NA - Hey Aviation Forum, How do I find a leak in a pool pipe?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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First: [Rant] As God is my witness, I will never have a pool again in my life. Sure when the kids are little, its fun but when they grow up, it is just this thing I have to maintain that never gets used. [Rant Over]

I have an in ground, saltwater pool with connections at the filter, pump, cleaner, heater, and chlorine generator.
I noticed that there are some air bubbles coming from the returns and I am aware of 1 water leak at the heater and 1 at the filter.
Visible crack in the nut at the filter.
I can't get the right nut for a couple weeks so I got the fiber glass, resin, and some flex tape and over fixed it. So no visible leaks. the system is air tight at the equipment area.

Still seeing significant amount of air in the pool returns and the "pump Bowl" is only able to fill about half way with water. It surges a bit as well so I think the system is sucking air somewhere.

There are 3 suction points. 1 for the hot tub and 2 for the pool both have the same issue with the "pump Bowl" not being to fully fill with water.

In the image below, lets just call the thing circled in red the "pump Bowl" I don't know what it is called but that is the thing that should be full when the pump is on but is only filling half way.

couple thoughts:
1. Maybe the pump motor is compromised and weak - Doesn't make sense that I would be getting air in the system when changing from one suction source to another. The motor is only about a year old.
2. If I did have a crack in an underground pipe, could it draw in air and cause this issue and if so, how would one go about locating a leak in an underground PVC pipe?

Thank you aviation forum for having the answers to all of life's problems and not just airplane stuff.


Disregard the clutter and dismembered control panel, when I took the photo, I was replacing the control board to solve a different problem (Pools are like planes. Expensive, mostly broken, but not nearly as fun)

20240826_171113.jpg
 
Good luck! I’m having the same problem. I think that bowl with the clear cover on the pump is called a skimmer pot. Ours only fills 2/3 at best. We had a leak - 1/4 to 1/2” a day in the pool that turned out to be under the main drain. The pool repair guy fixed it, and also replaced the seal on valve and the pot lid. It’s still not filling, but no air bubbles blowing into the pool. It’s a pain.

If it wasn’t for my wife using the pool for exercise and physical therapy, I’d probably fill the thing in with dirt, put concrete over it, and enjoy the bigger patio that doesn’t use electricity and chemicals.
 
And now you know why pools decrease your property value.

Dad had a similar problem. In ground pool with hot tub water falling into pool. Noticed the hot tub water level dropping. Then saw water in between the retaining wall and concrete patio. We guessed a tub feed line didn't get winterized well enough and I ended up saw cutting a section of patio out where we thought the lowest point was. We guessed right.

Last year his filter sprung a leak. Year before that it was the heater. Neither had what you're describing...and that's air bubbles in the pool/tub jets?

Is the new pump variable speed? Dads is and when it's on its 2 lowest speeds the pump bowl won't be all the way full.

If you truly have a suction leak first thing would be to isolate it. Looks like you've already shut the spa and skimmers off. I'm assuming you've already tried isolating and getting air on all 3 suction lines independently. Then you probably don't have a broken pipe.

Next step would be have someone shut the pump off and search for a leak in a valve, fitting, pump bowl, or pump drain plug. You'll see water. It will take multiple attempts of on/off.

Make sure the gasket on the pump bowl is lubricated with silicone grease. That'd be the easiest thing to try right away.
 
It could also be leaking in your pump housing, between impellor housing and motor.
 
When I had this issue, it was the o ring on that housing. New one from Amazon for a few bucks solved the problem. Brand and model of pump should be stamped on the side.
 
My backyard neighbor finally got a leaky pipe fixed. Turned out to be a pipe that wasn’t glued when the pool went in many years ago and was constantly seeping. It took a few different pool companies to find it.

Good luck!
 
On the farm, I have like a 1/2 mile of buried poly pipe spread around the placebetween hydrants, buried 3'. Leaks are a fact of life. I've found the best way to find leaks is to close valves to isolate sections and rig up a way to connect an air compressor to pump 30 lbs of air into the pipe. The air pushing the water out of the crack is loud enough to be heard above ground. Isolate the sound, start digging.
 
I grew up with a in ground pool. It was my job to vacuum, scrub the tile and add chlorine every night.

Luckily we don't have a pool at home now. We have had a spa/hot tube for 18 years now, still running all these years later. It never gets turned off. Close the lid and forget about it for a couple weeks at a time. I use it as a pool during the hot weather, works for me. Not so much for my wife though.
 
ugh something is actively happening. This morning I go out and the pump is on as it kicks on about 4 AM. No water in the skimmer pot at all so it is just pulling air I guess.
I am thinking I will check the impeller. If the suction from the hot tub and the suction from the pool produce the same result, it is unlikely that all 3 pipes have suddenly been breached so maybe athe impeller is full of debris or perhaps the motor is weak. It is only 2 years old and a fairly nice one.

I did re-lube all of the o rings in the system and clean the filter cartridges. The rings are all in really good shape.

I am thinking impeller or perhaps the junction just on the front of the skimmer pot.

Yesterday I poured food coloring into both skimmers and within about 30 seconds, I could see the color in the skimmer pot so I know they aren't blocked (At least not fully)

Going to disassemble the pump now. I need to get this thing back to fully functional so nobody can keep using it.
 
When do you close the pool for the year? Maybe it's time? Worry it about next year? You know kick the can down the road.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
ugh something is actively happening. This morning I go out and the pump is on as it kicks on about 4 AM. No water in the skimmer pot at all so it is just pulling air I guess.
I am thinking I will check the impeller. If the suction from the hot tub and the suction from the pool produce the same result, it is unlikely that all 3 pipes have suddenly been breached so maybe athe impeller is full of debris or perhaps the motor is weak. It is only 2 years old and a fairly nice one.

I did re-lube all of the o rings in the system and clean the filter cartridges. The rings are all in really good shape.

I am thinking impeller or perhaps the junction just on the front of the skimmer pot.

Yesterday I poured food coloring into both skimmers and within about 30 seconds, I could see the color in the skimmer pot so I know they aren't blocked (At least not fully)

Going to disassemble the pump now. I need to get this thing back to fully functional so nobody can keep using it.
Click to expand...
The lines all fill with water up to the level of water in the pool. Just by gravity. So if the lines aren't clogged, and you're sucking in air, as opposed to losing water, the leak is most likely above ground. And the most likely area for that is at the equipment.
 
Only way to be sure of not needing more repairs is nuke it from orbit. (apologies to Aliens)
 
Gary Ward said:
When do you close the pool for the year? Maybe it's time? Worry it about next year? You know kick the can down the road.
Click to expand...
Here comes my ignorance. I hear people talk about closing the pool but I have never done whatever that is.
What is closing a pool? I have just kept everything on the same timers all year round for the last 15 years. Toss in some salt when it asks and toss in some acid when it asks.
Is there an option to turn it off? I think if I were to shut it down, it would be green in a couple weeks.
 
Lindberg said:
The lines all fill with water up to the level of water in the pool. Just by gravity. So if the lines aren't clogged, and you're sucking in air, as opposed to losing water, the leak is most likely above ground. And the most likely area for that is at the equipment.
Click to expand...
Ok, I am thinking through this.
all the lines underground would have water in them due to gravity.
The water level is actually quite high at the moment so no air coming from the skimmer which means from the skimmer to the equipment area everything should be full of water.

I think I just figured something out. I may be really dumb. brb.


Edit: NM. I was thinking it might be a priming issue. I have been told to remove the skimmer pot lid, fill it with water to prime the system before turning the pot on but it is an impossible task because it drains as fast as I can fill it. I started thinking maybe I am not filling it long enough and it should eventually fill up but I assume that water that is draining is just going back to the pool because I am making the water level higher than the pool.

I am now thinking about securing a plastic grocery bag around each junction and taping it on both sides of the pipes and running the system to see if one of the bags collapse which would indicate suction.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Here comes my ignorance. I hear people talk about closing the pool but I have never done whatever that is.
What is closing a pool? I have just kept everything on the same timers all year round for the last 15 years. Toss in some salt when it asks and toss in some acid when it asks.
Is there an option to turn it off? I think if I were to shut it down, it would be green in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...
You're too far south to worry about closing the pool for the winter.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Here comes my ignorance. I hear people talk about closing the pool but I have never done whatever that is.
What is closing a pool? I have just kept everything on the same timers all year round for the last 15 years. Toss in some salt when it asks and toss in some acid when it asks.
Is there an option to turn it off? I think if I were to shut it down, it would be green in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...
You must live in a warm climate?
I am in the pool care business and fuel business. I concentrate on the fuel side of our business.
We open pools for customers and close/cover winterize pools every year for a few hundred customers.

As a kid it was a routine, take the cover off, scrub, coat it in corn starch so it wouldn't mold and put it away until fall. Lower the water below the plumbing and blow out all lines so they don't freeze when it got winterized.
Sorry I am no help with your problem.
You could still "close" it to save on chemical costs during the slow season. Just need to cover it.
 
Gary Ward said:
You must live in a warm climate?
I am in the pool care business and fuel business. I concentrate on the fuel side of our business.
We open pools for customers and close/cover winterize pools every year for a few hundred customers.

As a kid it was a routine, take the cover off, scrub, coat it in corn starch so it wouldn't mold and put it away until fall. Lower the water below the plumbing and blow out all lines so they don't freeze when it got winterized.
Sorry I am no help with your problem.
You could still "close" it to save on chemical costs during the slow season. Just need to cover it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am in Texas. Its very rare for it to get that cold here. When it gets cold here, it makes the news.
fortworthreport.org

Texas puts final estimate of winter storm death toll at 246 | Fort Worth Report

An ice and snow covered alley in South Austin after a freezing rain storm rolled through the area on Feb. 17, 2021. Credit: Miguel Gutierrez Jr./The Texas
fortworthreport.org fortworthreport.org
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Here comes my ignorance. I hear people talk about closing the pool but I have never done whatever that is.
What is closing a pool? I have just kept everything on the same timers all year round for the last 15 years. Toss in some salt when it asks and toss in some acid when it asks.
Is there an option to turn it off? I think if I were to shut it down, it would be green in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...
We don't "close" pools here. You can put a cover on it for the months it's not in use, to keep it leaves and kids and such, but you'll still need to keep the pump and chemicals going. Although demand will be less.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Ok, I am thinking through this.
all the lines underground would have water in them due to gravity.
The water level is actually quite high at the moment so no air coming from the skimmer which means from the skimmer to the equipment area everything should be full of water.

I think I just figured something out. I may be really dumb. brb.


Edit: NM. I was thinking it might be a priming issue. I have been told to remove the skimmer pot lid, fill it with water to prime the system before turning the pot on but it is an impossible task because it drains as fast as I can fill it. I started thinking maybe I am not filling it long enough and it should eventually fill up but I assume that water that is draining is just going back to the pool because I am making the water level higher than the pool.

I am now thinking about securing a plastic grocery bag around each junction and taping it on both sides of the pipes and running the system to see if one of the bags collapse which would indicate suction.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you can't fill or prime anything with the system open.

See if this helps:

How To Determine Why a Pool Pump Won't Prime - INYOPools.com

This guide discusses the common problems involved with a motor that won't prime
www.inyopools.com www.inyopools.com
 
Our pool season is only 3-5 months around here.
We lower the water below the plumbing and turn them off during the winter. Treat the water before putting the cover on and don't do anything until next late spring.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Here comes my ignorance. I hear people talk about closing the pool but I have never done whatever that is.
What is closing a pool? I have just kept everything on the same timers all year round for the last 15 years. Toss in some salt when it asks and toss in some acid when it asks.
Is there an option to turn it off? I think if I were to shut it down, it would be green in a couple weeks.
Click to expand...
Well being in Texas you only know of ice in your drinks. Up here we've got to make sure there's no water in the pipes, lower water level a few feet below the jets and then dump antifreeze down the lines just to make sure.
 
Gary Ward said:
Our pool season is only 3-5 months around here.
We lower the water below the plumbing and turn them off during the winter. Treat the water before putting the cover on and don't do anything until next late spring.
Click to expand...

We do actually use the hot tub during the winter which is on the same system so it would remain open for that reason anyway. And also my shining moments where I forget to turn the heater off and I wake up to a 20,000 gallon hot tub the following morning. The first time I made that brilliant mistake I demanded the family get in and swim in February. "I paid for all of this hot water and by God we're going to enjoy it!"
 
Zeldman said:
Airplane owner, pool owner...heck, you are rich.

I have a water well and a septic tank and 1.76 acres of 3 foot tall weeds...

Just call a guy... :yesnod:
Click to expand...

HA! If I was rich I would just call a guy. The last guy that came out wanted to charge me $480 for a $25 flow sensor.
My hot tub light is out and he said he would cut me a deal and get me one for $1,600. I guess pool owners are rich.
I am not. My "Guy" is Amazon and aviation forums.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
HA! If I was rich I would just call a guy. The last guy that came out wanted to charge me $480 for a $25 flow sensor.
My hot tub light is out and he said he would cut me a deal and get me one for $1,600. I guess pool owners are rich.
I am not. My "Guy" is Amazon and aviation forums.
Click to expand...
Most of the "pool guys" I've spoken to don't have any idea about pool chemistry or anything else. A strong tell is that most will tell you that their preferred version of "chlorine" is "much more powerful" than other types (they all work the same way).
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We do actually use the hot tub during the winter which is on the same system so it would remain open for that reason anyway. And also my shining moments where I forget to turn the heater off and I wake up to a 20,000 gallon hot tub the following morning. The first time I made that brilliant mistake I demanded the family get in and swim in February. "I paid for all of this hot water and by God we're going to enjoy it!"
Click to expand...
Oh yea, the hot tube. Too bad they are integral otherwise you could shut the pool down during the winter and save some cash.
We are not rich and only have a small home and a stand alone spa. We use ours year round also and has not been tuned off for 18 years and running. Ours is under a awning which helps it last longer. Sometimes I use the back porch as dumping ground from the garage. My wife put's up with a lot from me.
SDC10006.jpg
 
When I've had such problems, It usually traced to a check-valve in the plumbing that allowed water/air to suck from a pipe that's shut off. In our case, usually when in "Pool mode" the spa would "Leak down". It was actually just sucking air/water from the closed plumbing.

Either not fully closing or a bad o-ring.
 
You can eliminate the pump as the issue by pulling water through with a shop vac. If it pulls water just fine, then it’s the pump. If you get just air, you have a leak. If you get air and dirt it’s a big leak. I had a similar issue on my pool a couple years ago and guess what I found!

Our next step was to get a guy with a long scope that had a remote locator on it. He fed it through the piping until he found the gaping hole, the used the locator to pinpoint it so we knew where to dig up the concrete.
 
EdFred said:
You're too far south to worry about closing the pool for the winter.
Click to expand...
He's in Dallas. It can get cold there. And when it does, the chances of something like an ice or snowstorm that kills power for a while are higher. Lose power for a day in sub 30 temps and any exposed pool plumbing is gonna freeze. Which is why I blow out the lines and close our pool here in the Atlanta area - which has a similar climate to Dallas. Not a high probability, but an expensive and problematic failure when it happens and one that you can avoid by spending 30 minutes to close the pool...

But if I was Brian, I'd use air to pressurize the system through the skimmers (that's how I blow out the lines when I close our pool). A couple of PSI will show up any leaks in the valves and stuff near the pump - just spray every joint with soapy water and if you see bubbles, now you know where the air leak is. Underground stuff? Yikes. I always worry about our troublesome local chipmunks acquiring a taste for underground PVC.
 
kyleb said:
He's in Dallas. It can get cold there. And when it does, the chances of something like an ice or snowstorm that kills power for a while are higher. Lose power for a day in sub 30 temps and any exposed pool plumbing is gonna freeze. Which is why I blow out the lines and close our pool here in the Atlanta area - which has a similar climate to Dallas. Not a high probability, but an expensive and problematic failure when it happens and one that you can avoid by spending 30 minutes to close the pool...

But if I was Brian, I'd use air to pressurize the system through the skimmers (that's how I blow out the lines when I close our pool). A couple of PSI will show up any leaks in the valves and stuff near the pump - just spray every joint with soapy water and if you see bubbles, now you know where the air leak is. Underground stuff? Yikes. I always worry about our troublesome local chipmunks acquiring a taste for underground PVC.
Click to expand...
That would be my suggestion. Plug off the skimmers and pressurize the piping to listen for leaks (pump off). Should be able to hear leaks with 15-20psi.

Regarding freezing in DFW, it's generally easy enough to drain plumbing lines if needed in an emergency. Most of the freeze points in a temporary sub-zero event are going to be in stuff not in the pool, so draining filters/skimmer pot, and feed lines is usually sufficient.
 
Weird. It is definitely sucking.
I turned it on for a couple minutes. The pot never filled with water but then I shot it off and you could hear the vacuum depressurizing for a few seconds when I opened the valve on the top of the filter.
 
SoonerAviator said:
That would be my suggestion. Plug off the skimmers and pressurize the piping to listen for leaks (pump off). Should be able to hear leaks with 15-20psi.

Regarding freezing in DFW, it's generally easy enough to drain plumbing lines if needed in an emergency. Most of the freeze points in a temporary sub-zero event are going to be in stuff not in the pool, so draining filters/skimmer pot, and feed lines is usually sufficient.
Click to expand...
I use < 10 psi to blow the pool lines. Dunno what the burst pressure of old pvc is, but don’t wanna find out either.
 
kyleb said:
I use < 10 psi to blow the pool lines. Dunno what the burst pressure of old pvc is, but don’t wanna find out either.
Click to expand...
If your pvc piping blows with 15 psi, you were on borrowed time anyway. The normal pump system runs at more water psi than that as it is. The expandable rubber stoppers you use for plugging off the outlets won't usually hold a ton more pressure anyway unless you're really cranking them down.
 
Ruled out blockages. Poured green food color in the pot and opened the filter valve and quickly the mains in the pool dispersed green water.
Pulled the pump apart and the impeller is intact, clean, and spinning freely. Powered it on to confirm the motor is inface engaging the impeller.

Next step is to wrap all junctions in plastic and turn it on and see if it is drawing in air at one of the connections.
 
kyleb said:
I use < 10 psi to blow the pool lines. Dunno what the burst pressure of old pvc is, but don’t wanna find out either.
Click to expand...
I am assuming there is an attachment on the pump somewhere that I can connect my air compressor?
I had a guy blow out a pipe once because a toy got lodged and he brought what looked like a scuba tank to blast it out.
 
Similar problem, but it’s my irrigation system that is leaking about a 1/3 gallon per minute, and it leaks with the sprinkler system off. So I figure it has to be between meter and the valves (which I can’t find).
Some web searches came up with guys who use sensitive microphones to track the pipes and leaks, definitely an art form.
Looks like digging and following the pipes is going to be the only way.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Weird. It is definitely sucking.
I turned it on for a couple minutes. The pot never filled with water but then I shot it off and you could hear the vacuum depressurizing for a few seconds when I opened the valve on the top of the filter.
Click to expand...
Are you releasing the pressure in your filter to let the air out when you're trying to prime the pump?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am assuming there is an attachment on the pump somewhere that I can connect my air compressor?
I had a guy blow out a pipe once because a toy got lodged and he brought what looked like a scuba tank to blast it out.
Click to expand...

Doubt it.
Maybe drill a hole in the top of that pot thing and install a Shrader valve? PVC pipe does degrade with UV exposure. Might think about throwing a coat of paint on the above ground stuff. Will last a lot longer.
 
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