...when they should be saying 'figuratively'.
Hey young people, tell us what you can do!
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zayerpaul
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My 13 y/o son is “literally” the worst offender I believe. I’ve given up trying to correct it. I’m a boomer according to him anyway since I’m over 30.
Fiveslide
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Fiveslide
To be fair, some dictionaries now include the definition of literally that means figuratively. It got so bad we just accepted it, so it wouldn't be bad anymore.
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Velocity173
Whether it’s figurative, hyperbole or informal, the over use of the word gives me a headache…in the literal sense.
It 'literally makes your head explode'.*groan*
flyingcheesehead
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Literally literally doesn't even mean literally any more. Literally.
Well I'd say ****ing instead of literally, but they filter it out!
CowboyJake
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If two people understand what is meant by a word doesn't that make it a word even if it's not in the dictionary? "Dumber" for instance. Who cares if its not a word in the dictionary or politically correct. I think the dumber person is the one telling me its not a word.
Rogue_Ryder
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The 80/20 rule is what you gotta keep in mind when looking at anything. If you're young and have certs/ratings you're going to be in the 1% of that exceptional 20%.
The youth on a whole (80%), seem very disinterested in technical or mechanical things in my experience. These kids grew up with iPads and Xbox instead of building erector sets, model airplanes and tinkering with minibikes. I had an intern from Colorado School of mines (Engineering student) who when directed to install a 1U device in a server rack could not use a screw driver! He was really disinterested in learning how to use hand tools either. I'm sure he could solve all kinds of differential equations but that's like 0-0.1% of most engineering jobs. We do employ some young hard workers that are extremely talented and hard working but it's the exception not the norm, the retention rate of new college hires beyond 2 years is probably under 20%.
They have a completely different view on the world and have a very different work ethic than the older generations. The lesser educated youth (the ones who aren't landing a six figure job at graduation) are VERY APATHETIC to the world, because they feel that they're underpaid, underappreciated and "Can't afford to live".
I find it amazing that in 25 years we went from having people who worked at the grocery store stocking shelves wearing slacks, shirt & tie and conducting themselves with utmost professionalism and now they look like they just rolled out of bed. The "back in the day" service worker greeted customers with a smile, a "yes sir/ma'am" and did whatever they could to serve the customer. Where today they give you attitude like you're inconveniencing them.
The youth on a whole (80%), seem very disinterested in technical or mechanical things in my experience. These kids grew up with iPads and Xbox instead of building erector sets, model airplanes and tinkering with minibikes. I had an intern from Colorado School of mines (Engineering student) who when directed to install a 1U device in a server rack could not use a screw driver! He was really disinterested in learning how to use hand tools either. I'm sure he could solve all kinds of differential equations but that's like 0-0.1% of most engineering jobs. We do employ some young hard workers that are extremely talented and hard working but it's the exception not the norm, the retention rate of new college hires beyond 2 years is probably under 20%.
They have a completely different view on the world and have a very different work ethic than the older generations. The lesser educated youth (the ones who aren't landing a six figure job at graduation) are VERY APATHETIC to the world, because they feel that they're underpaid, underappreciated and "Can't afford to live".
I find it amazing that in 25 years we went from having people who worked at the grocery store stocking shelves wearing slacks, shirt & tie and conducting themselves with utmost professionalism and now they look like they just rolled out of bed. The "back in the day" service worker greeted customers with a smile, a "yes sir/ma'am" and did whatever they could to serve the customer. Where today they give you attitude like you're inconveniencing them.
flyingcheesehead
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Unfortunately that is the world we're living in now. It's getting increasingly difficult to find parts to fix anything any more, and often if you want to be able to fix something it requires expensive specialized tools that only make sense if you're in business fixing that particular thing.
Also, as technology has progressed, it's much more likely that you'll need better skills to fix something. For example, when I had an IT business in the late 90s and early 00s, we kind of did everything. Desktop and server support, network design and installation (and other low-voltage wiring), web design and hosting, you name it we'd do it. Now, there are so many subspecialties in IT that we even have a new C-suite position for one of them (CISO "see-so"), and nobody does everything any more because IT isn't just a department any more, it's a whole division with many different departments in it... And so now, you don't have that one "computer guy" who can do it all any more.
Plus, there have always been people like you're describing who try to go into engineering. They're very book smart and get good grades, but they don't relate their knowledge well to real-world problems and tend to make terrible engineers.
You sound just like the people who used to bag on Gen X (aka, me) back in the day. It is no more true now than it is then for the most part.
The exception is that apathy you're talking about, and it is, frankly, well deserved apathy. Let's take a look at how life has changed since 1984:
1984 1984 in 2024 $ 2024
Median Income $26,230 $79,739 $59,228
Median Home $79,900 $242,896 $412,300
Home/income 3.05 6.96
College Tuition (1yr) $2,344 $7,126 $9,750
Minimum Wage $3.35 $10.18 $7.25
Tuition/Min Wage 699.7 1344.8
So, whereas a home could be purchased for 3.05 years' salary in 1984, now it takes close to 7. And where you could work 13 hours a week and make money for tuition, now it's 26 hours a week (while you're going to school too...) That has resulted in an increase in student loans so that there's enough time to actually go to school, and today's graduates are starting their lives having to work their way out from under a mountain of debt before they take on another mountain of debt, all to see the spoils go to the richest Americans. Can you really fault them for being a wee bit hopeless about life?
There's a grocery chain up here in New England called Market Basket. Employees still wear ties and if you ask where something is they will stop what they are doing and take you there. Clean, reasonably priced a throwback we enjoy.
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Honestly? Yes. Apathy or hopelessness can be a response to unrealistic expectations. Let me tell the tale of my two adult children. One is about to turn 31, the other is 29.
One went to Texas A&M and had a $500 scholarship, the other went to Texas State with a $3K/academic scholarship.
The one that went to TAMU fought to earn a tuition, books, and fees scholarship, graduated in 4 years, and started life debt free. Worked every summer for walk around money during the academic year.
The one that went to Texas State chose the college experience over the degree and lost the $3K scholarship at the end of freshman year. At the end of sophomore year a change in majors from Pre-med to teaching occurred resulting tacking on an extra three semesters. That one took student loans out instead of working since working cramped their social life.
Eight years on, the Aggie is still debt free, has 3+ months salary saved, and invests 15% gross income. Rents because he moves every few years. The Bobcat got married to another teacher, declared Austin is the only place they would live, and bought a flip’d early 70s house in the specific zip code they “had to live in”, at peak pricing because it’s what they “deserved”. Purchase price on that house was more than any house we’ve ever bought and we’ve built two semi-custom homes, the most recent being in 2017. They both work in the same school building, but won’t carpool because they don’t want their peers to think they’re broke. They could have found new construction in a different zip code for under $200K. I know this because I showed them the neighborhood.
Those two finance their lifestyle with debt. They’re debating leaving teaching because it doesn’t pay enough for their lifestyle and they’re tired of working second jobs because total earnings aren’t enough to finance the life they “deserve”.
Both “deserve” a job with at least as much time off as they currently get (Summers off, fall, winter, and spring breaks) and pays senior wide body Captain salaries and has a a fully company funded defined benefit plan that would provide them more income in retirement that they would earn in their highest compensated year of work.
Their expectations are not only unrealistic, those types of jobs don’t exist.
Call me a dream crusher.
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Bro do you even lift
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I have 2 different ones, 2 years apart, raised the same way. Both are hard workers. Both went to public schools, then private colleges.
One graduated a year ago and hates being supported. Moved out to a big city. Struggling to find career work, so working 1-3 hourly low pay jobs to make ends meet. I suggested living with us to save and look for full-time work. Nope.
The other is about to graduate. Tough time finding an internship. Been self-supporting through 2 entrepreneurial enterprises since middle-school and just started a non-profit. He made more money one big-volume week during high school than I did, lol! Wants to live at home after graduation to save money until we kick out.
Two totally different kids, as if they have different genes and raised by different parents. But their generation (themselves and peers/friends) is so different than mine. Hard to understand their thinking about life.
One graduated a year ago and hates being supported. Moved out to a big city. Struggling to find career work, so working 1-3 hourly low pay jobs to make ends meet. I suggested living with us to save and look for full-time work. Nope.
The other is about to graduate. Tough time finding an internship. Been self-supporting through 2 entrepreneurial enterprises since middle-school and just started a non-profit. He made more money one big-volume week during high school than I did, lol! Wants to live at home after graduation to save money until we kick out.
Two totally different kids, as if they have different genes and raised by different parents. But their generation (themselves and peers/friends) is so different than mine. Hard to understand their thinking about life.
Rogue_Ryder
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I can definitely fault them!!
while fed min wage might be $7.25 many states are far above that; and even in states without their own min wage most employers pay more than $7.25. The data point of the median home like I said only holds water in hot markets. There's plenty of affordable homes out there for example here's a house in Schenectady NY for $175K https://www.redfin.com/NY/Schenectady/1762-Hamburg-St-12304/home/92660940 adjusted for inflation that's $61K of 1984 dollars. It's actually a better deal than 1984 considering interest on a mortgage in 84 was 13% on a 30 year note.
The 1980s weren't easy financially. Energy costs weren't cheap, money wasn't cheap, it was just as hard then if not harder. Today it's easier than ever to generate wealth, with remote work, FREE education via the internet (you can learn almost anything online Free but you're not getting a piece of paper eg https://ocw.mit.edu/), you can make Stock Trades online yourself, you can invest in Crypto etc. etc. And if you want to work hard nearly every trade is short handed and will take on apprentices. The opportunities are out there.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah, the old "avocado toast" theory.
Yes, they could have made some better decisions... But why did they make those decisions? FWIW, my wife wanted to be able to teach our kids someday, so we "needed" a house in her school district. Is there a possibility that you don't know all of their reasoning, motivation, or plans?There isn't a teacher in the US right now that isn't debating leaving. I'm married to a teacher, my MIL was a teacher, my FIL and grandmother were guidance counselors, my dad was a professor, and both of our families are full of teachers and have lots of teachers as friends.
Again, there isn't a one of them that's currently active that isn't thinking of leaving. Not one, but TWO of my friends punched out this year, fairly suddenly, and neither of them had a plan, it was just "I cannot possibly do this any more." And they were some of the best, most dedicated, well-respected teachers I know. And when I drove past the local high school today, their sign out front was advertising that they had multiple jobs available. This was unheard of until pretty recently.
For some reason, our society now demonizes teachers, pays them utter crap, and says things like this:
My wife gets *one week* of vacation more than I do per year, but she doesn't get to choose when to take it. (Xmas-new years, spring break, two weeks after school ends, one week after summer school ends before she's back at it for the next year.) She has to deal with a LOT of ornery people, and she makes less than half what I do even though her job is much more difficult and far more important to society.
Random college students cannot make tuition on 12 hours a week any more. That is the point.
Median is median. Why would that only hold water in hot markets?
What is the median income in Schenectady? What is the cost of living?
This is THE best thing about modern life. Learning is so much easier than it was! But good luck getting a job without the piece of paper.
Only if you have money to start with.
2-Bit Speed
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The world could do with a few less teachers and a few more HVAC technicians.
JOhnH
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Please add aircraft AC technicians.
But as for teachers, I think we need more of them, but we need to get rid of the teacher's unions and the Federal Department of Education. Civics should be taught, but not politics.
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Bob Noel
Teachers, yes
Administrators, no
A local school system came up with the extra money “needed” for additional buses to handle additional students (we don’t need to go into why there were more students). How? A couple of administrators resigned suddenly
(insert scene from West Wing about education)
Administrators, no
A local school system came up with the extra money “needed” for additional buses to handle additional students (we don’t need to go into why there were more students). How? A couple of administrators resigned suddenly
(insert scene from West Wing about education)
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3G
At its core one child values the feeling they get from not having to worry about debt, the other values the feelings they get from doing things with their friends and doing things their social group considers “right” or “deserved” and debt isn’t something that should limit their life since it’s “so easy to come by.”
I know these things because we’ve had open, frank, and honest discussions about money and finances. One example would be our daughter’s wedding.
Very early in the process, we were approached about how much we had set aside for them to spend on their wedding. We shared a fairly generous number we had saved for from our daughter’s birth 25 years prior. We also shared that any amount that remained would be a cash gift to them.
Their response was that it was our responsibility to give them the wedding they wanted and they’d rather pay for it themselves than have to work within an arbitrary five figure number than could have paid for a new car in 2022 dollars. The compromise was them being gifted the entire amount. Post-reception, we were asked to help pay for the excess costs, which were nearly double what the cash gift was.
We countered with a 1:1 match offer which they declined “on the principle of it”.
My experience and position is based on a small sample size, and I find painting with broomsticks on complex issues such as generational stereotypes won’t give Picasso-esque results.
What I do know is that nobody ever put a gun to my head and forced me to live within my means while raising two kids in a single income home. We occasionally took on debt to make that happen and those experiences shaped our lives. What we learned was how to live within our financial.
What we also learned is that math isn’t hard, but life choices are. As we matured, we learned the memories we most cherished usually came from doing things that didn’t include the stress of an associated financial burden.
What we also learned was debt hangovers created conflicts after the fact. Someone got blamed because we didn’t have the means to do X today since we were still paying off Y from yesterday. As we grew and learned to live debt free, we had fewer fights because we were making proactive choices instead of being reactive.
These are all personal choices, not choices society or peers made for us.
455 Bravo Uniform
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I offered one of mine to match any scholarships that they would receive with cash. They didn’t bother to apply for any. Different priorities.
2-Bit Speed
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Thank you.
Mortgage interest
1984: 13.87% 30 year fixed.
2024: 6.44% 30 year fixed
The median home being built today has the square footage and amenities that would have put it at the top of the market in 1984.
The measure for housing affordability is the percentage of income required to make a payment, not the raw price of the home. And to keep it apples to apples the comparison should be the 1984 starter home, not the median mc-mansion that defines the prices today.
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2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I wish more 'starter-homes' were being built, but everything seems like a mansion now.
Builders have tried and ended up with unsold homes. Even first time buyers demand the space and amenities they are used to from their parents homes.
2-Bit Speed
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I wish more 'starter-homes' were being built, but everything seems like a mansion now.
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3G
Serious question. What defines a starter home for y’all?
ETA: actual specs/wants/needs
Ex: beds/baths/budget, etc.
I built my own.
Bought the property for 176k in foreclosure in 2012 at the ripe old age of 23. 5 acres lot that had a tear down and a second house on the property. Tore the dilapidated structure with 4 different roof lines down. Having the second house on the property that was over 1,000 SQ ft, I could build an "accessory dwelling". Drew my own plans for a 997.5 SQ ft 1 bed 1 bath no basement under 35' tall house. I had a customer pour the foundation and then spent 3 years doing EVERYTHING myself after my normal job. Framing, Hardie siding, standing seam metal roof, plumbing, electrical, HVAC, drywall, floors, cabinets....all of it. Not a carpenter by trade so it took waaayyyyy longer than it should.
Had a hickory tree die in the process and my neighbor had one fall. Had that turned into my floors. The house I tore down had 8' tall interior doors with jambs leaning in the corner. The owner that bought it was a former builder who lost his rear in the '08 crisis and must've had them for a house he was supposed to build. So in case Shaq wants to hang out, I got him covered. Perfect size house for me and the dog. Only problem is I've run out of wall space to hang the elk, moose,deer, and bear....and the problems that brings getting a lady in the house. Refinanced in 2016 and got a 3.99 interest rate.
It was the perfect set of circumstances at the perfect time for me to take advantage.
2-Bit Speed
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I think 3 bedrooms and 1 & 1/2 baths, though we could make do with two bedrooms. Budget? Under 150k. 120k would be nice.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
My current house was the first one I bought. 1500 sq ft, 3 bedroom, 2 bath, detached 30X30 garage all on a 1.76 acre ranchette. I consider that a starter house.
My 2nd house is 2000 sq ft, 4 bedroom, 3 bath, attached 2 car garage with a detached 15X20 storage unit plus a 18X36 2 story barn all on 3 acres. My wife and I will move into it when my mom no longer lives there.
2-Bit Speed
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2-3 bedrooms, 1600sf, 1 3/4 bath (1 master, 3/4 for rest of house). Basic kitchen appliances and cabinets. Car port or single garage. None of the upgraded trim, fru-fru countertops and jetted bathtubs. Unfinished basement (if you are in a basement area, otherwise crawlspace). Budget is of course location specific.
Nobody would buy it (in the new home market).
Interesting report on both characteristics of home buyers and homes being bought. Doesn't support the 'millenials can't afford houses' trope. Millenials and older gen-Z are pretty much where you would think they are in the market.
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2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I'd buy it.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Want to sell us your current house when you move out? It sounds perfect!
I guess I should tell ya, I have many feral cats on the property. They go through a 15 lb bag of dry food in about 3 weeks.
But I do not have a mouse problem.!!
SkyChaser
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Unfortunately, you are right for the vast majority of people in mine and @2-Bit Speed's age range. I would love to buy the house described and spend the next ten or so years in it. We're renting a house that almost exactly matches that description (minus the garage), and would probably have offered to buy it except that the yard needs ~$75k in regrading and fill to prevent it from turning into a 8" deep lake every time it floods.
As far as Millennials and Gen Z still buying houses - they are. My younger sister bought her own house, but she leveraged herself far beyond what I would consider a comfortable level to do so - and most people around my age that are homeowners did the same. She has a 3 bed, 2 bath home with an attached garage on a postage stamp lot. It was the base model and the cheapest she could find in the area that wasn't falling apart. It still came with granite countertops and a bunch of other upgrades which made it more expensive than she was hoping for and would have been glad to do without.
We had a feral cat problem at our last apartment. It was so bad, two of them came into our house and decided to live with us.
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I don't think anyone can build new construction anywhere in the US for $120K today outside of Habitat for Humanity or a barndo. I've actually helped build more than a few and there are some nice HfH opportunities out there if you qualify. There seems to be new construction for as low as $180K in the Jacksonville area, here's one. Townhomes are another option, otherwise that leaves the resale market.
The first home I bought was in 2001; it was a 10-year old spec 3/2/2 1680 sq ft. In Edmond, OK, that house cost $113,000. Structurally sound just needed interior paint. Over the six years we owned it, we painted it, carpeted it, and did a few other cosmetic things and sold it for $143K.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
Can't quite call that 'as low as' since it's well over my budget, but I appreciate the gesture.
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I understand and that’s the limit of new construction, all of today’s costs have to be baked in.
Looking broadly at pre-owned homes and town homes there do seem to be some options in your budget space that aren’t mobile homes. They’re just much harder to find and your competition is the amateur flipper who thinks they turn it in 30 days at a 30% markup.
A trusted realtor may be able to help find short sales, REOs, or other premarket opportunities that your not seeing on the public facing sites, and that’s one of my biggest gripes about MLS’. They artificially limit the pre-market listing visibility to members only.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
Might sound bad but...
Fwiw, when I built my house which is considerably smaller than what you're looking for. Materials alone were 80k and that was 12 years ago. My labor was free. Granted some things were upgrades from standard, but still gonna be hard pressed to find new construction on that range regardless of locale.
To echo @TCABM finding a good trusted realtor can help. They did for me and a few friends. But this market truly does suck. And the mls system really favors "insiders". By the time it gets listed publicly, the "deals" have been picked over.
Sweat equity, luck, and timing was the only way I was able to get what I have.
Maybe @Half Fast is bored in his retirement and wants to general a house build. Find a plot of land. Find some plans. Build away. House plan sites will give you a cost to build report.
To echo @TCABM finding a good trusted realtor can help. They did for me and a few friends. But this market truly does suck. And the mls system really favors "insiders". By the time it gets listed publicly, the "deals" have been picked over.
Sweat equity, luck, and timing was the only way I was able to get what I have.
Maybe @Half Fast is bored in his retirement and wants to general a house build. Find a plot of land. Find some plans. Build away. House plan sites will give you a cost to build report.