Update on Catalina Baron crash

See post #7.
Consider the aspects of what the airport manager was dealing with. It is well known that the airport closes at sunset. It is well known that there are no accommodations at or near the airport. There are no aircraft maintenance faculties at the airport. The pilot brings in an airplane with known issues. It is over an hour drive to town and then an hour back again for him to get home on a twisty, dirt, mountain road with no lighting, with drop-offs at every turn, in the DARK with marine layer fog starting to build.
 
Why did they shut down both engines They knew they had a battery problem, they had a charger on board, and an extension cord.

This version does not have an attempt to repair the original aircraft, so simply shutting down the engine on the passenger door side should have been safe. Restarting that one engine, with the running engine keeping the battery topped up should have been successful.
 
Consider the aspects of what the airport manager was dealing with. It is well known that the airport closes at sunset. It is well known that there are no accommodations at or near the airport. There are no aircraft maintenance faculties at the airport. The pilot brings in an airplane with known issues. It is over an hour drive to town and then an hour back again for him to get home on a twisty, dirt, mountain road with no lighting, with drop-offs at every turn, in the DARK with marine layer fog starting to build.
…and the pilot “had to go and intended to depart anyway.” Not that he couldn’t stay overnight, didn’t have a ride into town, didn’t have maintenance, whatever. He “had to go.” Based on the (admittedly incomplete) information I have, I see no reason to believe that maintenance on the field and a free place to stay on the airport would have made a difference. The original instructor and students might have stayed overnight, but once the rescue mission was started, not departing that night doesn’t seem to have been an option.
 
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It’s a shame the airport manager didn’t take the two guys/gals home with him/her so the Baron could fly in safely the next day non-rushed. “You boys are out of daylight, no questions asked y’all are coming with me tonight“.
 
It’s a shame the airport manager didn’t take the two guys/gals home with him/her so the Baron could fly in safely the next day non-rushed. “You boys are out of daylight, no questions asked y’all are coming with me tonight“.
The airport manager lives part time in a house owned by the Catalina Island Conservancy and they are not allowed to take anyone to that house. It's employees only.
 
The airport manager lives part time in a house owned by the Catalina Island Conservancy and they are not allowed to take anyone to that house. It's employees only.

Conserving life trumps rules my man. I don’t blame him in anyway, those pilots are adults, but it sure would have been great to help them find shelter.
 
Alw
Conserving life trumps rules my man. I don’t blame him in anyway, those pilots are adults, but it sure would have been great to help them find shelter.
No one was going to die if they slept in the parked plane. It’s not that cold there.
 
So the difficutly is the difference between the percieved benefit of completing the mission vs the abstact risk of proceeding.

Anybody know what "PAVE" is? I used to think that was bull-____ but it's not. CFI's out there?
 
The fact that there didn’t seem to be a plan B or C and two extra people just went along for the ride anyway belies a pretty high level of hubris. And it’s pretty clear someone in that group had get-home-itis, whether it was the PIC or other. The reasons for that can range from the convenient (e.g. it’s cold/uncomfortable - and not everyone is young and/or lithe) to the mundane (I have to work in the morning) to emergent (I have medication I need to take, etc). Not that any of those should override good ADM (this is the “E” in PAVE) especially from the outset, but managing five people’s needs/expectations in that regard, especially considering the lack of space in the plane, is a lot harder than one or two or three.

Juan’s video led early with the premise of the magic credit card, but what if there’s nowhere to use it (which he kind of acknowledged later)? Flying to Catalina should be looked at in the same way you’d approach flying to a remote, unattended airstrip in the middle of the mountains or desert (which it kind of is) - there’s always a possibility that you’re not going to be able to take the plane back out when you planned.

I will say, though, that the conservancy, airport, etc, could increase education in this area. Many of us are just discovering some of these limitations in these very threads. There are plenty of backcountry airports in which pilots are made aware of the lack of services (sometimes having to read and sign a disclaimer). But Avalon is pretty high use, despite the risks, and I’m sure it’s not the first time poor ADM was deployed in a pressured rush to get out before you’re stranded. I don’t know if a PPR can/should be the way forward with a public-use airfield, but the absolute dearth of alternate, last-minute accommodation puts enough of a squeeze on things that maybe it should. Even a note as to such in the chart supplement could at minimum make a pilot better consider things.

Either way, pilots really need to put ourselves in this kind of situation and get imaginative with the scenarios, which include “no room at the inn,” and solution sets. There is definitely opportunity to make something good from this accident in using it as a training scenario and case study going forward.
 
The red flags were piling up pretty deep.

Why is it that someone who’s not the PIC has to prevent the PIC’s craptastic ADM?

Pilot error has been killing aviatiors, their pax, and the public since 1785.

 
…Flying to Catalina should be looked at in the same way you’d approach flying to a remote, unattended airstrip in the middle of the mountains or desert (which it kind of is) - there’s always a possibility that you’re not going to be able to take the plane back out when you planned...
Any time you land away from your home drome, whether planned or not, is an opportunity to be stranded; that condition is not limited to remote or unattended airstrips. It’s a risk every single time.
 
Any time you land away from your home drome, whether planned or not, is an opportunity to be stranded; that condition is not limited to remote or unattended airstrips. It’s a risk every single time.
Correct. However, some strips are more inherently arduous to find alternative accommodations than others. A simple walk into town for many, Uber, etc for others, stay in the FBO/“terminal” for yet more. But not at AVX. Thus, Juan’s point about the magic credit card, which suffices 99% of the time, but is mooted in this specific instance.
 
I will disagree with Blancolirio on the insufficient power to retract the gear. The gear motor isn't that powerful, and if the alt was putting out even modest amps on each side there's plenty of power to move the gear. The pos of the gear selector will tell the story, and that isn't in the prelim.

The ADSB data sort of supports my theory of pulling it off green, and holding it just above the runway. I don't think we're ever going to have a 'smoking gun' that points to some discrete, or coupled fault causing this one.

I'm going to offer another opinion here. Suppose they waited for daybreak. He'll have the same plane, same runway, same load, same power. Only diff is they will have better visibility to the west after daybreak. Might have made a difference, might not.
 
Again, all they had to do was call the sheriff to come "rescue" them. Sheriff's deputies would have taken them into town and help them find accommodations. If rooms were available at the last minute, I'm sure they wouldn't have to pay for a two-night minimum. If rooms were not available, they could have slept in the lobby of the sheriff's station...
 
In the morning the air would be cooler, and good visuals of the runway, rather than being invisible after the hump.

Both airplane and pilot performance should have been much better.

Places to sleep, the Casino runs all night, get an alcoholic drink, spill most of it on your handkerchief, and stick it in a shirt pocket. Find a chair or sofa, make yourself as comfortable as possible, and if anyone wakes you, pretend to be too drunk to walk to your room across town.

2 airplanes, 4 seat and 6 seat, and just 5 people. The air temperature there would not have been bad for sleeping, and the discomfort in aircraft seats is tolerable, been there done that.
 
@geezer is throwing out PRO moves here
the Casino runs all night, get an alcoholic drink, spill most of it on your handkerchief, and stick it in a shirt pocket. Find a chair or sofa, make yourself as comfortable as possible, and if anyone wakes you, pretend to be too drunk to walk to your room across town.
 
In the morning the air would be cooler, and good visuals of the runway, rather than being invisible after the hump.

Both airplane and pilot performance should have been much better.

Places to sleep, the Casino runs all night, get an alcoholic drink, spill most of it on your handkerchief, and stick it in a shirt pocket. Find a chair or sofa, make yourself as comfortable as possible, and if anyone wakes you, pretend to be too drunk to walk to your room across town.

2 airplanes, 4 seat and 6 seat, and just 5 people. The air temperature there would not have been bad for sleeping, and the discomfort in aircraft seats is tolerable, been there done that.
Ummmm, the Casino at the Island? - and how does he get there at 6:30pm, and you know it’s not a “casino” right?
 
RGB is undoubtedly right. I believe I remember a bar, but did not see actual gambling activity.

It has been over 30 years since I went there, and just spent one night. We spent half of that time at the airport talking to pilots.
 
Why did they shut down both engines They knew they had a battery problem, they had a charger on board, and an extension cord.

This version does not have an attempt to repair the original aircraft, so simply shutting down the engine on the passenger door side should have been safe. Restarting that one engine, with the running engine keeping the battery topped up should have been successful.
The accident airplane wasn't owned by the PIC. Per the Prelim, he borrowed the airplane from an acquaintance. May not have known there was a problem with it.

The fact that the airplane flew to AVX from SMO and then they couldn't get the right engine started leaves me with the impression there was more going on in the electrical system than just a weak battery (alternator/Voltage Regulator...etc).

After reading the prelim, the scenario that initially came to mind was raising the gear handle caused a catastrophic blackout. That would certainly explain the flight path and outcome.

Odd thing though is ADS-B kept transmitting after the airplane crossed the threshold so it still had power.
 
Question about the airfield. Is maneuvering off runway heading necessary to achieve terrain clearance on departure?
 
Conserving life trumps rules my man. I don’t blame him in anyway, those pilots are adults, but it sure would have been great to help them find shelter.
Who is to say the Airport Manager didn't offer to help?

Might have offered them a ride and the PIC refused. We don't know and honestly, I'm not sure that it matters other than as TCABM stated, when flying to an airport other than home base, there is always the possibility of being stranded. It's up to the PIC to make the decision on how to proceed if and when that happens.
 
Question about the airfield. Is maneuvering off runway heading necessary to achieve terrain clearance on departure?
No. You just don't want to go left.

When I last took off from AVX on that runway, it was day VFR. I recall intentionally not climbing and actually descending after departure to orbit the island around 500' offshore.
 
Conserving life trumps rules my man. I don’t blame him in anyway, those pilots are adults, but it sure would have been great to help them find shelter.

Uh, in most states a private individual cannot prevent another person doing much about leaving. That’s usually covered under unlawful detention or restraint.

Even when trespassing, all the reasonable force you want can be used to throw someone out, but you can’t keep them from leaving.
 
Wow, at night that would be the black hole of all black holes. Pilot's eyes were probably not yet adjusted to the dark as well. And I'll bet the panel lighting was bright, with several glass displays. He was completely blind the moment he crossed the departure threshold.

Could be as simple as he relaxed back pressure on the yoke and didn't have a horizon to cue him to the resulting descent.

Anyone have moon data? I fly along the Gulf coast often. Moon over the water makes a huge difference.
 
Wow, at night that would be the black hole of all black holes. Pilot's eyes were probably not yet adjusted to the dark as well. And I'll bet the panel lighting was bright, with several glass displays. He was completely blind the moment he crossed the departure threshold.

Could be as simple as he relaxed back pressure on the yoke and didn't have a horizon to cue him to the resulting descent.

Anyone have moon data? I fly along the Gulf coast often. Moon over the water makes a huge difference.
From Beech talk…
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
N 33° 24', W 118° 26'
2024-10-09
Zone: Universal Time
Time: 03:00
Altitude: 17.1°
Azimuth (E of N): 215.3°
Fraction Illuminated: 0.33

So 20 degrees left of runway 22 centerline.
 
From Beech talk…
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
N 33° 24', W 118° 26'
2024-10-09
Zone: Universal Time
Time: 03:00
Altitude: 17.1°
Azimuth (E of N): 215.3°
Fraction Illuminated: 0.33

So 20 degrees left of runway 22 centerline.
That should be a pretty sharp horizon in direction of flight then.
 
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The accident airplane wasn't owned by the PIC. Per the Prelim, he borrowed the airplane from an acquaintance. May not have known there was a problem with it.
That's not what the prelim says. It says, "Information provided by the flight school indicated that the responding airplane was not operated by the flight school and belonged to an acquaintance of the owner of the flight school."

The flt school owner calling a buddy with a plane and asking him to go pick up some stranded folks would be consistent with the prelim (as would other scenarios).
 
Wow, at night that would be the black hole of all black holes. Pilot's eyes were probably not yet adjusted to the dark as well. And I'll bet the panel lighting was bright, with several glass displays. He was completely blind the moment he crossed the departure threshold.

Could be as simple as he relaxed back pressure on the yoke and didn't have a horizon to cue him to the resulting descent.

Anyone have moon data? I fly along the Gulf coast often. Moon over the water makes a huge difference.

If he departed to the other direction he could have flown straight all the way to the Long Beach coastline with all the lights for reference.
 
RGB is undoubtedly right. I believe I remember a bar, but did not see actual gambling activity.

It has been over 30 years since I went there, and just spent one night. We spent half of that time at the airport talking to pilots.
I have only been going to Avalon for 31 years (first trip was August of 1993). There has not been a publicly available bar at the Casino in that time. As a ballroom type of venue, which is the only thing it has ever been, the bar has been tied to whatever event may be using the facilities at the time. In the way-back past, most of those events were about as exclusive as the bar at the bowling alley, but that ended in the late 1940's. In recent decades, most of those events are either private or have a ticket price that would make the bars back on the Crescent much more appealing. Those bars have the required 2:00 AM cut-off, and many of them close earlier than that.
 
The accident airplane wasn't owned by the PIC. Per the Prelim, he borrowed the airplane from an acquaintance. May not have known there was a problem with it.

The fact that the airplane flew to AVX from SMO and then they couldn't get the right engine started leaves me with the impression there was more going on in the electrical system than just a weak battery (alternator/Voltage Regulator...etc).

After reading the prelim, the scenario that initially came to mind was raising the gear handle caused a catastrophic blackout. That would certainly explain the flight path and outcome.
This could be a very plausible scenario. I had the catastrophic electrical system failure about 15 years ago due to some poor airmanship in a Cessna 337. I flew it down to an avionics place to get some items fixed and ended up having an alternator replaced. The repairs had taken much longer than expected which had frustrated me. I had a self-imposed timeline to get the back to base as I was leaving town to go to work for a few weeks.

I was keen to finally pick it up, but there was a further issue. I can't remember the details but it had been discovered that there was some sort of a relay or fuse that was discovered to not be working and also needed replacing in order to get the new front alternator to be able to charge the system. I didn't really understand the problem when explained to me but decided that I was comfortable to pick it up and fly it back to home base for the final repair because I had had alternator failures in the past and had been able to safely get back home with one of them inop.

It was a beautiful day and I had two short 30 minute legs to fly and then a long leg(2 hours). According the indications, there was positive charging from one of the alternators during flight. There was no voltmeter in the aircraft.

The first two legs seemed fine. I did get a hint if an issue that was ignored for the third flight. I had trouble starting the back engine which takes more electrical power as it is further from the battery but I had seen that sort of thing before and when the front engine was revved up, I was able to crank over the rear engine and start it. A red flag appeared on the heading indicator while taxiing out but they had replaced the indicator at the avionics shop and I figured that it was a problem with the new one. In addition, there was an alternator low volts light flashing sometimes in coordination with the beacon flashing but I think it was OK when the front engine was revved up. I ignored these hints and took off on the nice sunny late afternoon. It appears that the battery was not charging even though there was an indication of a positive charge coming from the front engine.

When the gear was selected up, I had an electrical power failure right away. I remained Nordo and diverted back to the airport with the avionics shop and was able to pump down the gear and do a flapless landing. Not sure how much light would have been available on the instrument panel at night but I think that I did have a bit of electrical power left initially to retract the flaps but I could barely see the gear indicator lights to confirm they were down.

In the end, I had assumed that the battery was being charged because of the positive indication from the alternator. Obviously, this was not the case.

Of course, I made an error by taking an aircraft with an inoperative item like this on a flight. Perhaps a single leg with minimal electrical usage, such as leaving the gear down followed by electrical master off for the flight would have been plausible(I have done that before for a gear warning horn that could not be silenced).

Taking off for a flight where instrument flying is required is a bad idea when there are electrical issues. Also remember if airborne is such a situation, that not operating the landing gear(that has an electrical motor) or delaying operation could prevent an electrical failure happening while instrument flying is required. Perhaps you had an electrical issue and could wait until visual before extending the gear. Or perhaps you decide to manually extend the gear to save electrical power. If the gear retraction finally killing the electrical system theory is correct, maybe not retracting it would have been wiser on that flight out of Catalina.
 
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So the difficutly is the difference between the percieved benefit of completing the mission vs the abstact risk of proceeding.

Anybody know what "PAVE" is? I used to think that was bull-____ but it's not. CFI's out there?
Except that people suffer from continuation bias. "I am going unless things are so bad to convince me not to go."

Versus, "If things are good, I may go, otherwise I will not go."

Even using PAVE and IMSAFE, they need overwhelming proof of bad things to change them from going.
 
Except that people suffer from continuation bias. "I am going unless things are so bad to convince me not to go."

Versus, "If things are good, I may go, otherwise I will not go."

Even using PAVE and IMSAFE, they need overwhelming proof of bad things to change them from going.
The default is no-go. Only go if and when everything is inside the Go parameters. That applies to everything from flying across the country to once around the pattern.
 
Each individual (outside of 121 or 135) has to set his own limits. Part of a personal policy & procedures manual, if you will.
Ah, so nothing would have prevented this pilot from departing, as his personal limits included this takeoff.

Sounds like it would have prevented the accident. :rolleyes:
 
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