Getting "Trapped" By AME's Refusing Fast Track

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What about the AME who says fine to a consult THEN submits and defers anyway? Seen that. The airman was CLEAR about the consult. Said he could issue, started the application THEN deferred.

What then?

Faa didn’t care.

Took 18 months to clear that one up.
 
Lindberg said:
Does it?

"If the AME is unsure of any of the above criteria, DEFER and note in Block 60."
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Yes, they are yes/no questions, binary, one or the other…i.e. “black and white.”
 
Tools said:
What about the AME who says fine to a consult THEN submits and defers anyway? Seen that. The airman was CLEAR about the consult. Said he could issue, started the application THEN deferred.

What then?

Faa didn’t care.

Took 18 months to clear that one up.
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How about naming the AME, as a service to others?
 
Let’s just say if you’re in the Pensacola area, feel free to give me a ring! Happy to share my opinion.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Then what is the point of FAA provided check lists like the attached? Seems pretty black and white.
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Uh…..no actually…and the audit rate is 100%. The AME has to therefore substantiate each assertion. He gets “second guessed” by the agency.

For that list I have to get every past record (1), 10 year pharmacy report, evaluate the candidate for all the symptoms in the lists in item (1). Criminal background check, too…..That’s about two hours’ work and it can’t be free. If maybe you think it should be…that is one “entitled “ person.

I’d say, an orthopedist isn’t likely to be comfortable with ANY of that, and is UNLIKELY. To undertake any of that…..

So, throw stones, yeah, that’s the ticket. With every post you display how minimal your understanding really is…..or you could see that the right way is to pose the question first.

“Only black and white to the simple…..”

B
 
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bbchien said:
Uh…..no actually…and the audit rate is 100%. The AME has to therefore substantiate each assertion. He gets “second guessed” by the agency.

For that list I have to get every past record (1), 10 year pharmacy report, evaluate the candidate for all the symptoms in the lists in item (1). Criminal background check, too…..That’s about two hours’ work and it can’t be free. If maybe you think it should be…that is one “entitled “ person.

I’d say, an orthopedist isn’t likely to be comfortable with ANY of that, and is UNLIKELY. To undertake any of that…..

So, throw stones, yeah, that’s the ticket. With every post you display how minimal your understanding really is…..or you could see that the right way is to pose the question first.

“Only black and white to the simple…..”

B
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Wow, you’ve changed my mind. Thanks for setting me straight!

Oh, wait. You continue to demonstrate my point from the beginning.

“I think the fact that there is so much confusion, misinterpretation, misinformation, misunderstanding of the entire SI process is telling in itself. When so many AMEs don’t fully understand it, that’s a sad commentary when the pilots are 100% dependent upon the AME to navigate this process.”

You also demonstrate that the FAA has zero desire to “fast track” anything for certain situations if it’s a 100% audit rate as you say, even though they purport to.

The only way the FAA could make it more “simple” would be to just replace the “Yes /No” with “Defer/Defer.” At least it would be an honest representation of their deeds va words.

By the way, you and the other AMEs volunteered for this role, it wasn’t mandated upon you. If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility, don’t represent that you can handle it. Leave it to competent Drs and ones that actually enjoy helping getting more pilots in the air vs making that process more difficult due to lack of knowledge or zero passion for aviation.
 
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UTLonghorn_1979 said:
You also demonstrate that the FAA has zero desire to “fast track” anything for certain situations if it’s a 100% audit rate as you say, even though they purport to.
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what percentage of pilot certificate issuances do you think they audit?
 
MauleSkinner said:
what percentage of pilot certificate issuances do you think they audit?
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According to Dr. Chien, 100% on the subject matter...

bbchien said:
Uh…..no actually…and the audit rate is 100%. The AME has to therefore substantiate each assertion. He gets “second guessed” by the agency.

For that list I have to get every past record (1), 10 year pharmacy report, evaluate the candidate for all the symptoms in the lists in item (1). Criminal background check, too…..That’s about two hours’ work and it can’t be free. If maybe you think it should be…that is one “entitled “ person.

I’d say, an orthopedist isn’t likely to be comfortable with ANY of that, and is UNLIKELY. To undertake any of that…..

So, throw stones, yeah, that’s the ticket. With every post you display how minimal your understanding really is…..or you could see that the right way is to pose the question first.

“Only black and white to the simple…..”

B
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UTLonghorn_1979 said:
". Leave it to competent Drs and ones that actually enjoy helping getting more pilots in the air vs making that process more difficult due to lack of knowledge or zero passion for aviation."
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Actually, this pretty much describes Dr. B. Clearly, you are unfamiliar with his work. Your ignorance is showing...
 
Mason said:
Actually, this pretty much describes Dr. B. Clearly, you are unfamiliar with his work. Your ignorance is showing...
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Dr. B doesn’t encompass the entirety of the population of AMEs. Your ignorance and naïveté is glaring.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Dr. B doesn’t encompass the entirety of the population of AMEs. Your ignorance and naïveté is glaring.
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When you wrote "By the way, you and the other AMEs volunteered for this role, it wasn’t mandated upon you. If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility, don’t represent that you can handle it," it sounded like you were including him in that generalization, which would be a gross misrepresentation of reality. If that's not what you meant, then a better choice of pronouns would have been in order.
 
Palmpilot said:
When you wrote "By the way, you and the other AMEs volunteered for this role, it wasn’t mandated upon you. If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility, don’t represent that you can handle it," it sounded like you were including him in that generalization, which would be a gross misrepresentation of reality. If that's not what you meant, then a better choice of pronouns would have been in order.
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Is he an AME, yes, does he represent the entirety of that population, no. Hence “you and the other AMEs” and use of “If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility…” vs “if you don’t…,” the inference was pretty clear, but I understand your point.
 
bbchien said:
That’s about two hours’ work and it can’t be free. If maybe you think it should be…that is one “entitled “ person.
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I didn't see anyone claiming it should be free, but maybe I missed it.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Is he an AME, yes, does he represent the entirety of that population, no. Hence “you and the other AMEs” and use of “If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility…” vs “if you don’t…,” the inference was pretty clear.
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It wasn't as clear as you think it was.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
What I “think” doesn’t matter. It’s what the practice is, and a 100% audit rate is duplicated work, a waste of time and resources.

But that’s the gov for you.

Man, guess I was wrong in thinking pilots tend to be limited gov, liberty loving people. Didn’t realize the flying community, or at least on this forum, has been overrun by a bunch of big gov loving libtards.
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You make assumptions about what people think with no basis in fact. Your ignorance and naïveté is glaring.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Then what is the point of FAA provided check lists like the attached? Seems pretty black and white.
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Wow, I took one look at that form and no wonder AME’s are deferring. Holy cow. That checklist is as “black and white” as mud.

“This condition has unresolved sequelae or continued symptoms severe enough to
interfere with safety related duties”

Go ahead and say no and put your AME designation on the line and possibly open yourself to getting sued if the guy balls up a plane. Or worse.

“Does the AME have ANY concerns…”

I sure would.

“If ANY of these answers falls into the yes or gray category, the AME must defer.”

So basically you have to have a perfect history from the applicant and literally every single item must be crystal clear or it’s your butt in a sling.

And you wonder why AME’s aren’t doing this.
 
Tools said:
What about the AME who says fine to a consult THEN submits and defers anyway? Seen that. The airman was CLEAR about the consult. Said he could issue, started the application THEN deferred.
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You just changed the scenario entirely within one paragraph.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Man, guess I was wrong in thinking pilots tend to be limited gov, liberty loving people. Didn’t realize the flying community, or at least on this forum, has been overrun by a bunch of big gov loving libtards.
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We were going to get to as hominems eventually. And here we are.
 
Better, how in the world would an administrative (leastwise insofar as aviation is concerned) doc have any clue WHAT those safety related duties are?

In that respect, how in the world COULD they ever be held liable?

The “system” is THAT flawed.

@mryan75 I know I did. I did that by asking why more than once.
 
The context of the question is fundamentally AME “responsibility”.

The venue is administrative medicine, as evidenced by the fact the FAA touts they don’t “treat”.

My assertion is that the system makes it impossible for this to work. As evidenced by asking AMEs to make decisions in areas they are not even administratively trained. It’s a catch 22.

This is the FAAs fault. AMEs are going to bear the burden. I think the best question is why a certified MD or DO would ever want to participate?

Now, the AMA doesn’t really care if a doc ruins a career, no threat to life. The FAA doesn’t care either, they’re “protecting the public”. And NOBODY cares about your hobby.

I believe this is going to start to change.
 
mryan75 said:
Wow, I took one look at that form and no wonder AME’s are deferring. Holy cow. That checklist is as “black and white” as mud.
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. Based on some of posts here, I can see how answering a yes/no question can be challenging.
 
Tools said:
I believe this is going to start to change.
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To be fair, it already has, via Sport Pilot and Basic Med. But there's still a long, loooong way to go. The FAA moves at a glacial pace, and we'd still be waiting for Basic Med had not Congress shoved it down their collective throat.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
The only way the FAA could make it more “simple” would be to just replace the “Yes /No” with “Defer/Defer.” At least it would be an honest representation of their deeds va words.
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You seem to be confusing binary decisions with easy or simple decisions. Do you have a substance abuse problem? That's a yes/no question. And yet, it's not black and white, is it? What's the simple answer? How can the AME be sure? Remember, that's a factual determination, and sometimes applicants lie or dissemble....
 
Lindberg said:
You seem to be confusing binary decisions with easy or simple decisions. Do you have a substance abuse problem? That's a yes/no question. And yet, it's not black and white, is it? What's the simple answer? How can the AME be sure? Remember, that's a factual determination, and sometimes applicants lie or dissemble....
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Your example is a subjective question. Unlike the questions:

1) Does the individual have any additional mental health diagnosis or symptoms such as bipolar disorder, psychosis, neuro-developmental disorder, autism, personality disorder, somatoform disorder, impulse control disorders, substance misuse or disorder, eating disorder, or any diagnosis NOT listed as acceptable?
2) Any history of suicidal (or homicidal) ideation, attempt(s), or self-harm behavior (such as cutting) ever in their life?
3) Any history of an involuntary mental health or substance use evaluation (including involuntary transport) and/or court-ordered treatment?

And so on…YES or NO. Simple objective criteria. Any question that the Dr. can’t answer directly is answered by the treating physician's reports resulting in another YES or NO response.

Pilots are ALWAYS responsible for self-assessing fitness to fly, so saying applicants lie isn't really relevant to this discussion. Plenty of pilots are lying to avoid ever getting to this scrutiny or situation.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Your example is a subjective question. Unlike the questions:

1) Does the individual have any additional mental health diagnosis or symptoms such as bipolar disorder, psychosis, neuro-developmental disorder, autism, personality disorder, somatoform disorder, impulse control disorders, substance misuse or disorder, eating disorder, or any diagnosis NOT listed as acceptable?
2) Any history of suicidal (or homicidal) ideation, attempt(s), or self-harm behavior (such as cutting) ever in their life?
3) Any history of an involuntary mental health or substance use evaluation (including involuntary transport) and/or court-ordered treatment?

And so on…YES or NO. Simple objective criteria. Any question that the Dr. can’t answer directly is answered by the treating physician's reports resulting in another YES or NO response.

Pilots are ALWAYS responsible for self-assessing fitness to fly, so saying applicants lie isn't really relevant to this discussion. Plenty of pilots are lying to avoid ever getting to this scrutiny or situation.
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Not that simple…for #1, either “yes” or “no” is a diagnosis of symptoms or lack thereof.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not that simple…for #1, either “yes” or “no” is a diagnosis of symptoms or lack thereof.
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The whole reason the person got to this point is because of a diagnosis of "ANXIETY, DEPRESSION, AND RELATED CONDITIONS.” So, yes, it is a simple question of whether they have been diagnosed with one of the listed, or unlisted “additional" diagnoses. This comes from the same persons(s) that diagnosed them with the original condition. The only response is YES OR NO. SIMPLE.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Yep, and it’s “ad hominems.”
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Says someone who started a sentence with a period. You’re not making yourself look any smarter with all of this. For quite a long time now the more I listen to you, the more I understand why people like you have a hard time getting a medical.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
The whole reason the person got to this point is because of a diagnosis of "ANXIETY, DEPRESSION, AND RELATED CONDITIONS.” So, yes, it is a simple question of whether they have been diagnosed with one of the listed, or unlisted “additional" diagnoses. This comes from the same persons(s) that diagnosed them with the original condition. The only response is YES OR NO. SIMPLE.
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No, the form asks if the AME sees additional symptoms or not.
 
mryan75 said:
Says someone who started a sentence with a period. You’re not making yourself look any smarter with all of this. For quite a long time now the more I listen to you, the more I understand why people like you have a hard time getting a medical.
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The “.” was a laughing emoji that didn’t come through, so you can blame the content/coding people here for that.

I’m shocked “people like you” ever get one.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, the form asks if the AME sees additional symptoms or not.
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No, it doesn’t. The full text…again:

1. Does the individual have any additional mental health diagnosis or symptoms such as bipolar disorder, psychosis, neuro-developmental disorder, autism, personality disorder, somatoform disorder, impulse control disorders, substance misuse or disorder, eating disorder, or any diagnosis NOT listed as acceptable?

It’s asking the AME if the applicant has a history of other recorded diagnoses or symptoms. Not to diagnose anything. It’s a YES OR NO question.

Have fun.

1727808655433.png
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
Wow, you’ve changed my mind. Thanks for setting me straight!

Oh, wait. You continue to demonstrate my point from the beginning.

“I think the fact that there is so much confusion, misinterpretation, misinformation, misunderstanding of the entire SI process is telling in itself. When so many AMEs don’t fully understand it, that’s a sad commentary when the pilots are 100% dependent upon the AME to navigate this process.”

You also demonstrate that the FAA has zero desire to “fast track” anything for certain situations if it’s a 100% audit rate as you say, even though they purport to.

The only way the FAA could make it more “simple” would be to just replace the “Yes /No” with “Defer/Defer.” At least it would be an honest representation of their deeds va words.

By the way, you and the other AMEs volunteered for this role, it wasn’t mandated upon you. If an AME doesn’t want the responsibility, don’t represent that you can handle it. Leave it to competent Drs and ones that actually enjoy helping getting more pilots in the air vs making that process more difficult due to lack of knowledge or zero passion for aviation.
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This really is the counter argument of a child to what Bruce wrote.
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
1) Does the individual have any additional mental health diagnosis or symptoms such as bipolar disorder, psychosis, neuro-developmental disorder, autism, personality disorder, somatoform disorder, impulse control disorders, substance misuse or disorder, eating disorder, or any diagnosis NOT listed as acceptable?
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“…or symptoms…”

If you think it’s “simple” for a doctor to make this determination in a 30-minute general exam of someone they’ve never met before, I genuinely don’t know what to say.
 
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