ADs, Flight Schools, and Checkrides

D

DCR

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 14, 2023
Messages
34
Display Name
Display name:
rudy
This is a two part question on ADs. The questions came to me while I was listening to the VSL podcast which is hosted by a DPE and flight school owner.

First question: should I prepare a docket of ADs for a PPL checkride broken down by airframe, engine, prop, and accessory like this DPE demonstrates at around the 27 minute mark?

Second question: how do most flight schools go about providing this information to students? I once asked my CFI how I can see the maintenance logbooks for my training aircraft, and he seemed to think that's not likely to happen. Instead, they have a binder available on the office desk which covers the "AVIATE" inspections minus the VOR check (Annual, VOR, i=100 hour, Altimeter/static sys, Transponder, ELT for those who might not have seen the acronym). This also covers the 172 "seat rail" recurring AD, but that's the only AD listed for the carbureted 172s they own. Looping back to my first question - is this enough for a checkride? (Obviously not if I'm going on a checkride with the guy in the podcast...).

Thanks a bunch
 
When there is a checkride at our place, the DPE will examine the airplane logs including the list of AD compliance that is with the documents. An examiner wants to determine the airplane is airworthy before getting into it for the exam.
 
DCR said:
First question: should I prepare a docket of ADs for a PPL checkride broken down by airframe, engine, prop, and accessory like this DPE demonstrates at around the 27 minute mark?
Click to expand...
From strictly a regulatory view there is no requirement to have an AD listing on the aircraft. However, you are required to determine if the aircraft is airworthy prior to flight per Part 91.7. So all the necessary info to determine that must be available to you and your DPE.

DCR said:
Second question: how do most flight schools go about providing this information to students?
Click to expand...
This is dated info, but the flight schools I’ve assisted usually kept their aircraft maintenance records in a controlled area and permitted students and mechanics to review those records when needed or requested.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
I have never understood this fairly new thing of pushing pilots to know all the AD's are complete on an airplane they are going to fly.
I am not sure if the is a DPE/FAA thing or something instructors have dreamed up.

1st of all this really isn't the pilots responsibility it is the operators responsibility to make sure the airplane is "maintained" in an airworthy condition.
As the pilot I only need to determine that the airplane reasonably appears to be airworthy before I fly it. i.e it has all the required paper work and inspections and of course a preflight of the systems.
The IA that does the Annual inspection "should" make sure that all the AD's are complied with. So as the pilot it is reasonable to for me to assume that if the Annual Inspection or 100hr inspection has been signed off as acceptable then all the AD's as of that date are complied with.

It really doesn't do a pilot any good to see a list of AD's for the airplane, because we have no way to verify that is a correct or complete list, at least not without spending hours of research that "should" have already been done to have a valid annual or 100hr inspection completed.

Now I have had the DPE/FAA have an FAA maintenance inspector come out the day before a check ride and do a maintenance inspection on an airplane before the DPE would do the check ride in it. But it wasn't the applicant that was validating that all the proper maintenance had been done and that the Annual inspection sign off was valid. The pilot was only validating that the airplane had those inspections in it's logs.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
So as the pilot it is reasonable to for me to assume that if the Annual Inspection or 100hr inspection has been signed off as acceptable then all the AD's as of that date are complied with.
Click to expand...
FWIW: That is not always 100% accurate as an AD could have been issued after that inspection was performed. Its also the reason the owner/operator has overall AD compliance responsibility per 91.403. And the manner in which 91.7 is worded puts that requirement at the individual level. At a minimum anyone operating an aircraft should know the current AD status of that specific aircraft.
 
The OP is correct to be concerned, the wording in the private pilot ACS is vague. What is meant by "locate"?

Also, there could be recurring ADs that are triggered by hours or some other event.

From the private pilot ACS:

1730995987910.png
 
1. Call the DPE and ask.

2. Assuming this flight school has a relationship with the DPE, the school likely already already knows what the DPE wants to see. So, ask your CFI (although this really should already be included during checkride prep).
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: That is not always 100% accurate as an AD could have been issued after that inspection was performed. Its also the reason the owner/operator has overall AD compliance responsibility per 91.403. And the manner in which 91.7 is worded puts that requirement at the individual level. At a minimum anyone operating an aircraft should know the current AD status of that specific aircraft.
Click to expand...
Exactly why I said "as of the date of the inspection",
The FAA notifies Operators(Owners) of New AD's, but they don't notify Pilots. And it really isn't reasonable for me to keep up on all the AD's for the 12 different aircraft I might fly in a week.
If a new AD comes out it is the Operators responsibility to pull the aircraft from service (if required) or notify the pilots to not fly it.
I know repair stations and and think IA's are required to have access (paid for access) to specific databases for the looking up AD's. I haven't seen anything requiring for pilots to have access to such a database.

But back to my original grip. Showing up to a checkride with the current logbooks that contain a list of all the complied with AD, still doesn't really do anything more than showing the DPE the Annual Sign-off saying the airplane is airworthy. There is no guarantee that list is complete or current other than the entry from person inspecting the airplane that saying that the airplane is found to be airworthy.
Now if it is your airplane and you are the operator of the aircraft then I can understand the FAA/DPE looking a bit closer, especially if they do not know the IA that signed off the previous inspection. And as the operator it is your responsibility to be aware of any AD's that have been issued since the last inspection.
Is there an official source for pilots to lookup AD's, prior to a flight? Similar to like Flight Service does for TFR and Notams. If it ever became an issue how could I document that I checked?
And it gets even more complicate when STC's have been applied to the aircraft where the AD may not be under 1974 C-172M, But rather the O-360 that has been retrofitted to the airplane for example. Or how about the Stc that only applies the Stol kit installed on the airplane.
So the database pretty much has to be Airplane S/N Specific, or we have to look up STC's for all the equipment or modifications that have been applied to the aircraft.
This is way beyond what a private pilot should be expected to do before renting an airplane, validating the required maintenance entries should be enough.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
The IA should have prepared a list at the time of annual. It would behoove you to know that the annual requires this and a bonus if you can show that in the aircraft records. If you know of a subsequent AD, you can have your own addendum to say whether it has been complied or not applicable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
brcase said:
Is there an official source for pilots to lookup AD's, prior to a flight? Similar to like Flight Service does for TFR and Notams. If it ever became an issue how could I document that I checked?
Click to expand...

It's called the FAA DRS. It won't filter by serial number but third party software like the one in the podcast will do that ("ADToolbox": $500/yr subscription according to the host).

flyingron said:
The IA should have prepared a list at the time of annual.
Click to expand...

I'll contact the school about that! If I could just get a copy of that document I think I will be golden.
 
brcase said:
If a new AD comes out it is the Operators responsibility to pull the aircraft from service (if required) or notify the pilots to not fly it.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. I’m strictly speaking on where ADs fit into the big picture. So is it reasonable for you to believe you’ll not have any AD issues on the 12 aircraft you fly weekly? Sure. But its not reasonable to think you are 100% in the clear either. ADs are regulations. So, operating an aircraft with an AD not complied with is no different than not following any other regulation. Its exactly why I referenced the wording in 91.7 as it places the requirement on the person as shown below and not solely on a pilot or an operator. Little quirks that can catch the unsuspecting.

1731012737486.png

brcase said:
Is there an official source for pilots to lookup AD's, prior to a flight?
Click to expand...
Yes. While the annual/100hrs does provide the current AD list to that date, the FAA AD Biweekly Listing will provide you with any ADs issued after that date. It’s the same method they use to issue/reissue AWCs. Its been a free subscription service for many years and I highly recommend you subscribe and make it a part of your routine considering you fly so many different aircraft.
 
brcase said:
t really doesn't do a pilot any good to see a list of AD's for the airplane, because we have no way to verify that is a correct or complete list, at least not without spending hours of research that "should" have already been done to have a valid annual or 100hr inspection completed.
Click to expand...

This is why I advise my applicants to say, "As far as I know" when asked if all ADs are complied with. They can point to the list and believe all ADs are on that list, but they cannot know for certain. It is one of the times when we have to trust the A&P/IA who signed things off.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
This is why I advise my applicants to say, "As far as I know" when asked if all ADs are complied with. They can point to the list and believe all ADs are on that list, but they cannot know for certain. It is one of the times when we have to trust the A&P/IA who signed things off.
Click to expand...

Can I ask what level of detail your applicants go into with their AD lists?

Do you just get the list from maintenance or do you literally search every applicance on the plane by serial number and build an AD packet to cross reference?
 
So just to hijack the thread for personal use, there was an AD issued after the Roselawn crash that required certain verbiage in the AFM/POH regarding flight in icing conditions. It applied to numerous types and/or models of aircraft, but I can’t find reference to it anymore. Does anybody have a reference for it?
 
MauleSkinner said:
So just to hijack the thread for personal use, there was an AD issued after the Roselawn crash that required certain verbiage in the AFM/POH regarding flight in icing conditions. It applied to numerous types and/or models of aircraft, but I can’t find reference to it anymore. Does anybody have a reference for it?
Click to expand...
Are you looking for the original AD? Or one of the superseded versions? Or one of the off-shoot ADs that came out due to ongoing icing issues?
 
Bell206 said:
Are you looking for the original AD? Or one of the superseded versions? Or one of the off-shoot ADs that came out due to ongoing icing issues?
Click to expand...
one that would currently apply to a Baron, King Air, or Beechjet.
 
flyingron said:
The one I posted covers the Beech 99, 200, and 1900
Click to expand...
And there doesn’t appear to be one that covers the 90 or 100 series, or the Baron, which I remember our PMI requiring compliance for when we did a conformity inspection in the 2008-2010 time frame.
 
MauleSkinner said:
one that would currently apply to a Baron, King Air, or Beechjet.
Click to expand...
Not seeing those aircraft associated with the ATR-72 AD. Here's that list:

EDIT: the King Air is listed but not the Baron or Jet. Perhaps a different icing AD?

1731017495869.png
 
DCR said:
Can I ask what level of detail your applicants go into with their AD lists?

Do you just get the list from maintenance or do you literally search every applicance on the plane by serial number and build an AD packet to cross reference?
Click to expand...

They just present the aircraft logbooks which include the AD list, and that seems to satisfy the examiner. I've never heard of anyone having to do more than that.
 
Walboy said:
The OP is correct to be concerned, the wording in the private pilot ACS is vague. What is meant by "locate"?

Also, there could be recurring ADs that are triggered by hours or some other event.

From the private pilot ACS:

View attachment 134938
Click to expand...

I believe your interpretation is incorrect.

The applicant is required to demonstrate the understanding of AD and SAIBs under Preflight Preparation / Airworthiness Requirements.

Then under skills it says demonstrate they can locate and describe the airworthiness and registration information.

This means the applicant should be able to take an maint. logbook and identify and explain the entries for the various inspections. The applicant is not required to present an AD list and determine if they have all been complied with.

If the applicant was required to assure all the ADs were done, it would require an extensive AD search based on serial number and engine/propeller assembly dates.
 
Once you've got an AD list generated for an aircraft it's not terribly difficult to keep up to date.
Just this past week in prep for my annual inspection I used the biweekly AD listing to update my excel spreadsheet of ADs applicable to my aircraft:

Dynamic Regulatory System

drs.faa.gov drs.faa.gov

I also have signed up for AD notifications on a couple different services, one of them from the FAA for free (only airframe/powerplant/propellor available at this time).

Get notified of new ADs​

Sign up for email delivery of new ADs and Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins (SAIBs), based on your aircraft type and make.
 
Walboy said:
The OP is correct to be concerned, the wording in the private pilot ACS is vague. What is meant by "locate"?

Also, there could be recurring ADs that are triggered by hours or some other event.

From the private pilot ACS:

View attachment 134938
Click to expand...

That's the certificates that must be carried in the plane. Not any maintenance records.
 
Mikey52 said:
That's the certificates that must be carried in the plane. Not any maintenance records.
Click to expand...

I think you are right about that particular line in the ACS, but the DPE might see it as part of their due diligence for taking a flight in an unknown aircraft. In that case it could be grounds for a discontinuance of the exam (not necessarily disapproval).

Also, a few lines up from Walboys screenshot:

"PA.I.B.K1c c. Airworthiness Directives and Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins"

asking about any ADs on the plane you are going to fly seems a logical way to cover this test element.

FYI this is all on the 10th pg of this document (which is labeled "pg 2").
 
Mikey52 said:
That's the certificates that must be carried in the plane. Not any maintenance records.
Click to expand...

Clip4 said:
I believe your interpretation is incorrect.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the video the OP linked? The DPE is specifically saying he wants to see AD compliance. The OP's question has merit based on what the DPE in the video is saying. His interpretation is obviously not the same as your's.

@RussR 's advice to call and ask is the best way to handle this.
 
And they are both interpretations. If the aircraft has an annual or 100 hr inspection? Then AD's were complied with. Or there is still an open write up in the logbook. The ia I use does a neat little binder that has everything needed including w&b, annual, Stc, ad's etc that is kept in the plane in addition to a logbook. For repetitive ad's like the elt 90 day battery check, there is a place in his binder to log those too.
 
Mikey52 said:
The ia I use does a neat little binder that has everything needed including w&b, annual, Stc, ad's etc that is kept in the plane in addition to a logbook.
Click to expand...
We don't keep any airplane logs or records in the airplane, other than the required documents. They are too valuable.
 
Mikey52 said:
And they are both interpretations. If the aircraft has an annual or 100 hr inspection? Then AD's were complied with. Or there is still an open write up in the logbook. The ia I use does a neat little binder that has everything needed including w&b, annual, Stc, ad's etc that is kept in the plane in addition to a logbook. For repetitive ad's like the elt 90 day battery check, there is a place in his binder to log those too.
Click to expand...

I understand all that. I know airplane maintenance logs aren't kept in the airplane. I know which documents are required. The checkrides I have done in my own airplane, I bring the logbooks and AD compliance list with me.

If the OP has never had a checkride before and then watches a video with a DPE who seems to take airworthiness very seriously and says he wants to see the AD list, then help the OP with his questions. The DPE in the video also goes on to say how he will not accept a blanket statement that ADs have been complied with in the logbook entry for an annual inspection. Apparently, as he says in the video, he has been burned.

Help the OP, not me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCR
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top