FAA Language Akin To "Rule By Iron Fist"

J

Jon Wilder

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
228
Location
Greenville, SC
Display Name
Display name:
Jwylde
Anyone ever notice that the FAA has a very "rule by iron fist" enforcement mentality?

For example, your medical ends up being deferred. They send a correspondence letter requesting more information. In that letter, we find the following language -

"if no reply has been received within 60 days from the date of this letter, we will either refer your case for legal enforcement action..."

Legal enforcement action...sooo you're going to have me arrested? For what, exactly? All I've done is apply for a medical certificate. Is that a crime?

When you apply for a certificate or a rating, you receive the "Pilots Bill of Rights And Notice of Investigation".

OK soooo...I'm a suspect now? You're going to "investigate" me? How about an "eligibility verification"...you gotta call it an "investigation"? Like I've broken some law?

Like do they not know how to be nice? Are we all just heathens looking for any possible way to break the regulations? Is that what they think of us?
 
Jon Wilder said:
Anyone ever notice that the FAA has a very "rule by iron fist" enforcement mentality?

For example, your medical ends up being deferred. They send a correspondence letter requesting more information. In that letter, we find the following language -

"if no reply has been received within 60 days from the date of this letter, we will either refer your case for legal enforcement action..."

Legal enforcement action...sooo you're going to have me arrested? For what, exactly? All I've done is apply for a medical certificate. Is that a crime?

When you apply for a certificate or a rating, you receive the "Pilots Bill of Rights And Notice of Investigation".

OK soooo...I'm a suspect now? You're going to "investigate" me? How about an "eligibility verification"...you gotta call it an "investigation"? Like I've broken some law?

Like do they not know how to be nice? Are we all just heathens looking for any possible way to break the regulations? Is that what they think of us?
Click to expand...
Yeah, they should be nicer..

 
Jon Wilder said:
Legal enforcement action...sooo you're going to have me arrested? For what, exactly? All I've done is apply for a medical certificate. Is that a crime?
Click to expand...
They're like the drunk guy at the bar (in a lot of ways), running his mouth and threatening people.

They really have very little power when it comes to enforcement. What are they going to do, take the medical you don't have? Take your license? A few years ago I shared an example of a guy giving commercial rides even though he wasn't a commercial pilot and his plane wasn't approved for commercial rides. They suspended him and physically took his license. He applied for a replacement, saying he lost his, and they sent him a new one! They then took that one and told him not to do that again. They suspended him for a year, but surprise... he kept flying and they knew it. It was crazy watching them try to fight with someone who didn't care. In the end, they finally revoked his license, but I hear rumors he's still out there... who knows?
 
Lowflynjack said:
They're like the drunk guy at the bar (in a lot of ways), running his mouth and threatening people.

They really have very little power when it comes to enforcement. What are they going to do, take the medical you don't have? Take your license? A few years ago I shared an example of a guy giving commercial rides even though he wasn't a commercial pilot and his plane wasn't approved for commercial rides. They suspended him and physically took his license. He applied for a replacement, saying he lost his, and they sent him a new one! They then took that one and told him not to do that again. They suspended him for a year, but surprise... he kept flying and they knew it. It was crazy watching them try to fight with someone who didn't care. In the end, they finally revoked his license, but I hear rumors he's still out there... who knows?
Click to expand...

The US Attorneys have over a 90% success on prosecuting people.

The question becomes “Do you feel lucky?”
 
Jon Wilder said:
Anyone ever notice that the FAA has a very "rule by iron fist" enforcement mentality?

For example, your medical ends up being deferred. They send a correspondence letter requesting more information. In that letter, we find the following language -

"if no reply has been received within 60 days from the date of this letter, we will either refer your case for legal enforcement action..."

Legal enforcement action...sooo you're going to have me arrested? For what, exactly? All I've done is apply for a medical certificate. Is that a crime?

When you apply for a certificate or a rating, you receive the "Pilots Bill of Rights And Notice of Investigation".

OK soooo...I'm a suspect now? You're going to "investigate" me? How about an "eligibility verification"...you gotta call it an "investigation"? Like I've broken some law?

Like do they not know how to be nice? Are we all just heathens looking for any possible way to break the regulations? Is that what they think of us?
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting they not provide straight forward legal notices as required because they might hurt someone's feelings?
 
Jon Wilder said:
Like do they not know how to be nice? Are we all just heathens looking for any possible way to break the regulations? Is that what they think of us?
Click to expand...
I think its more procedural or regulatory driving the format and statements on those letters than anything else. Most of my other government level correspondence has similar warnings and statements.

As to “looking to break regulations,” in my experience assisting those who have violated a rule, usually the 1st thing out of their mouth is “I didn’t know it was a regulation.” So IMO those types of warnings and statements on correspondence may actually help people not violate a regulation.
 
Lowflynjack said:
They're like the drunk guy at the bar (in a lot of ways), running his mouth and threatening people.

They really have very little power when it comes to enforcement. What are they going to do, take the medical you don't have? Take your license? A few years ago I shared an example of a guy giving commercial rides even though he wasn't a commercial pilot and his plane wasn't approved for commercial rides. They suspended him and physically took his license. He applied for a replacement, saying he lost his, and they sent him a new one! They then took that one and told him not to do that again. They suspended him for a year, but surprise... he kept flying and they knew it. It was crazy watching them try to fight with someone who didn't care. In the end, they finally revoked his license, but I hear rumors he's still out there... who knows?
Click to expand...

Here's a couple that decided the FAA had no power:

Alaskan Individual Sentenced for Serving as an Airman Without a Pilot's Certificate and Aircraft Registration Fraud | DOT OIG

On September 10, 2024, the U.S. District Court for the District of Alaska sentenced Michael Anthony “Tony” Roberts to 20 months in prison, 2 years of supervised release, $1,000 in restitution, and a $200 special assessment. On June 6, 2024, Roberts pleaded guilty to charges of serving as an...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov

Ohio Individual Sentenced for Flying Aircraft Without an Airman’s Certificate | DOT OIG

On August 8, 2022, the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio sentenced Delbert Garfield Stewart to 24 months of probation, including one weekend of incarceration, a $5,000 fine, and a $100 special assessment. The investigation revealed that on June 20, 2019, Stewart piloted a...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov
 
Lindberg said:
Are you suggesting they not provide straight forward legal notices as required because they might hurt someone's feelings?
Click to expand...
No, I'm suggesting they should use language that doesn't suggest that the person is under criminal investigation. Something like "Hey, we need some more information from you in order to determine eligibility for medical certification under Part 67. Without this information, eligibility cannot be determined." rather than "We need some information from you, and you better have it to us within 60 days or else we're going to pursue legal action against you."
 
Doc Holliday said:
Here's a couple that decided the FAA had no power:

Alaskan Individual Sentenced for Serving as an Airman Without a Pilot's Certificate and Aircraft Registration Fraud | DOT OIG

On September 10, 2024, the U.S. District Court for the District of Alaska sentenced Michael Anthony “Tony” Roberts to 20 months in prison, 2 years of supervised release, $1,000 in restitution, and a $200 special assessment. On June 6, 2024, Roberts pleaded guilty to charges of serving as an...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov

Ohio Individual Sentenced for Flying Aircraft Without an Airman’s Certificate | DOT OIG

On August 8, 2022, the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio sentenced Delbert Garfield Stewart to 24 months of probation, including one weekend of incarceration, a $5,000 fine, and a $100 special assessment. The investigation revealed that on June 20, 2019, Stewart piloted a...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov
Click to expand...
These are fairly extreme cases.

In the first case, he had no license, but didn't go to jail or get a fine until he crashed.

In the second case, the pilot flew with his license suspended, busted airspace, and then told the FAA they had no jurisdiction over him. He also landed with his gear up.

In the case I mentioned, the FAA said unless they could catch him flying the plane and make sure no other pilot was in the plane and at the controls, then there wasn't much they could do. They investigated him for a long time, but when he finally crashed right after dropping off paying passengers, they had to take action. Even then, he never got fined or jailed.

And, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should fight the FAA. I do think it takes some pretty extreme violations to get them to pursue criminal charges. Usually it is when there is imminent danger to others.
 
My dealings with them (FSDO safety) have been the opposite. On the two times I’ve declared emergencies, my ADM wasn’t the best. They were professional and honestly wanted to make sure it was a learning experience vs punitive action. They could’ve pursued enforcement action but didn’t. I think they understood my decision making while flawed, wasn’t careless / reckless. Plus, I’m sure they have bigger fish to fry than little ole me.
 
Bell206 said:
As to “looking to break regulations,” in my experience assisting those who have violated a rule, usually the 1st thing out of their mouth is “I didn’t know it was a regulation.” So IMO those types of warnings and statements on correspondence may actually help people not violate a regulation.
Click to expand...
Or at least let them say there is no plausible deniability
 
Jon Wilder said:
"if no reply has been received within 60 days from the date of this letter, we will either refer your case for legal enforcement action..."
Click to expand...
Instead of cutting out a small portion of text to prove your point, how about posting the entire context?
 
Jon Wilder said:
Anyone ever notice that the FAA has a very "rule by iron fist" enforcement mentality?

For example, your medical ends up being deferred. They send a correspondence letter requesting more information. In that letter, we find the following language -

"if no reply has been received within 60 days from the date of this letter, we will either refer your case for legal enforcement action..."

Legal enforcement action...sooo you're going to have me arrested? For what, exactly? All I've done is apply for a medical certificate. Is that a crime?

When you apply for a certificate or a rating, you receive the "Pilots Bill of Rights And Notice of Investigation".

OK soooo...I'm a suspect now? You're going to "investigate" me? How about an "eligibility verification"...you gotta call it an "investigation"? Like I've broken some law?

Like do they not know how to be nice? Are we all just heathens looking for any possible way to break the regulations? Is that what they think of us?
Click to expand...
I've been dealing with the FAA for 45yrs and I'm certain GA could self-police with better results than what we're seeing. Bureaucracies do what they do Best
 
sansoneservices said:
I'm certain GA could self-police with better results than what we're seeing.
Click to expand...
Curious. What would that look like in your view for the GA private/recreational side when compared to its present level of oversight?
 
Jon Wilder said:
No, I'm suggesting they should use language that doesn't suggest that the person is under criminal investigation. Something like "Hey, we need some more information from you in order to determine eligibility for medical certification under Part 67. Without this information, eligibility cannot be determined." rather than "We need some information from you, and you better have it to us within 60 days or else we're going to pursue legal action against you."
Click to expand...
So you’re suggesting that they make an open-ended statement with no timeline and no indication of what the action will be if the pilot doesn’t comply with the nonexistent timeline?
 
Jon Wilder said:
No, I'm suggesting they should use language that doesn't suggest that the person is under criminal investigation. Something like "Hey, we need some more information from you in order to determine eligibility for medical certification under Part 67. Without this information, eligibility cannot be determined." rather than "We need some information from you, and you better have it to us within 60 days or else we're going to pursue legal action against you."
Click to expand...
Well you only posted a small part of the FAA's statement.

But yes, if you're holding a certificate that they believe may be invalid, and you don't respond to the request for information, they're going to begin the legal process to revoke that certificate. So they say so. Anything less could be seen as deceitful.

And looking at your post history, it seems you may have an ax to grind here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top