Tandem Aerobatic Planes

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egothrasher

Filing Flight Plan
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Dec 22, 2018
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egothrasher
Looking for suggestions for slightly aerobatic planes, simple maneuvers like loops and rolls, nothing crazy. Two person airplane that I can have some fun in but at the same time able to fly places when not messing around. Some planes I've come across, to give you an idea of what I'm looking at.

Blackshape Gabriel/ Prime
TL Sport Stream and Stream Turbo
Blackwing 635RG (I know its not tandem but still looks like a pretty aircraft)

Thanks!
 
I'm biased because I own one and spent all my money on it, but I think the Skybolt is a pretty good performing airplane for the money. I was between a Skybolt and an RV4 when I was ready to buy. Found the right Skybolt first.
 
Arbiter419 said:
I was between a Skybolt and an RV4 when I was ready to buy. Found the right Skybolt first.
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I built and fly an RV-4 and if I live long enough my next build will probably be a Skybolt. Maybe we can work something out :cool:

Nauga,
who wood
 
Harmon Rocket
F1 Rocket
Turbine Legend
Gamebird
 
Yak-52
 
Decathlon and Citabria are by far the most numerous certified aerobatic aircraft.

If you go experimental, just about any biplane will do it.

AFAIK all the RV series will do gentleman's acro.

Most aerobatic aircraft are tandem taildraggers. Side-by-sides are the exception.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Decathlon and Citabria are by far the most numerous certified aerobatic aircraft.

If you go experimental, just about any biplane will do it.

AFAIK all the RV series will do gentleman's acro.

Most aerobatic aircraft are tandem taildraggers. Side-by-sides are the exception.
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RV-9, 10, and 12 are not aerobatic. Or at least not built for it.
 
StraightnLevel said:
What is "gentleman's acro"? I was under the impression that if the plane is not certified for acrobatics, you're violating the CFR to attempt to perform acrobatic maneuvers....?
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What FAR is that?

Remember that an RV is not certified (for the most part)
 
StraightnLevel said:
What is "gentleman's acro"? I was under the impression that if the plane is not certified for acrobatics, you're violating the CFR to attempt to perform acrobatic maneuvers....?
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"Gentleman's acro" is generally understood to mean simple positive g aerobatics, i.e. loop, aileron or barrel rolls, hammerhead, split-s, spins, etc.

New production aircraft must be certificated in the acrobatic category to do any aerobatics, and you're limited to those maneuvers specifically approved. However, older (CAR3 certificated) aircraft have no such limitation; it's perfectly legal to loop and roll a J-3 Cub (whether it's smart is another matter; obviously pilot skill plays a huge factor). Homebuilts, like the RV series, can do any aerobatics that were performed and logged during the initial (or subsequent) phase 1 test period.
 
Thank you all for the replies, and its been a pleasure discovering all these models. The turbine legend really caught my eye, as did the RV8. Does anyone by chance know which of the Vans aircraft asisde from the RV8 are aerobatic rated?
 
StraightnLevel said:
Basic airworthiness. If the plane is not aerobatic rated, it is not airworthy for a mission involving aerobatics, correct?
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What’s the FAR you are referencing?
 
"Acrobatic" is a category of type certification, like normal or utility. An aerobatic aircraft will typically be certified as both normal and utility acrobatic, with different operating limitations in each. For example, post-2006 Decathlons have a MGTW of 1950 lbs in normal category and 1800 in acrobatic.

The AFM and TCDS will list approved and prohibited maneuvers. It's not really feasible to list all possible approved maneuvers, so the important part is the prohibited list.

FAR 21 and 23 address the requirements of the category in various places.

Nobody uses the term "acrobatic" anymore, because it sounds like a circus act, but it's still in the FAR.
 
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Salty said:
What FAR is that?

Remember that an RV is not certified (for the most part)
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Part 91.9(a) is sort of the inverse, saying that you just comply with the operating limitations. So if the limitations prohibit aerobatic maneuvers, you can't do them. But that's not the same as requiring permission.
 
Ed Haywood said:
"Acrobatic" is a category of type certification, like normal or utility. An aircraft will typically be certified in both normal and utility, with different operating limitations in each.
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Most aircraft are Normal only. The typical planes used for training are certified in both. But larger, heavier planes are mostly Normal only
 
StraightnLevel said:
Part 23 2005(d)
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There's a world of aerobatic airplanes not certified under part 23. There's also no predefined set of maneuvers an airplane must be capable of performing to meet the aerobatic category requirements. It's just a different (sub)set of cert standards that must be met.

Nauga,
the spin nurse
 
egothrasher said:
Thank you all for the replies, and its been a pleasure discovering all these models. The turbine legend really caught my eye, as did the RV8. Does anyone by chance know which of the Vans aircraft asisde from the RV8 are aerobatic rated?
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The RV-3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 14 are designed for aerobatics. The 9, 10, and 12 are not.

Lindberg said:
Part 91.9(a) is sort of the inverse, saying that you just comply with the operating limitations. So if the limitations prohibit aerobatic maneuvers, you can't do them. But that's not the same as requiring permission.
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The experimental operating limitation language they use nowadays says only those aerobatic maneuvers performed during phase 1 testing may be done:

"If aerobatic maneuvers are intended to be performed during phase II, those maneuvers must be satisfactorily accomplished and recorded in the maintenance records. Aerobatic flight testing is not complete until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable during the aerobatic maneuver tested. Upon completion of flight testing, the owner/operator must make the following or similar entry in the maintenance records:​
"I certify that the following aerobatic maneuvers have been test flown, and that the aircraft is controllable throughout the maneuvers’ normal range of speeds. The flight-tested aerobatic maneuvers and speeds are _________ at _________, _________ at _________, __________ at _________, and __________ at _________."​
During phase II operations, aerobatic maneuvers that were not documented per this limitation may not be performed. The owner may place the aircraft back into phase I for the sole purpose of adding additional aerobatic maneuvers to the aircraft authorized maneuvers."​
 
Pinecone said:
Most aircraft are Normal only. The typical planes used for training are certified in both. But larger, heavier planes are mostly Normal only
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Mistype. I meant to say most aerobatic aircraft are certified as both normal and aerobatic.
 
This thread is funny. I suggest F-14.
 
Opposite rubber. Guess they couldn’t afford the correction tape.

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I don’t think you can beat an RV-4 or RV-8 for a tandem plane for 90% travel and 10% aerobatics. Or even up to 80% aerobatics. I think you need to be pretty low on the travel side of the mission statement to prefer anything else.

If you are only flying for fun, not long cross countries, then the open cockpit biplanes and Champ family (Citabria, Decathlon) are a great choice.

If you throw out the tandem seating requirement, then there is a Bonanza for that. As well as other RV models (6, 7, 14).
 
egothrasher said:
Looking for suggestions for slightly aerobatic planes, simple maneuvers like loops and rolls, nothing crazy. Two person airplane that I can have some fun in but at the same time able to fly places when not messing around. Some planes I've come across, to give you an idea of what I'm looking at.

Blackshape Gabriel/ Prime
TL Sport Stream and Stream Turbo
Blackwing 635RG (I know its not tandem but still looks like a pretty aircraft)

Thanks!
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Socata TB30 Epsilon. 185 knots, fully aerobatic, warbird category, Lycoming AEIO-540. A blast to fly. Average price $375-395,000
 
TB30s are modern and nice but have a very high wing loading, which shows in the way they fly. More like a lowish powered jet (good and bad) than a typical aerobatic plane. I’ve flown two of them on two flights, once from the back and once in front, straightforward to maneuver and easy to land. Despite being fast they were made for primary training, not traveling, meaning close to zero baggage space if there’s two on board. 85 kts on final seemed to work.
 
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