personal level. Once I handed over the paperwork, and he examined and approved it, I asked him what was the deal with this office? He claimed that, since COVID, all of the staff works remotely 95% of the time and only come into the office when they are unable to delegate the work to a DPE, DME or other outside contractor. He claimed that he only comes into the FSDO a few hours per month and that usually the receptionist is the only person in the entire office. On this day, he and the receptionist were the only 2 people in the entire office, and he claimed this was the norm. NOBODY can enter the FSDO without a scheduled appointment with a specific person to see what I saw. I asked if that was exclusive to this FSDO and he laughed and said that it was the norm for all of them in this area. I can confirm this because I had tried to make appointments with other offices (hours away) and was met with the same 6+ month wait and recommendation that I search for a DPE or DME to handle my request. The FAA staff are not required to do their work, since the vast majority can be delegated to a private contractor (DPE, DAR, etc.) and they get paid for their effort where the FAA employees still get paid for not doing the work. It is a win/win proposition. When the FAA people decide to retire, they just become DPE, DME whatever and collect fees while collecting their pensions. I have nothing against the people themselves, they are just taking advantage of a broken system, the rules that allow this are the problem. Any time that an organization is "self-policing" without outside oversight, things like this can happen.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Add: while eliminating Class 3’s doesn’t seem like a credible issue under the scope of DOGE, something like cutting the manned trip to Mars clearly is and should be on the table for consideration. Will it be? :dunno:
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I suspect the major findings of DOGE will be a recommendation for reduced regulations on:

1. Private space companies
2. Electric cars
3. Social media companies

Ron Wanttaja
 
While it's true about working remotely. Some days are computer work from home. Then there are requirements for either field work or come to the office work. Most of the maintenance inspectors choose the field option vs office.
 
Re the FSDO described above, the San Jose FSDO had the same level of security. I could see that for an ATC facility, but it’s ridiculous for a FSDO. What’s a terrorist going to do there? Extend the registration date on his plane? Reschedule a checkride? Worst case, assign a bunch of new DPEs and clear out the backlog?
 
Velocity26 said:
NOBODY can enter the FSDO without a scheduled appointment with a specific person to see what I saw.
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For a little context, the appointments and secure lobby go back farther to the OK City bombing almost 30 years ago. Before that you could walk in the door, wave to the receptionist and head direct to the person(s) office you wanted to see.

And as you note not all FSDOs are created equal. However there still are a number of them that provide the required services when needed in a timely fashion.

But what I'm more curious about is what type paperwork you needed completed that would require contacting such a unique grouping of Designees?

ateamer said:
Worst case, assign a bunch of new DPEs and clear out the backlog?
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Assigning Designees is not as simple as picking up the phone calling in a few. Besides each Designee requires an FAA mentor who oversees a the Designees work. In some FSDOs there are not enough ASIs to handle more Designees.
 
Bell206 said:
For a little context, the appointments and secure lobby go back farther to the OK City bombing almost 30 years ago. Before that you could walk in the door, wave to the receptionist and head direct to the person(s) office you wanted to see.

And as you note not all FSDOs are created equal. However there still are a number of them that provide the required services when needed in a timely fashion.

But what I'm more curious about is what type paperwork you needed completed that would require contacting such a unique grouping of Designees?
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I can tell you that, before COVID, you could walk into my local FSDO and they had full staff in the office and ask to speak with someone without an appointment. During COVID they went home and never came back.

I read someone thinking on getting a common Check Ride from an examiner at the FSDO, the only chance of that happening in my area is if you are requesting reinstatement after a suspension or revocation, otherwise you are given a link to the local DPEs.

The FAA has developed an online portal where DPE, DME, DAR, DER, etc. can process paperwork for common processes that they do everyday. Certain, less common, processes do not have a portal that they can use, and require that they have an internal FAA Rep process the paperwork. When I received my certificate of completion from an accredited school for a specific Repairman Certificate that did not have a portal created, that necessitated an FAA rep to process the paperwork and request that the Certificate be issued. He gave me a temporary Cert and I received my card in the mail a few weeks later. That hard part is getting to speak with someone that understood the limitations of the online system and did not think I was simply trying to avoid paying a contractor to do it for me.
 
Flyhound said:
Be careful what you wish for. Canada still doesn't recognize Basic Med, so getting rid of the 3rd Class medical would stop a LOT of pilots from being able to fly into Canada.
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Agreed. Eliminating 3rd class medical is not without consequence.
For public benefit flying, most VPO (volunteer pilot organizations) require a 3rd class or better for patient-carrying missions (e.g. Compassion/Angel Flight).
Without 3rd class medical, volunteer (g.a.) pilots would require more frequent visits to AME (and cost), for a 2nd class (with corresponding reduced validity period).

Suggestions to modify 3rd class, or make it optional, or not required prior to BasicMed; understood.
But eliminating 3rd class medicals; not ideal.
(especially absent downstream changes: VPO requirements, cross-border ops, insurance implications, etc.)
 
midwestpa24 said:
Just a couple of points from my vantage.

As much as we want 3rd class medicals to go away, until you get buy-in for Basic med from other countries you just can't. Would be better to overhaul the medical system to remove so much of the bureaucracy, but that applies to 99% of the Federal government.

I've seen a lot of discussion regarding DOGE and looking for wasteful spending. But the examples I've seen revolve around money spent on things I think everyone agrees is ridiculous, ex. $200,000 to research mating habits of butterflies in Cambodia, $500,000 to investigate transgender monkeys in Peru, etc. We've always heard of these wasteful spending items getting buried in bills, yet they still continue.
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My mind goes to the radiotelephone operator permit and radio station license requirements that exist for international flying (ARROW) but not for US flying. In some countries, you have to demonstrate that you actually know things about radio theory/rules in order to obtain those licenses. In the US, the FCC will simply give you a non-expiring “license” to print out at home in exchange for a nominal application fee. You can then keep it in your wallet/aircraft/whatever to show the authorities in a foreign country. I would love it if the 3rd class medical turned into something like this, or if it simply turned into a process of demonstrating that you still hold a driver’s license every X years.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
It’s blanket statements like these that I personally consider “political” since they seem to be promoting a particular agenda - but YMMV.

So…military, police, fire fighters, FAA controllers - all “brilliant government employees” (and none working for stock shares or 7-figure salaries) are all part of this sarcastic assessment?
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It's a generalization. As such, it is true most of the time, but not always.
On the other hand:
- racist cops are one of the main reasons we continue to have racial tensions, yet they cannot be fired.
- the education system has failed this country, yet there is nothing we are doing about it.
- some firefighters (the chiefs) received multi-$100K pensions for life, guaranteed. Not good for the tax payer.
Overall, I have no complaints about the firefighters, ATC or the military personnel.
Just my 2 cents.
 
wanttaja said:
I suspect the major findings of DOGE will be a recommendation for reduced regulations on:

1. Private space companies
2. Electric cars
3. Social media companies
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I'm shocked that you would suggest such a thing... :eek:
Velocity26 said:
I can tell you that, before COVID, you could walk into my local FSDO and they had full staff in the office and ask to speak with someone without an appointment. During COVID they went home and never came back.
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Around here, the FSDO was locked down over 10 years ago when I had to visit them a couple of times while dealing with homebuilt airplane paperwork.
 
Dana said:
Around here, the FSDO was locked down over 10 years ago when I had to visit them a couple of times while dealing with homebuilt airplane paperwork.
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No offense, but a lot of things are "locked down" in the northern big cities, that are not in Florida.
 
Wagondriver said:
I never realized just how blue this forum was.
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Nah. Everyone sees themselves as more persecuted than the next guy, and it's easy to label anyone on a different part of the political spectrum than themselves as a radical. It's like George Carlin said - "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
 
Wagondriver said:
I never realized just how blue this forum was.
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lulz, you're gonna fail your color contrast test on your next medical. This place is a crimson echo chamber. In fairness to the place, all affluent-centering message boards tend to be.

Further to your point, this place codes as slightly underrepresented from that norm, only due to not having more military and airline pilot participation.

I love the color purple, this place ain't it, but it's the closest I've ever got to it, given my occupation and recreational preferences. Which is why I spend the most amount of time contributing here, compared to the type or mil/airline specific forums.
 
hindsight2020 said:
lulz, you're gonna fail your color contrast test on your next medical.
…
I love the color purple, this place ain't it, but it's the closest I've ever got to it.
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I generally don’t share my opinion on politics because that’s amateur hour in the broader context of governance, but I’d agree with that statement.

My degrees are in government and international relations and I didn’t do the extra credit at ACSC for the m-word.
 
Back to FAA and DOGE. One point of maybe success is the airport review process. I have gone through three of them, and all were done by private contractors, worked for the FAA in the inspection biz. In all three cases, the inspector was on time, and spent the right amount of time at the field, and discussed the right kind of stuff. They do a master record review of the data there, and then we do our walk about and see what can be improved, and what is ok as is. There was no pressure to 'red X' any feature, or attempt to shut down ops at the airport. There were a few suggestions and we chatted about how to make it better at a reasonable cost.

I consider the time spent, and the work done to be of value, however I don't know what the private guy charges the FAA for an inspection. I received a written report after the job was done, and the master records were updated within 2 cycles.

There are places where the FAA is doing things right. I also consider the Lockheed takeover of most FSS services to be moderately efficient. They don't like it that I don't have an 'account' and I make a point of asking each time if an account is required to operate in the Natl Airspace System. Of course, it is not. Then I get my standard briefing, ignore all the NOTAMs and go about my flight.

I'm sure there is money to be saved at the FAA, but it's a pimple on the ass of many other federal operations that can see massive improvements in efficiency. Sad about the FSDO office staffing and empty buildings. One thing that could go a long way for DOGE to improve is provide a user public interface where the people of the nation could report stuff like the empty acres of FSDO office space. That stuff is on a lease, most likely annual and would be an easy target to just send a notice to quit at the end of the lease. These kinds of things are done in the biz world constantly, but I'm sure in the FAA way, there are 30 meetings, and 18 sessions, with 74 people to decide to close down one leased building, so it never gets done.
 
my two cents: go to zero based budgets. every two years you need to justify your funding.... and get rid of the 'use it or lose it's mentality. When I worked with NAVSISA every year they would move servers. That meant contractors had to be brought is the move servers and rearranging cubicles. Why? It was in the budget. If they didn't spend it on 'updating' facilities they would lose it. This was a $75-100k line item that did nothing more and make busy work.
 
Velocity26 said:
When I received my certificate of completion from an accredited school for a specific Repairman Certificate that did not have a portal created, that necessitated an FAA rep to process the paperwork and request that the Certificate be issued.
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Interesting. But Designees are limited to specific functions hence my question. But why contact a DER? Is this for a LSA repairman?
 
Bell206 said:
Interesting. But Designees are limited to specific functions hence my question. But why contact a DER? Is this for a LSA repairman?
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I initially contacted a DME and they tried, but failed to process the paperwork. They claimed they did not have options for that online and gave me the numbers of others but everyone tried and failed. I called the FAA in Washington DC and, after passing through several hands, was told that the online portal was not able to process that cert at this time and I would need to visit my FSDO to get it filed. Once I was able to speak to the gentleman in the FSDO, he was aware of the situation and said that he would process it internally. He stated that they were aware of, and working on, the issue but it was the situation at the time.

And yes, LSRI Cert.
 
pfarber said:
my two cents: go to zero based budgets. every two years you need to justify your funding.... and get rid of the 'use it or lose it's mentality.
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Agree with the last half, not so much with the one before it. In my career in the space industry I worked only one program that took less than two years from start to launch. It was a set of microsatellites, each smaller than a box of Kleenex.
1731862277494.png

Everything else was multiyear, from two and a half years to ten plus years in the case of the Space Station. Would not have been possible to drop everything every two years to re-justify the program; there's no advantage in cutting a decade-long development program into two-year chunks. If you want efficiency, you need stability.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Considering what we have here in the US, in regards to General Aviation and compared to any other country in the world, I wouldn't want some dogey commission (let alone one led by Elon Musk) going at it with a machete and creating havoc. Despite the "red tape" you can't go anywhere else and do the stuff we get to do here.
 
Velocity26 said:
And yes, LSRI Cert.
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Did a quick check to see if any designee has possible privileges or function code to issue an LSRI but found none. So your only option to issue the certificate appears to have been just an FSDO airworthiness ASI. Same for the other types of repairman cert.
 
Silvaire said:
Considering what we have here in the US, in regards to General Aviation and compared to any other country in the world, I wouldn't want some dogey commission (let alone one led by Elon Musk) going at it with a machete and creating havoc. Despite the "red tape" you can't go anywhere else and do the stuff we get to do here.
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Let him rip … the more the better, he has many decades of ever accumulating rules and regulations to go thru.


In the end , I doubt it will happen - the bureaucracy always wins in the end - but I wish him well.
 
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