CENTCOM CC gots some splainin' to do

Witmo

Witmo

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General Kurilla, CENTCOM Commander, is on the hot seat for reportedly having an argument with a C-17 aircrew member as he was flying to Israel where he allegedly shoved the airman. The argument concerned the General's access to a communications system aboard the aircraft. Pretty ballsy of an airman to get into a ****ing contest with a four star. Curious how this is going to pan out.
 
The security procedures may well prohibit all but designated personnel into that space. The General may have a problem, which will go away easily, unless he hassles the airman.

In my other life, in the Army, a new Lieutenant decided to inspect the high security guard site. As he approached, the guard called "Halt", the Lieutenant identified himself as Officer of the Guard, and started to approach the guard. The guard racked a cartridge into the chamber, and ordered him to back up 3 steps, off the protected zone.

The Lieutenant returned to the guard house, addressed the sergeant of that section of the guard watch, and demanded to know how he was to properly inspect that guard if he refused to let him within 20 feet. Sarg said "First, read the guard orders, he is required to shoot anyone within 10 feet of him. If you wish to examine him, you get his replacement out of his bunk, replace the guard on duty, and then inspect him.

Secure areas and equipment have some strange rules, and failure to know the rules is not an excuse to override them, no matter your rank.
 
Why’s a 4 star flying on a C-17? My *** would be on a C-37? Must be a man of the people. :p

Well he is a VIP (code 3) and should be treated as such. It’s common for those guys to be up ICS. Guess the AF crew didn’t get the memo.
 
I want that rule…
 
Velocity173 said:
Why’s a 4 star flying on a C-17? My *** would be on a C-37? Must be a man of the people. :p

Well he is a VIP (code 3) and should be treated as such. It’s common for those guys to be up ICS. Guess the AF crew didn’t get the memo.
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Better countermeasure suite on a 17 plus it can go non-stop with AR support if need be.
 
Velocity173 said:
Why’s a 4 star flying on a C-17? My *** would be on a C-37? Must be a man of the people. :p

Well he is a VIP (code 3) and should be treated as such. It’s common for those guys to be up ICS. Guess the AF crew didn’t get the memo.
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Depends on what capsule/pallet is shoved in the back of the C-17. He may *not* have access or need to know for other things going on, but when SAP *might* be occurring, that could explain a thing or two.

Just because he’s head of CENTCOM doesn’t mean he has need to know about everything other combatant commanders or .gov agencies could be doing in his backyard.
 
tsts4 said:
Better countermeasure suite on a 17 plus it can go non-stop with AR support if need be.
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I suppose it’s possible he took that into consideration but I think it had more to do with aircraft availability. I’d still go with a dedicated VIP over “Globemaster Airlines.” C-37s used to fly generals / admirals in and out of Afghanistan all the time. Not exactly the safest place to be operating out of.
 
TCABM said:
Depends on what capsule/pallet is shoved in the back of the C-17. He may *not* have access or need to know for other things going on, but when SAP *might* be occurring, that could explain a thing or two.

Just because he’s head of CENTCOM doesn’t mean he has need to know about everything other combatant commanders or .gov agencies could be doing in his backyard.
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Generals are nosey like that though. I remember in Afghanistan we had Sec Def visiting and we couldn’t offer our standard C2 package for him for his AO tour. Our general (82nd) threw a fit in the back of the aircraft when we informed him the aircraft wouldn’t be available for later. He loved listening in on the action in the AO. It was funny, I was flying with my commander (CPT) and as a typical WO, I had excuses while my CO simply said “we’ll get it done sir.” Sec Def got his C2 bird even though they probably didn’t use the capabilities.
 
Bob Noel said:
What the heck is a four star doing shoving anyone?

Where was the general's aide?
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That’s what I was thinking. They don’t go anywhere without their aide. In my experience, a good aide makes all the difference. A good aide not only has the VIP’s schedule memorized, they know more about what the boss is doing then the boss does. And in a situation like this, they’ve already coordinated with the aircraft commander on what his boss needs. Just sounds like miscommunication to me.
 
Bob Noel said:
What the heck is a four star doing shoving anyone?

Where was the general's aide?
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Exactly. If someone needed shoving, the aide should have anticipated that and already be in the wide-brace position.

"Johnson! Get up here and shove this person for me. Roughly and with vim!"
 
I don't think some of y'all are clear on what the chain of command is concerning commanders of combatant commands. As CC of CENTCOM the only people above him are the SECDEF and President. He is the big cheese in his AOR and is probably really antsy when he's out of the loop of what's going on in his AOR. As for the possibility of a SAP that he doesn't have access to, if it's doing anything in his AOR, he has access to it. The top of the Air Force chain of command in CENTCOM, the CENTAF CC, kneels before the throne of CENTCOM CC. That C-17 was probably wholly dedicated to do one thing on that mission and that would be whatever General Kurilla wanted it to do.
 
Witmo said:
I don't think some of y'all are clear on what the chain of command is concerning commanders of combatant commands. As CC of CENTCOM the only people above him are the SECDEF and President. He is the big cheese in his AOR and is probably really antsy when he's out of the loop of what's going on in his AOR. As for the possibility of a SAP that he doesn't have access to, if it's doing anything in his AOR, he has access to it. The top of the Air Force chain of command in CENTCOM, the CENTAF CC, kneels before the throne of CENTCOM CC. That C-17 was probably wholly dedicated to do one thing on that mission and that would be whatever General Kurilla wanted it to do.
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I’m perfectly clear on where any combatant commander sits in the food chain. There’s plenty of SAPs and STOs that Combatant Commanders aren’t read in to for valid reasons.

I’m also plenty aware of the various ways those guys get around both for intra- and inter-theater movements.

All of that is besides the bigger issue of why a Flag Officer or General Officer is being investigated for their hands on any one.
 
Just because he’s CENTCOM Commander doesn’t give him absolute waiver authority. He might very well have waiver authority for seat belts. First 4 star in our CoC could waiver seat belt use but no idea about AF regs.
 
Is there something inherently wrong with our military when a shove from a general reaches this level and requires an investigation? God help us if we ever have to fight a real war.
 
Lndwarrior said:
Is there something inherently wrong with our military when a shove from a general reaches this level and requires an investigation? God help us if we ever have to fight a real war.
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Um, have you ever heard of a gen named Patton? Served a bit in EU theatre. Was investigated for abusing an EM and was forced to issue a public apology. He did 'ok' in his war effort.

As for the gen on the AF plane, sit down when told. If there's turbulence, and it's going to toss the meatsacks around, if the gen isn't in his seat with a belt on, the loadmaster, or the AF equiv of a flight attendant might be in serious trouble. I would have told him to sit and buckle too.

Now, my tangle with a 2 star when I was just a SP-5: I was a pro race driver at a small time track for a few years. Stationed in W Germany for a while, I got a Spezial Reisepass for the Nurburgring F1 race, as a sponsor got me one. I think it was Rothman cigs maybe. Anyway, I"m up in the suite with free drinks, and food, and rubbing elbows with some big name sponsors and the like. A 2 star comes in with a Col in tow. He can tell from my haircut and English I'm a soldier. The O6 takes me aside and asks for my mil ID, and I give it to him. He looks it over and looks me over and tells me to leave. Well, no I don't think so sir, have a nice day sir, please can I have my ID sir, thank you sir good day.

Natch, the two star didn't like this so he came over to me and asked WTF are you doing here, and I said I was invited. He wanted to see my invite, and I showed him. I asked for his, and he didn't have one. Our host sponsor made him leave the suite. I think the two officers were so embarrassed they never said anything to anyone about it. I left the army soon after that. But - Gen can be very pleasant, or very unpleasant.
 
Military discipline and Decorum is obviously not what it was some fifty plus years ago.

Sgt., US Army, 1968-1971
 
Barrett50 said:
Um, have you ever heard of a gen named Patton? Served a bit in EU theatre. Was investigated for abusing an EM and was forced to issue a public apology. He did 'ok' in his war effort.

As for the gen on the AF plane, sit down when told. If there's turbulence, and it's going to toss the meatsacks around, if the gen isn't in his seat with a belt on, the loadmaster, or the AF equiv of a flight attendant might be in serious trouble. I would have told him to sit and buckle too.

Now, my tangle with a 2 star when I was just a SP-5: I was a pro race driver at a small time track for a few years. Stationed in W Germany for a while, I got a Spezial Reisepass for the Nurburgring F1 race, as a sponsor got me one. I think it was Rothman cigs maybe. Anyway, I"m up in the suite with free drinks, and food, and rubbing elbows with some big name sponsors and the like. A 2 star comes in with a Col in tow. He can tell from my haircut and English I'm a soldier. The O6 takes me aside and asks for my mil ID, and I give it to him. He looks it over and looks me over and tells me to leave. Well, no I don't think so sir, have a nice day sir, please can I have my ID sir, thank you sir good day.

Natch, the two star didn't like this so he came over to me and asked WTF are you doing here, and I said I was invited. He wanted to see my invite, and I showed him. I asked for his, and he didn't have one. Our host sponsor made him leave the suite. I think the two officers were so embarrassed they never said anything to anyone about it. I left the army soon after that. But - Gen can be very pleasant, or very unpleasant.
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I was in Germany ‘69 to ‘71. I ran a Fire Control maintenance crew for a missile system. We were a show outfit and the closest battery to Rhein Main, so we did a lot of VIP tours. The officers ran the scale, but most of them I dealt with were good guys. The radar orientations I did were mostly for senior officers ranging from Lt. Colonels to Brigadiers from all NATO forces but there was usually a trail of junior officers trailing along kissing hind ends. It was quite entertaining watching the interactions sometimes, and it was quite fun being seemingly respected by them. Never saw an officer involved with any physical confrontations though.

The most memorable time was during a Tactical Evaluation. We always knocked it out of the park. It was like being on a championship ball team or something. During this inspection which included operational exercises, the missile and launcher group was troubleshooting a problem which made for a break. One of the judges was a Full Colonel in the German Army. I played Pinochle with some of the guys when on standby duty at the missile site. Our Battery Commander knew it and somehow knew that the German Colonel liked to play Pinochle. He asked me if I would keep him entertained with a Pinochle game, so he, a Warrant Officer and a Master sergeant from Batallion who worked with us a lot, crowded around my little desk in my closet office. After a little while playing cards, the Colonel started telling about stories about his tank on the Russian front. They were jaw dropping stories and he was a super nice guy that obviously had been determined had not been a Nazi.

I learned from my time there that officers are people like anyone else. Some them are (expletive deleted) jerks and some of them are just super nice guys.
 
tsts4 said:
Better countermeasure suite on a 17 plus it can go non-stop with AR support if need be.
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The Air Force has dedicated E4 Command Post 747s for Strategic Command and Control for flying around the continental US. I would suspect that we have capability today of rolling onto a C17 a similar connectivity capability for combatant commanders when they are traveling around their AOR so they are never out of touch with the forces they command or the National Command Authority. C37s offer a transportation capability but little else in the way of command and control.
 
Witmo said:
The Air Force has dedicated E4 Command Post 747s for Strategic Command and Control for flying around the continental US. I would suspect that we have capability today of rolling onto a C17 a similar connectivity capability for combatant commanders when they are traveling around their AOR so they are never out of touch with the forces they command or the National Command Authority. C37s offer a transportation capability but little else in the way of command and control.
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an ABCCC for the big boys?
 
Bob Noel said:
an ABCCC for the big boys?
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The EC-130s and capsules were retired in 2002. A sub-unified command picked up a couple of the capsules, modified them, and hung on to them until ~ 2014. I don’t know what happened to them after that.

As far as the E-4, that’s a different mission entirely.
 
TCABM said:
The EC-130s and capsules were retired in 2002. A sub-unified command picked up a couple of the capsules, modified them, and hung on to them until ~ 2014. I don’t know what happened to them after that.

As far as the E-4, that’s a different mission entirely.
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I wasn't suggesting anyone was using the actual ABCCC stuff, just the concept.

and, btw, it's my understanding that the E-3 and E-8C picked up the ABCCC mission. Not sure if the E-8C is still flying today.

edit: just looked, the last E-8C was retired last year. and I guess a version of the E-11A does that mission now (or something similar). Anyway, back to the thread...
 
TCABM said:
The EC-130s and capsules were retired in 2002. A sub-unified command picked up a couple of the capsules, modified them, and hung on to them until ~ 2014. I don’t know what happened to them after that.

As far as the E-4, that’s a different mission entirely.
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The point I was trying to make was having a dedicated airframe for one single mission is an expensive solution to a single requirement. Having a roll on, roll off, module that can be used when needed and stored when it's not which allows the use of the airframe for other missions, is a more flexible solution.
 
Witmo said:
The point I was trying to make was having a dedicated airframe for one single mission is an expensive solution to a single requirement. Having a roll on, roll off, module that can be used when needed and stored when it's not which allows the use of the airframe for other missions, is a more flexible solution.
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complicated by the co-site challenges
(but I understood the point)
 
Sounds like the C-17 C2 platform is in testing and not something equipped on a VIP transport mission. His purpose was to travel to Israel to conduct meetings in preparation for an Iranian attack.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Air Force Flies C-17 as Command and Control Platform in ACE Experiment

Airmen used a C-17 Globemaster III as a command-and-control platform in an experiment which could give commanders more options downrange.
www.airandspaceforces.com www.airandspaceforces.com

We don’t even know what started all this. Perhaps the general was just having a bad day. Maybe the airman instigated this. Perhaps took an aggressive posture and the general was defending himself. Very little to go on other than a shove and being told to sit down and fasten his seatbelt. Id like to believe they won’t go the Article 128 route but these days, you never know.
 
Witmo said:
…Having a roll on, roll off, module that can be used when needed and stored when it's not which allows the use of the airframe for other missions, is a more flexible solution.
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Not disagreeing with the concept, but RORO capsule still needs antennae that aren’t organic to the airframe. One way this has been solved in the past is to fit a modified hatch or hatches that has/have antennae needed. There’s also the added power generation requirements to run the operator stations.

For ref, airborne command and control what I did for most of my Air Force career.

Velocity173 said:
Sounds like the C-17 C2 platform is in testing and not something equipped on a VIP transport mission. ….
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This type of capability has been executed in a variety of different ways on C-17s and C-130s. We also had some strap-on capabilities on the E-3 that would steal an existing antenna on the jet. The organic radio that used that antenna would no longer be available for use though.

Also, concur there’s so much we don’t know about the incident that any conjecture is like mishap speculation.
 
I predict this will blow over quietly and quickly.

Neither party has a long term gain in forcibly winning this one.
 
On submarines there are classic stories of Admiral Rickover testing security of "his" submarines by pulling different stunts. I was told one where the topside watch raised the intruder alarm, pulled his sidearm and racked the slide when Rickover tried to walk past him without properly identifying himself. He also carried an ID card that was correct in every way except that it had a picture of a gorilla as the photo. Never anything physical and he knew when to stop and not get shot.

People who failed his tests typically did not remain on submarines, but he was fair to them. The guard who pulls his sidearm out got a commendation. The Duty Officer that chewed the guy out for doing it got a stern warning.
 
TCABM said:
Not disagreeing with the concept, but RORO capsule still needs antennae that aren’t organic to the airframe. One way this has been solved in the past is to fit a modified hatch or hatches that has/have antennae needed. There’s also the added power generation requirements to run the operator stations.

For ref, airborne command and control what I did for most of my Air Force career.


This type of capability has been executed in a variety of different ways on C-17s and C-130s. We also had some strap-on capabilities on the E-3 that would steal an existing antenna on the jet. The organic radio that used that antenna would no longer be available for use though.

Also, concur there’s so much we don’t know about the incident that any conjecture is like mishap speculation.
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Yeah I would think CENTCOM commander would have some sort of dedicated C2 setup in the back. Does the loadmaster have a set of backup radios in the back of a typical C-17?
 
I went to West Point with Erik Kurilla, and played on the Rugby team with him there. I also went thru Infantry Officer Course and Ranger School with him. I knew him fairly well.

He has a Patton persona. Big brass ones, large and in charge of any situation; forceful and direct. He's one of the most experienced and accomplished field commanders to come out of the GWOT. Commanded 2 battalions and the Ranger Regiment at the peak of ops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Was wounded badly in the leg chasing a bad guy in Mosul as a Bn CDR, and another time got into a hand-to-hand scrap in a dark house at night that resulted in him getting bitten (!). Has his share of TBI from roadside bombs too. That's how he rolls.

If I had to guess, the crew chief tried to block his path and Erik removed him. No idea how that will go down with the SECDEF.
 
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I've seen O-6+ folks removed from command tours for similar types of things. Getting into a physical altercation with an enlisted person (or just subordinate in general) is a pretty bad look at a minimum, and depending on circumstances, generally judged pretty harshly by one's own higher echelon leadership. I have no idea what happened here, and of course a simple "shove" could really be anything. But this is definitely the type of thing that can end up being a really big deal for someone.
 
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