Pan Pan

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
Let's talk about when to declare an emergency. I think there's value in each pilot contemplating this for themselves.

I started thinking about this after my thread about vfr in the mountains. Several people suggested that I should have declared an emergency. I disagree, however, as I say, it made me think about my criteria for when to declare...

My criteria is to declare at the point that I have a reasonable belief that I will have to perform an emergency / abnormal procedure, violate a regulation, or need special consideration or assistance.

In my mountain VFR scenario, I did not declare (and stand by that decision) because I did not yet believe I would need to do anything abnormal, violate a regulation, or request special consideration. Had I run any lower in fuel, there would have been a good chance I would have had to violate a regulation (cloud separation) or need special consideration or assistance, but I was not yet to that point.

However, is where the problem can happen. It's very easy to fall into the invulnerability hazardous attitude and say "it'll be ok, no need to declare yet".

I'll give two more examples, both clearly on either side of the spectrum. It get's harder the closer the scenario gets to the middle.

1. On takeoff, I brief what I will do if there are engine issues on climb out. I will not declare an emergency just because I've identified a potential issue. It is not reasonable to think it is inevitable.

2. I'm in the pattern and my engine is over-speeding. I will declare an emergency even though I think I can easily make the runway. The odds are good enough in my mind that I might need to do all the things in my above criteria, therefore I will declare immediately. This actually happened to me and I did NOT declare. I did request that the aircraft on the taxiway keep the runway clear (un-towered airport), but I should have declared. Going through this exercise has changed my behavior on this. If it happened again, I would definitely do so.

Hope this helps someone think about emergencies differently.
 
if only there was some guidance on this. waaaait a minute.................



Emergency Condition- Request Assistance Immediately
  1. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire, mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after the situation has developed into a distress condition.
  2. Pilots who become apprehensive for their safety for any reason should request assistance immediately. Ready and willing help is available in the form of radio, radar, direction finding stations and other aircraft. Delay has caused accidents and cost lives. Safety is not a luxury! Take action!
 
You answered your own question. Look at it this way, to WHOM are you declaring?

We all know aviate, navigate, communicate. Sometimes communicate is a matter of urgent safety.

So there I was…. er, not in the mood to type that much. A minor matter came up with a student once. I asked him if he wanted to declare. He declined… I played devils advocate and held him while someone else came in and shut down the airport. His minor matter was now BAD.

We declared the emergency, landed, debriefed. No big deal.

I’ve had MAJOR issues and acted without declaring. My initial actions resolved the matter, now rendering declaring moot.

Declaring isn’t a matter of rule or regulation. It’s a method of expanding your team. Act accordingly.
 
eman1200 said:
if only there was some guidance on this. waaaait a minute.................



Emergency Condition- Request Assistance Immediately
  1. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire, mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after the situation has developed into a distress condition.
  2. Pilots who become apprehensive for their safety for any reason should request assistance immediately. Ready and willing help is available in the form of radio, radar, direction finding stations and other aircraft. Delay has caused accidents and cost lives. Safety is not a luxury! Take action!
Click to expand...
Two key phrases for me… “ask for help” and “request assistance.”

If nobody outside my airplane can provide help or assistance, I don’t really see the need.
 
Salty said:
My criteria is to declare at the point that I have a reasonable belief that I will have to perform an emergency / abnormal procedure, violate a regulation, or need special consideration or assistance.
Click to expand...

This is what I was referring to. This is the primary factor, in my opinion. Great discussion, and you’ve clearly given it good critical thought.

I guess I would add that NO ONE should hesitate for fear of regulation or inconvenience. It’s a tool you should take into consideration with the same weight of pitching to best glide (for example).
 
MauleSkinner said:
Two key phrases for me… “ask for help” and “request assistance.”

If nobody outside my airplane can provide help or assistance, I don’t really see the need.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree, however, in the heat of a crisis, there may be assistance that could help that you didn't think about. Getting a brain working the problem that isn't under your stress might just help. Now, every time I've tried to leverage that it's caused me more grief than help, but that's another problem.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Two key phrases for me… “ask for help” and “request assistance.”

If nobody outside my airplane can provide help or assistance, I don’t really see the need.
Click to expand...

I hear that. to me, "request assistance" could include "clear everyone else out of my way for me while I figure out my problem"
 
Salty said:
I tend to agree, however, in the heat of a crisis, there may be assistance that could help that you didn't think about. Getting a brain working the problem that isn't under your stress might just help. Now, every time I've tried to leverage that it's caused me more grief than help, but that's another problem.
Click to expand...
I’ll present a couple of mine as examples.

Cessna 414, descending through about 15k into an uncontrolled airport on a clear day. Had to shut one down for loss of oil pressure. I just needed clearance for a visual approach.

Contrast with a King Air, shut one down for loss of oil pressure. Still an uncontrolled airport, pretty much identical lack of ground services available at myuncontrolled airport destination, but I was IMC and needed to fly an ILS. I declared an emergency because I didn’t want any deviation from my arrival/approach profile.
 
Declare early and often :)

I declared once as a 90 hour pilot (it was on takeoff, long story about when in flight I declared). Only really cared about my skin, no one else - nothing about repercussions, opinions, etc.

If one thinks about what others might think, they are doing it wrong. It’s all about you (and your passengers). Just do it. Or not! Again, part of selfish-me is that if declaring is going to be more of a distraction or sap some of my ability to handle the emergency, screw declaring.

Does anyone ever think “should I dial 911”? If you think that, then you should/should have. Same thing here. Just one man’s opinion.

Good topic @Salty
 
I think it is very situational, and every situation is different.

You have a finite period of time to deal with a potential emergency, and a list of tasks. You have to make a quick evaluation and prioritize the tasks most critical to a safe outcome, then execute in that order. Aviate - Navigate - Communicate. Communicating your intentions may or may not make the cut list.

As a general rule, where the actions of other aircraft are potentially a factor to a positive outcome, declaring has obvious benefits and should be high on the priority list. Likewise for any situation involving ATC. Calling for help may reduce your navigation workload, allowing you to focus on aviating, such as during inadvertent IMC.

I did not declare when I lost power. I considered it for 2 seconds and decided things were happening too fast and I needed to focus on putting the aircraft on the ground. My main limitation was mental bandwidth. I needed every brain cell to compute my flight path.

You could make a good case that I should have made a quick call to mobilize emergency services and SAR. But you could make an equally good case that distracting myself from aviating might have worsened my outcome.
 
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Salty said:
In my mountain VFR scenario, I did not declare (and stand by that decision) because I did not yet believe I would need to do anything abnormal, violate a regulation, or request special consideration. Had I run any lower in fuel, there would have been a good chance I would have had to violate a regulation (cloud separation) or need special consideration or assistance, but I was not yet to that point.
Click to expand...

I think you have self-assessed accurately. You were not in an emergency. You were in a challenging situation. At the point where you needed additional resources to help resolve your situation, a call would have obtained them. You exercised your best judgment given your skills and experience, and resulted in a safe outcome.
 
I just thought of something else that came up in my previous thread, and I think it's what a few of you here are hinting at. A few people on the previous thread came across (I may have misinterpreted) as if declaring an emergency was somehow going to fix the problem. It sounded like they thought that all I had to do is declare and suddenly my problem would go away. I think that's a really bad attitude.

YOU still have to get on the ground safely. Nobody else can do it. Telling others about your problem isn't magically going to fix anything. They might be able to help, but it's still 100% on you to execute.
 
My philosophy is that there's no prize or bragging rights for not declaring an emergency if you need (or think you will likely need) assistance. I didn't hesitate to declare when I had a partial engine failure with abnormal engine indications. Probably could have handled it myself, but ATC was awesome with some point-outs to me and I knew that if something went sideways quickly enough that I couldn't make a radio call, there was already at least one set of eyes watching me carefully. There's not really a virtue judgement in either direction for declaring, but rather an assessment of whether the flight can be continued normally or if the risk of safety of flight has become elevated. If it's a VFR clear-blue day and I lose my primary attitude indicator, I'm not going to declare. If I'm in IMC (or on a dark night), I'll likely declare immediately. Not that I think I would crash the plane immediately, but instead because the situation has increased flight risk and my scan has to change, so I want ATC to know that I may need some additional services or extra time. 100% agree that declaring an emergency brings additional resources to the fight, but doesn't in any way remove PIC responsibility to aviate, navigate, and communicate.
 
eman1200 said:
if only there was some guidance on this. waaaait a minute.................



Emergency Condition- Request Assistance Immediately
  1. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire, mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after the situation has developed into a distress condition.
  2. Pilots who become apprehensive for their safety for any reason should request assistance immediately. Ready and willing help is available in the form of radio, radar, direction finding stations and other aircraft. Delay has caused accidents and cost lives. Safety is not a luxury! Take action!
Click to expand...
I think the most important point is that an emergency condition exists whether you declare it or not. If you don't need any external help and you're not already in communication with anyone, then maybe you don't seek them out to tell them. But IMO, if you're in communication with ATC and an emergency condition exists and you don't tell them about it, that's just stupid.
 
Lindberg said:
I think the most important point is that an emergency condition exists whether you declare it or not. If you don't need any external help and you're not already in communication with anyone, then maybe you don't seek them out to tell them. But IMO, if you're in communication with ATC and an emergency condition exists and you don't tell them about it, that's just stupid.
Click to expand...
But what, exactly, constitutes an emergency?
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm confused by the thread title. You thread is titled Pan Pan, but your post talks about whether or not to declare an Emergency. They are not the same.

??
Click to expand...
I don't agree. In my view Pan-pan is just the first level of an emergency, which could be immediately bypassed in some scenarios or upgraded to full mayday eventually in other scenarios. Pan-pan and mayday are both emergency declarations in my view, but not all emergencies are mayday's.
 
Salty said:
I don't agree. In my view Pan-pan is just the first level of an emergency, which could be immediately bypassed in some scenarios or upgraded to full mayday eventually in other scenarios. Pan-pan and mayday are both emergency declarations in my view, but not all emergencies are mayday's.
Click to expand...
Do you actually know what a Pan Pan call is? The post I quoted appears that you do not.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Do you actually know what a Pan Pan call is? The post I quoted appears that you do not.
Click to expand...
What is the point of this question? Obviously I think I do and you think I don’t. I see no point in you asking the question without actually explaining your thoughts.
 
eman1200 said:
It doesn’t matter, our answers will be wrong anyway
Click to expand...
Gotta love the passive aggressive crap. If you don’t agree be a man and say what your opinion is.
 
You’re wrong but I won’t say why. Very helpful guys.
 
Members were commenting about you declaring an emergency based on your plan you brought up, not your actual situation. The first thread only covered how you got in and maintained VMC. The second thread you brought up a hypothetical plan of shooting a quasi RNAV with a VFR GPS in a non IFR equipped aircraft. Can’t recall if you said you were rated or not. Anyway, based on that scenario, yeah it’s a no brainer, you need to declare. In the first thread, no point in declaring. Maybe use ATC service for PIREPs or current weather but that’s about it.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I did not declare when I lost power. I considered it for 2 seconds and decided things were happening too fast and I needed to focus on putting the aircraft on the ground. My main limitation was mental bandwidth. I needed every brain cell to compute my flight path.
Click to expand...
For me, declaring frees up mental bandwidth.
 
eman1200 said:
I did, three times. post #2, 8, and 21.
Click to expand...
So what’s your problem? Who said you were wrong? I don’t see anyone saying you were wrong.
 
Salty said:
So what’s your problem?
Click to expand...


well, I'm almost out of toothpaste. now I have to get in the car, burn gas, wreck the entire planet in doing so, deal with "people" (ugh), and go to a grocery store just to buy toothpaste. that's about the only problem I have right now, which I can't complain too much about. other than that, I got no problem. you?
 
I see pan-pan as “heads up, guys, I’m working an issue that could get worse”. Emergency is “I need your help right now - let’s get the other stuff on the back burner because the Creek just rose.” Declaring can get direct routing, help with vectors to the nearest field, get emergency services rolling, possibly useful guidance in working the problem. It’s easier and better to cancel fire and EMS and clear the holding traffic back to what they were doing, than to wish they’d hurry up and get those planes moved and wonder what’s taking the ambulance so long.

As a former first responder (law enforcement), I always told folks that if they’re not sure, call 911, ask for help and get us going that way. We’re on the clock, responding costs zero extra, and we’d rather get stood down than have someone hurt because they didn’t think it was worth calling.

One item on my emergency landing checklist is to activate the ELT and PLB. I keep the PLB in a side pocket and plan to clip it to my shirt before landing. Recognizing that it can come loose, I’m probably going to assemble a very basic survival kit in a cross-chest sling pack that can be thrown on in two seconds. Contents will be the PLB, orange signal cloth, mirror, tourniquet and a couple compression dressings (Israeli bandages) - signal for help, stop bleeding.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm confused by the thread title. You thread is titled Pan Pan, but your post talks about whether or not to declare an Emergency. They are not the same.

??
Click to expand...
The Pilot/Controller Glossary disagrees with you.

"EMERGENCY− A distress or an urgency condition."​
​
"PAN-PAN− The international radio-telephony urgency signal. When repeated three times, indicates uncertainty​
or alert followed by the nature of the urgency."​
 
Palmpilot said:
The Pilot/Controller Glossary disagrees with you.

"EMERGENCY− A distress or an urgency condition."​
​
"PAN-PAN− The international radio-telephony urgency signal. When repeated three times, indicates uncertainty​
or alert followed by the nature of the urgency."​
Click to expand...

I'm confused. How does that disagree with what he said?
 
kayoh190 said:
I'm confused. How does that disagree with what he said?
Click to expand...
Because Distress (Mayday) conditions and Urgency (Pan Pan) conditions are both Emergency conditions. FT's and subsequent posts seem to be operating on the incorrect assumption that Distress conditions are the only kind of Emergency condition.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
But what, exactly, constitutes an emergency?
Click to expand...
From the P/C Glossary:

DISTRESS− A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance

URGENCY− A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition. (See ICAO term URGENCY.) URGENCY [ICAO]− A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of person on board or in sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.

An Urgency condition ("Pan Pan") covers quite a lot. Especially the ICAO definition.
 
Lindberg said:
From the P/C Glossary:

DISTRESS− A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance

URGENCY− A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition. (See ICAO term URGENCY.) URGENCY [ICAO]− A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of person on board or in sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.

An Urgency condition ("Pan Pan") covers quite a lot. Especially the ICAO definition.
Click to expand...
So of my seven engine failures/shutdowns, maybe one met those definitions, because for the others to degrade to a distress condition, I’d have to screw up.
 
Lindberg said:
Because Distress (Mayday) conditions and Urgency (Pan Pan) conditions are both Emergency conditions. FT's and subsequent posts seem to be operating on the incorrect assumption that Distress condition and Emergency condition are synonymous.
Click to expand...

I understand that, but I do think it's an unusual thread title given that pilots in the States tend to talk about 'declaring an emergency' without any consideration to actually saying "Mayday" or "Pan Pan" to make the distinction to ATC. I opened the thread thinking we'd be discussing Pan Pan specifically, but it seems we're back to just talking about when to "declare". That's where I figured FT was coming from.
 
So much for trying to be creative with the thread title.
 
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