It never ends, does it?
Any Hunters in Here?
- Thread starter SoonerAviator
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It never ends, does it?
“Just how many guns do you need, anyway?”
“One of each. I’m collecting the entire set.”
midwestpa24
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"Yes"
sansoneservices
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Yeah, I built a AR-10 in .243 bull brrl with a ridiculously expensive Japanese Scope. Very flat trajectory and very fast follow-up shots
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Bob Noel
Really hard to beat good glass
March scope? My preferred long range competition scope. However, Schmidt and Bender make some eyewatering pricy optics...but outstanding. They came out with one designed for long range target shooting but only available in the European market...6.5 AMU's. My current March Majesta was 4.5 AMU's and now S&B one ups them....sheesh!
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SoonerAviator
I went with a carbon fiber barrel from Proof Research on mine, paired with a Zeiss S3 optic that isn't top of the line but certainly not terrible. Japanese Schott glass.
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3G
If you want a .30-30, buy it. It’s not really a target shooting caliber, it’s a 100-yard deer in the brush gun.
For a lever-action fun gun, look at .357/.38spl chamberings, then look at SASS Cowboy Action Shooting and you’ll wind up with a coach gun, a lever action, and two SAAs shooting bunny fart .38 loads and it’ll be the best fun you’ve ever had.
Armament for CAS pales in comparison to the expenses of owning and maintaining the horse....
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3G
True, but the horse is a side match in most CAS matches if it’s even offered.
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SoonerAviator
I went ahead and picked it up. Seemed too good a deal to pass up. I doubt I'll be going after deer with it, but I've never shot a lever gun, much less a .30-30, so if I don't end up liking it for iron sight target shooting, I can likely sell it for more than what I've got into it and find one a bit smaller in caliber.
sansoneservices
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I should have used your barrel. My rifle is heavy, put a good sling on it but still would hate to have to carry it around all day
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I'm sure the CF-wrapped barrel saves a bit of weight (20" barrel), but it was still right at 10lbs prior to mounting the optic. I had a pretty long SLR handguard as well as the Magpul PRS Gen3 stock which certainly don't help shed any weight. The Accu-Tac ARCA Bipod adds another bit of weight as well, but I only keep the bipod on for shooting from the bench. It'll be the only AR10 I build unless I get bored and build another upper for it in a different caliber. I'd like to see what it can do at 600-800yds as a gas gun, but I haven't been anywhere with a range that far out.
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Albany Tom
I would think in either 308 or 243 it should be great. I had a 223 that at 300 was easily 1.5" without anything special going on. From my friends who shoot longer range, as you probably already know, part of the thing is making sure you don't drop to transonic at 600+. I'd think that's pretty easy for either 308 or 243. Apparently tricky with 223, as it takes something long that may not be magazine feedable. And my info is probably 10+ years old, so maybe all out of date and it's easier now. Good friend of mine used to shoot benchrest with an AR platform. Some thought that was weird, but he had a lot of fun with it, and at the end of the day that's all I think matters.
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3G
Like a plane, rifles need to be appropriate for the mission.
A lightweight bolt action rifle for mountain stalking is different than a battle rifle. The battle rifle can be adapted to the mountain stalking mission but it may not be the perfect mountain stalking rifle.
Everything is a compromise. Most pilots can’t eek out max performance from their planes and most shooters can’t eek out max performance from the rifle they have.
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Bob Noel
It's my understanding that the real trick of long range shooting is reading the wind. The error caused by transonic transition is completely dwarfed by screwing up the wind.
CJones
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I read an article a few years ago when I was getting into western hunting. They did the math on how much a 5 mph wind misjudgment or having your gun 5* off-level when taking the shot, etc. impacted a shot placement a different yardages out to something like 600yds. Basically I decided that I probably shouldn't be shooting at an animal much beyond a couple hundred yards due to the risk of maiming vs killing. It was interesting to actually quantify how factors beyond "scope not zeroed" or "bad shooting mechanics" impact a shot at distance.
Yep. And that doesn’t even consider how the wind can easily be different 600 yards from the shooter due to trees, hills, etc.
Varmint shooters tend to get very good at it, but for them it’s usually a miss or a kill. With large game there’s a greater likelihood of a shot that merely wounds.
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Wind does play a factor, as does projectile shape.
When you start to get real far out there, wind direction and velocity can change significantly so you’re reading the wind at near, mid, and long range.
Ballistic performance is also a factor, but is more easily controlled.
Long range hunting really does stop at 400-600 yards because you run out of kinetic energy until you step up to a cartridge that destroys the harvest.
Absolutely! However, you must start with a load that will deliver the bullet at supersonic velocity for the most predictability. I shoot 600 and 1000yd comps on paper target for score (NRA High Power F-Class, open division). One class, TR (target rifle) must use either .223 or .308 caliber in the typical NATO chambering. In either one a heavy for caliber bullet is needed to hold supersonic out to 1000yds; commonly a 105/108gr in .223 and 200gr in .308 are used. At 1000yds the .308 rules that division, for obvious reasons. Our targets are 6'x6' (7.2 MOA across) and spaced about 18"-24" apart. I have had winds that required a hold on the edge of the target frame with near 2 minutes windage on the gun to hit center and I shoot a 7mm 180gr Berger bullet at 2870fps muzzle velocity and 1720's at the target at 1000yds. A change in wind velocity is usually easy to spot but a direction change is harder and can push you a couple of minutes away from your desired point of impact. You can tell when shooter get caught out by such....there is much cursing/gnashing of teeth and a signal that I should hold fire and reassess the situation. LOL
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SoonerAviator
6.5CM is a popular caliber for the 600-1000yd guys as well. Slightly better ballistics than .308, but lower bullet weight. Of course there's all sorts of PRC and ARC calibers as well, but they aren't quite as prevalent it seems.
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SoonerAviator
Yeah, the AR308 build was sort of a do-all compromise when I first started this thread. Not great at anything (aside from putting lots of ammo downrange rapidly), but good enough to lug to a tree stand or hunting blind. Wouldn't want to trek miles through the woods or up a mountain side with it just due to weight. Decent platform for feral hogs, especially if on a tripod. Fun for use at the range. It's not going to win any long-range precision competitions, but with good enough DOPE it should be respectable for a gas gun. For true hunting, a dedicated lightweight bolt action is still generally the supreme choice. For long range targets, bolt actions still win, but you're generally shooting on a much heavier chassis that often outweigh my AR, not to mention barrels that are 24"+ depending on the caliber.
sansoneservices
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Yes, 6.5mm is the current leader for the benchrest shooters. A decade ago 6mm was their choice but the ballistic coefficient is best with length of the projectile. The longest and heaviest .243(6mm) is 100gr boat tail which requires a slow burning powder and 22" barrel
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Snorting his way across the USA
It's interesting to follow the story of the AR15/M16. In a bid to replace the M14 with something cheaper to produce and more reliable, Eugene Stoner came up with the AR10 concept which was a direct replacement chambered in 7.62 mm NATO. During this process, he had come to the realization that any caliber more than is needed to kill a deer is overkill for an assault rifle, and developed the follow up model chambered in .223 which was the AR15. Initially, the Army wasn't interested but the Air Force was, and procured some AR15s. Then the Army took a closer look, and realized that a lighter round means a lighter gun, and lighter ammo; and that more ammo of adequate power is more valuable than less ammo of a greater caliber hence the AR15 was adopted as the M16.
By the mid 60's the Russians started getting their hands on M16s, and said da, idea great, me want too so they developed a new 5.45 mm round ballistically similar to the 5.56 mm NATO and adopted the new rifle as the AK74. It seems like it would have been smarter to just chamber it in 5.56 but I think they had visions of mass exportation of the rifle that they did with the AKM, and wanted to ensure they sold the ammunition that went with it.
Yeah...the 6.5CM is a great performer for getting new shooters interested in shooting games...reasonable recoil, good bullet choices (as in decent ballistic coefficient and precision in manufacture) and pretty decent factory match ammunition. It received much hyperbole by the marginally informed firearms journalists. A purchase of a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor got me, and many I know, into competitive shooting sports. However, there are much better 6.5/.264 cartridges for longer range shooting. Truth is, you will never see a 6.5/.264 on the line at any major 1000yd competition unless it a new shooter dipping their feet in the water. Nowadays, the 7mm/.300 rule. Reason being is that if you miss a wind change with the heavy bullet 7's/.300's, it will cost a point, maybe two; If you miss the same change in a 6.5 with a 142gr bullet at top reasonable velocity, it will cost double the points of the larger calibers. At state, regional, national comps, many times a single point separates the champion from second place. Commonly the top 15 at a national is separated by 3-4 points out of 1800 possible over 3 days of shooting and many positions within that range are decided by tiebreaking X count (the X ring is .5 moa across so 5" diameter at 1000yds/ 3" at 600yds). You can see why a 6.5 is a non-starter for a serious shooter.
That being said, when a new shooter that may marginally be interested in shooting out to long range (considered 600 yds and beyond) and does not load their own ammo, asks me what rifle to buy, I usually suggest a 6.5 Creedmoor because of the many rifle choices/styles and the widely available high quality factory match ammunition. It is like the C182 of chamberings...not the best at any one task but pretty damn good at most of them.
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Funny thing about the 6.5 Creedmoor...I shot my smallest ever 100yd 3 shot group with a Ruger Precision Rifle, JARD trigger (of all things.. ), Long Rifles Incorporated aftermarket barrel chambered by Chad Dixon using my own JGS designed reamer running a Cauterucio 141.5gr custom bullet at 2780's fps. It measured .084" confirmed under a jeweler's binocular microscope (he was a friend and shooting aficionado who suggested we measure it). Sometime a a blind hog finds an acorn LOL. Of course, if this was benchrest competition, 5 or 10 shot groups are the norm and a 3 shot group 'don't mean $hi+'.
), Long Rifles Incorporated aftermarket barrel chambered by Chad Dixon using my own JGS designed reamer running a Cauterucio 141.5gr custom bullet at 2780's fps. It measured .084" confirmed under a jeweler's binocular microscope (he was a friend and shooting aficionado who suggested we measure it). Sometime a a blind hog finds an acorn LOL. Of course, if this was benchrest competition, 5 or 10 shot groups are the norm and a 3 shot group 'don't mean $hi+'.
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SoonerAviator
Lol, at a certain point I'm sure "statistically significant" volume of shots comes into play, but I wouldn't be able to hit .084" other than sheer blind luck and even my luck isn't that good!Funny thing about the 6.5 Creedmoor...I shot my smallest ever 100yd 3 shot group with a Ruger Precision Rifle, JARD trigger (of all things..
Certainly...a fourth shot could have screwed the pooch!
On the other hand, my current competition chambering is a 7mm Sherman short magnum (a wildcat with headstamped brass available from Sherman Wildcats based off of the 7 SAUM as a parent case). With a 180 Berger hybrid and Alliant RL-16 powder in the mid/upper 2800 fps muzzle velocity range, it just plain shoots across a wide powder charge range. I just performed a 600yd ladder test shooting 6 different charge weights over a full grain of powder/ three shots per charge, and every shot would have been inside the X ring at 600 yds. Stupid precision. Typically I would find a precision range covering .3-.4gr but a full grain is unusual.
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Aww heck... on an F-class open front rest/rear bag combination (essentially the same as a bench rest set up...however, we compete in the prone position) you would be surprised how small you could shoot with a few minutes of instruction on the nuances of that set-up.
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Bob Noel
Locally I shoot a 200yd rimfire benchrest match. Very very challenging swirling wind conditions. For the match I put out driveway markers with plastic ribbon on them. It's fun to watch people try to make sense of these wind flags pointing at each other...
It's supposed to be good practice for 1000yd centerfire.
It's supposed to be good practice for 1000yd centerfire.
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3G
It can be. .22LR presents a different challenge than .17HMR.
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SoonerAviator
You'd be surprised at how bad a shot I can be, lol. I'm waiting for the Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales to come around and I might take a leap at a KRG Bravo or X-Ray chassis to build up a bolt-action rifle for light PRS. I do like the smooth action on my Tikka, but I don't recall seeing many barreled actions from Tikka.
I have a KRG Whiskey (3?..IIRC), Borden Mountaineer action, 26” medium palma Bartlein 5r barrel in 6 Creedmoor throated for 105 and 108 Berger’s. I shoot it suppressed in a prone 600yd ‘tactical match’ for fun. Get a suppressor for your build….it makes any 6mm a creampuff to shoot. Fun little rifle.
I shot my 7 Sherman at a 600 yd team match today as a warmup for the Texas State Rifle Association midrange championship individuals. The rifle is dialed in, the nut behind the trigger needs the proper torque though.
X ring is 3” and 10 ring 6” in diameter.
g
X ring is 3” and 10 ring 6” in diameter.
g
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SoonerAviator
We have a new Scheels opening up in 2 weeks here in Tulsa, so I may see what they have for MDT and Howa chassis as well to compare to KRG. I have a whisper pickle in mind already, at least for the .30 cal stuff. HuxWrx Flow 762 Ti, which is a printed Titanium suppressor. Have their QD muzzle brakes on the AR10 and Tikka to be able to move it back and forth more easily. It works work on smaller calibers, but it may make sense to get a second one for stuff like 5.56 and below.
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I'm impressed no matter the torque on that nut, lol. Consistent shots inside 6" at 600yds is still fantastic. Do you dial or hold for windage?I shot my 7 Sherman at a 600 yd team match today as a warmup for the Texas State Rifle Association midrange championship individuals. The rifle is dialed in, the nut behind the trigger needs the proper torque though.
X ring is 3” and 10 ring 6” in diameter.
View attachment 134055View attachment 134056g
I may put some windage on the scope if I am holding more than 2 minutes from center. On a ‘bullseye’ target it is easier to hold vertical if the aim point is closer to center. Usually at 1000yds, in wind of 8mph or more cross wind value, I’ll put a minute and a half or so on the scope then hold off from there.I'm?
These are my three targets from today’s matches. No points lost in 5 consecutive matches…..and I’m still 6th overall!!! Tough frikin crowd. This match does draw many national champions. Goes to show what well tuned rifles are capable of. The leader is clean with 46 X’s. That represents 46/60 shots in a 3” circle at 600yds in 6-12mph winds. Stupid precision.