Growler Down

35 AoA said:
This particular route, especially the segments north of where they were, can get a little spicy if you need to pop off. I've had to do it plenty of times, and it is a fun phone game trying to get someone with SEA CTR on freq.
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My slow mover inadvertent IMC training back in the day was 'Control/Climb/Call', the first part of which was level the attitude indicator then immediately pitch up to initiate a climb. Does Navy do something similar for those VR routes? Hard to imagine the reflexes and decision making needed to recover at that speed and rapidly varying bank angles so close to the rocks.

Sorry for the loss of two of America's best.
 
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Transitioning to instruments is basically seamless…. You don’t even think about it.

The approach turn behind the boat is basically an instrument maneuver. We’re trained in transitioning to instruments in the blink of an eye in the case of flying formation in the goo. You may be chugging along looking at nothing but a wingtip, then poof it’s gone, go instrument and execute lost sight procedures. Which entails determining what you were doing at the time. If climbing or descending, wing levels off. Turn into you keep the turn (and tighten up a bit), turn away you go wings level. Basically start increasing separation. An immediate radio call, lead has responsibilities as well, like going wings level in the case of a turn into.

We weren’t supposed to fly more than a section in the goo.

So to transition off a low level is really not anywhere near challenging. But mistakes happen. Not because of training deficiencies or it being inherently difficult. Something ELSE is the cause for the mistake. Distraction, fatigue, malfunction… it’s routine enough that complacency is actually high on the list.

Should be no such thing as being surprised by suddenly being IMC. Minimums required are such that you should see the possibility and knock it off. So if it was sudden IMC, THAT was the mistake. If sudden smoke in the cockpit or something… well, can’t foresee that, your startle response either works or it don’t.

While not difficult, the venue doesn’t allow for a very significant mistake. We ALL have goofs that left us just a heartbeat away from death….

I was joining (during a turn away) on the skipper overhead, saw the guy in the right seat watching me join… in close I suddenly saw NOTHING but the top of his jet as he as rapidly as a S-3 can do broke into me. To this day I got no clue how I avoided him and finished the joinup in about a 60 degree bank into… I got lucky somehow. If I had even glanced inside to check ANYTHING it woulda been lights out. Possibly even if I blinked at that moment… crazy.

So it’s not “hard”, it’s just unforgiving of even very small mistakes. And it coulda not even required a “mistake”.

While ALL mishaps are a chain of events from which we can learn. In some venues the margin of safety is so small it’s difficult to figure it out after the fact. In those cases, too great a mishap rate can only be fixed by increasing the generic margin of safety.

So while SOMETHING happened that’s preventable, we may just not ever know what it was precisely.
 
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Tools said:
Transitioning to instruments is basically seamless…. You don’t even think about it.

The approach turn behind the boat is basically an instrument maneuver. We’re trained in transitioning to instruments in the blink of an eye in the case of flying formation in the goo. You may be chugging along looking at nothing but a wingtip, then poof it’s gone, go instrument and execute lost sight procedures. Which entails determining what you were doing at the time. If climbing or descending, wing levels off. Turn into you keep the turn (and tighten up a bit), turn away you go wings level. Basically start increasing separation. An immediate radio call, lead has responsibilities as well, like going wings level in the case of a turn into.

We weren’t supposed to fly more than a section in the goo.

So to transition off a low level is really not anywhere near challenging. But mistakes happen. Not because of training deficiencies or it being inherently difficult. Something ELSE is the cause for the mistake. Distraction, fatigue, malfunction… it’s routine enough that complacency is actually high on the list.

Should be no such thing as being surprised by suddenly being IMC. Minimums required are such that you should see the possibility and knock it off. So if it was sudden IMC, THAT was the mistake. If sudden smoke in the cockpit or something… well, can’t foresee that, your startle response either works or it don’t.

While not difficult, the venue doesn’t allow for a very significant mistake. We ALL have goofs that left us just a heartbeat away from death….

I was joining (during a turn away) on the skipper overhead, saw the guy in the right seat watching me join… in close I suddenly saw NOTHING but the top of his jet as he as rapidly as a S-3 can do broke into me. To this day I got no clue how I avoided him and finished the joinup in about a 60 degree bank into… I got lucky somehow. If I had even glanced inside to check ANYTHING it woulda been lights out. Possibly even if I blinked at that moment… crazy.

So it’s not “hard”, it’s just unforgiving of even very small mistakes. And it coulda not even required a “mistake”.

While ALL mishaps are a chain of events from which we can learn. In some venues the margin of safety is so small it’s difficult to figure it out after the fact. In those cases, too great a mishap rate can only be fixed by increasing the generic margin of safety.

So while SOMETHING happened that’s preventable, we may just not ever know what it was precisely.
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Excellent write up Tools — thank you. From childhood growing up on an airport I always heard that naval aviation and cropdusting were the two most dangerous forms of flying. And I know for a fact how fast cropdusting can kill you. My respect for your branch is also a fact.
 
I imagine area under the curve is similar…

Boat flying, which is mainly landing, requires CRAZY precision, but for about a minute per flight. It seems crop dusting requires a little less precision, but for HOURS.

Landing on the boat is like a free throw in basket ball. Not particularly complicated, anyone can do it, but if you’re gonna bet your ass on it, you gotta be GOOD at it. You can’t be shooting Michael Jordan 50 percent… think 1970 Harlem Globetrotters 99 percent.
 
Tools said:
Transitioning to instruments is basically seamless…. You don’t even think about it.

The approach turn behind the boat is basically an instrument maneuver. We’re trained in transitioning to instruments in the blink of an eye in the case of flying formation in the goo. You may be chugging along looking at nothing but a wingtip, then poof it’s gone, go instrument and execute lost sight procedures. Which entails determining what you were doing at the time. If climbing or descending, wing levels off. Turn into you keep the turn (and tighten up a bit), turn away you go wings level. Basically start increasing separation. An immediate radio call, lead has responsibilities as well, like going wings level in the case of a turn into.

We weren’t supposed to fly more than a section in the goo.

So to transition off a low level is really not anywhere near challenging. But mistakes happen. Not because of training deficiencies or it being inherently difficult. Something ELSE is the cause for the mistake. Distraction, fatigue, malfunction… it’s routine enough that complacency is actually high on the list.

Should be no such thing as being surprised by suddenly being IMC. Minimums required are such that you should see the possibility and knock it off. So if it was sudden IMC, THAT was the mistake. If sudden smoke in the cockpit or something… well, can’t foresee that, your startle response either works or it don’t.

While not difficult, the venue doesn’t allow for a very significant mistake. We ALL have goofs that left us just a heartbeat away from death….

I was joining (during a turn away) on the skipper overhead, saw the guy in the right seat watching me join… in close I suddenly saw NOTHING but the top of his jet as he as rapidly as a S-3 can do broke into me. To this day I got no clue how I avoided him and finished the joinup in about a 60 degree bank into… I got lucky somehow. If I had even glanced inside to check ANYTHING it woulda been lights out. Possibly even if I blinked at that moment… crazy.

So it’s not “hard”, it’s just unforgiving of even very small mistakes. And it coulda not even required a “mistake”.

While ALL mishaps are a chain of events from which we can learn. In some venues the margin of safety is so small it’s difficult to figure it out after the fact. In those cases, too great a mishap rate can only be fixed by increasing the generic margin of safety.

So while SOMETHING happened that’s preventable, we may just not ever know what it was precisely.
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Thanks for providing a window into the challenges of Navy flight ops. By watching the many YouTube videos of carrier takeoffs and landings, one might get the idea it's a routine business.

It is not.
 
The really zen part was from abeam to touchdown…

The fun and amazing part was the stack and general procedures around the boat.

That was a huge part of your reputation. There might 15-20 planes overhead waiting for the launch to end before recovering. The launch was frequently 15-20 planes.

5 to 10 of those launching have some business with one or two overhead, get some fuel right after launch…. Those recovering sequence themselves with the basic notion that the recovery starts for them 3 minutes after the waist cats clear. Not 2:50, not 3:10, but three being the number. After that a plane has to roll into the groove so as to cross the ramp every 35-45 seconds until done. No one cares who or what order so long as the designated offgoing tanker was second to last and the E2 (or E2s) were last.

These 30-40 takeoffs and landings, and 5-10 tanking events all occur without A SINGLE radio transmission. A completely visual event. From a few miles you KNEW if a guy wanted you to cut in front so he had more time to “adjust weight”, for example.

I’m not too snobby about it… but my eyes do roll a bit watching Sunday afternoon pattern antics at a untowered airport! When I lived in Oshkosh, the tower got to know me…. I would land on ALL EIGHT runways right in the middle of 3 or 4 Fox Valley Tech birds doing their landings, was a hoot.
 
Tools said:
5 to 10 of those launching have some business with one or two overhead, get some fuel right after launch…. Those recovering sequence themselves with the basic notion that the recovery starts for them 3 minutes after the waist cats clear. Not 2:50, not 3:10, but three being the number. After that a plane has to roll into the groove so as to cross the ramp every 35-45 seconds until done. No one cares who or what order so long as the designated offgoing tanker was second to last and the E2 (or E2s) were last.

These 30-40 takeoffs and landings, and 5-10 tanking events all occur without A SINGLE radio transmission. A completely visual event. From a few miles you KNEW if a guy wanted you to cut in front so he had more time to “adjust weight”, for example.

I’m not too snobby about it… but my eyes do roll a bit watching Sunday afternoon pattern antics at a untowered airport! When I lived in Oshkosh, the tower got to know me…. I would land on ALL EIGHT runways right in the middle of 3 or 4 Fox Valley Tech birds doing their landings, was a hoot.
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Also applies to the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch :)
 
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