California is a governor's signature away from banning 100LL in 2031

It’s a problem if unleaded avgas is not as available as 100LL.
There was once a time where cars in CA had to pass "special" emissions standards. So much so that older and out of state cars struggled. Car makers advertised "CA emissions" or similar. But the demand and desire to simply supply chains brought us to "50 State emissions."
 
Edit: in reference to post #78

And what is the distance of their daily commute, availability/usage of public transportation? If I want to go to a Walmart (which I never want to, but being married and all) it’s 45 miles of desolate rural iowa roads, in the winter time it yearly hits -20F, with dawn coming late and sunset coming early, and snow.. so if I’m trying to keep the windows defrosted, the headlights on, the car warm, and pushing through 4” deep snow in -20 degree ambient temperature conditions what’s my range? Then when the snow really starts coming down and I either get stuck or have to pull over until it passes so I can see past the hood what is my “idle time” of keeping it none death conditions inside without extreme measures? How does the electric car compare to a gasoline powered one with a big tank and two full 5 gallon jerri cans..
 
As far as how Chinese people are able to drive all electric cars without being able to charge at home? You tell me since you seem to be the expert on China.
I'm only an "expert" relative to most people here. There's many people who know more than I. But to answer your question, They actually built the infrastructure to charge these vehicles. Both power and also at the consumer end.
There were also many concerns over the electric grid. We are constantly being told to turn AC's off or down during hot summer days or face rolling blackouts because the power grid in the Northeast can't handle it. If the grid can't support the current populations use today how is it supposed to support every house installing and using car chargers? Finally, there is the cost.
Those are choices made by the USA. It's not a technical issue.
You can buy a cheap electric car in china as long as you are good with giving up all the safety and creature comforts that the US market demands.
They make good cars. The ones my dealer drives have heat, air conditioning, GPS, and seem to be crashworthy enough. Tesla exports cars from China because they are cheaper to make there
The cars are good enough to sell in the USA and Canada. Both the USa and Canada put 100% tariff on them.
The cheapest Tesla you can buy right now is $38,990
Tesla isn't the only option. Just like ICE cars, there's a range of options and prices.
 
Could it possibly be that when the CCP says buy electric, the people are not going to make a fuss like they do here?
Gaining public compliance is a lot easier in a dictatorship than it is here.
Ok, what about Norway, where EVs have 80% market share? They also need to build all the infrastructure. Norway isn't a dictatorship.
 
And what is the distance of their daily commute, availability/usage of public transportation? If I want to go to a Walmart (which I never want to, but being married and all) it’s 45 miles of desolate rural iowa roads, in the winter time it yearly hits -20F, with dawn coming late and sunset coming early, and snow.. so if I’m trying to keep the windows defrosted, the headlights on, the car warm, and pushing through 4” deep snow in -20 degree ambient temperature conditions what’s my range? Then when the snow really starts coming down and I either get stuck or have to pull over until it passes so I can see past the hood what is my “idle time” of keeping it none death conditions inside without extreme measures? How does the electric car compare to a gasoline powered one with a big tank and two full 5 gallon jerri cans..
People love to cherry pick situations where EV would not work and then use that as a jumping point to complain about them. EV are not for everyone just like that ford f250 lariat which incidentally costs more than most cars isn't for everyone. From what I see, most people driving trucks could get by with a small pickup but Americans love their trucks. Another constant complaint I hear from people..well you can't drive your car on long trips. Well you(I) can but why would I want to. I drive a Polestar and my wife drives an Etron and we have a 22kw solar array on our house. I don't drive a lot but she does and we end up saving about $500/mo in gas. I'd gladly rent a car and easily come out ahead to drive any long distance.
The beauty of America is that we have choices, sometimes too many choices but a lot non the less. I would never force someone to drive an electric, that's their choice but there are a lot of advantages to driving them.
 
Don’t get me wrong, I would very much like a small CHEAP electric commuting car to use when conditions are good, but I NEED a fuel powered vehicle for when conditions are not nice, regulatory elimination of something I need is something I’m against.
 
Ok, what about Norway, where EVs have 80% market share? They also need to build all the infrastructure. Norway isn't a dictatorship.
First let me say (remind people) that I am and have been very pro-EV.

But people keep pointing out how much better Norway is than us. In some ways, that is true. I love Norway and it's people. But it's not a fair comparison.
Although they are not a dictatorship, they are a blend of Democratic Socialism (think Bernie Sanders). They can do this because of their relatively small population and their huge oil revenues, and a much much much smaller defense budget than us. Thus, they can afford many of the "feel-good" programs that we can't. Therefore, many of their people are very happy liberals.

That said, even Norway is currently rethinking their EV status and they are realizing that EVs are not the answer to all the climate problems.


Why Norway — the poster child for electric cars — is having second thoughts​

Electric cars are crucial, but not enough to solve climate change. We can’t let them crowd out car-free transit options.
 
People love to cherry pick situations where EV would not work and then use that as a jumping point to complain about them. EV are not for everyone just like that ford f250 lariat which incidentally costs more than most cars isn't for everyone. From what I see, most people driving trucks could get by with a small pickup but Americans love their trucks. Another constant complaint I hear from people..well you can't drive your car on long trips. Well you(I) can but why would I want to. I drive a Polestar and my wife drives an Etron and we have a 22kw solar array on our house. I don't drive a lot but she does and we end up saving about $500/mo in gas. I'd gladly rent a car and easily come out ahead to drive any long distance.
The beauty of America is that we have choices, sometimes too many choices but a lot non the less. I would never force someone to drive an electric, that's their choice but there are a lot of advantages to driving them.
The situations are cherry picked specifically to show that EVs don’t work for everyone. I personally am not against EVs or have any bad will towards those who drive them but when my states governor is actively trying to pass laws that mandate cars sold after 2035 can only be electric that’s where I draw the line. Electric cars aren’t for everyone and the government should have no place in forcing them on people. That’s about all I can say about the topic without it turning very political.
 
First let me say (remind people) that I am and have been very pro-EV.

But people keep pointing out how much better Norway is than us. In some ways, that is true. I love Norway and it's people. But it's not a fair comparison.
Although they are not a dictatorship, they are a blend of Democratic Socialism (think Bernie Sanders). They can do this because of their relatively small population and their huge oil revenues, and a much much much smaller defense budget than us. Thus, they can afford many of the "feel-good" programs that we can't. Therefore, many of their people are very happy liberals.

That said, even Norway is currently rethinking their EV status and they are realizing that EVs are not the answer to all the climate problems.

I wasn't trying to say one country is better than another. The same reference I cited also showed Iceland (around 40%) and Sweden (around 30%) EV market share of new vehicles.

Could it possibly be that when the CCP says buy electric, the people are not going to make a fuss like they do here?
Gaining public compliance is a lot easier in a dictatorship than it is here.
I haven't heard any of my friends or colleagues being coerced into buying a particular car. That's also not something they would tell me over electronic communication (nor would I ask). To the the best of my knowledge, they got tax incentives to buy an EV if they chose to do so.
 
. To the the best of my knowledge, they got tax incentives to buy an EV if they chose to do so.
Another point to back up what I said. As much as I am pro-EV, I am equally anti-mandate and anti-subsidizing with taxpayer money. I and many others have complained about the mandates and subsides many times.

Do you think Chinese citizens ever outspokenly complain about government mandates (without invoking memories of Tiananmen Square?
 
Edit: in reference to post #78

And what is the distance of their daily commute, availability/usage of public transportation? If I want to go to a Walmart (which I never want to, but being married and all) it’s 45 miles of desolate rural iowa roads, in the winter time it yearly hits -20F, with dawn coming late and sunset coming early, and snow.. so if I’m trying to keep the windows defrosted, the headlights on, the car warm, and pushing through 4” deep snow in -20 degree ambient temperature conditions what’s my range? Then when the snow really starts coming down and I either get stuck or have to pull over until it passes so I can see past the hood what is my “idle time” of keeping it none death conditions inside without extreme measures? How does the electric car compare to a gasoline powered one with a big tank and two full 5 gallon jerri cans..
Norway, Sweden, and Iceland seem to manage. I understand it is cold and dark in those countries in winter. Northern China also gets cold, away from the coast. People got a "wake-up call" last winter when a cold snap kept cars from charging properly.
Apparently, they use about a third of their charge when it gets that cold. There is also a procedure to warm the battery so that it runs and charges properly.
 
Another point to back up what I said. As much as I am pro-EV, I am equally anti-mandate and anti-subsidizing with taxpayer money. I and many others have complained about the mandates and subsides many times.

Do you think Chinese citizens ever outspokenly complain about government mandates (without invoking memories of Tiananmen Square?
Coal subsidies, subsidies to oil companies (https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-proposals-to-reduce-fossil-fuel-subsidies-january-2024). Many EVs companies in the USA are past the time their cars can be subsidized.

Actually, you'd be surprised about how vocal the Chinese can be. They use dog-whistles to communicate to one another until the government figures them out. One example is "winnie the pooh" (and other examples https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34137519 ). The MD who figured out that COVID was more than just the common cold got "rehabilitated" thanks to public pressure. He got to "drink tea with the police" but was released when they realized he was right. Look up the "white paper protests". I see only the very edge of some of this.
 
There are climate scientists who have been supporting nuclear power for over a decade.
Nuclear is a fantastic option for those annoyed by low power bills and want to see them basically double.

1725401364188.png
 
Nuclear is a fantastic option for those annoyed by low power bills and want to see them basically double.

View attachment 133100
Is that just the actual cost of production, or does it include government subsidies and regulatory costs? Nuclear power is much, much cheaper where it is more prevalent. And in the US, wind production gets at least $28/mWh from the fed.gov.

 
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Edit: in reference to post #78

And what is the distance of their daily commute, availability/usage of public transportation? If I want to go to a Walmart (which I never want to, but being married and all) it’s 45 miles of desolate rural iowa roads, in the winter time it yearly hits -20F, with dawn coming late and sunset coming early, and snow.. so if I’m trying to keep the windows defrosted, the headlights on, the car warm, and pushing through 4” deep snow in -20 degree ambient temperature conditions what’s my range?
Most of the way to Walmart?
 
Nuclear is a fantastic option for those annoyed by low power bills and want to see them basically double.

View attachment 133100
I wonder if this data takes into consideration the non operating towers. I was driving through rural Spain this summer and passed through several huge wind farms. By quick observations about 20% of the towers were not operating. Some looked intact but not windmilling, but a surprisingly large amount were with missing and broken blades, burned heads, collapsed bases...Couldn't help but think about millions of euros just sitting there.
 
I wonder if this data takes into consideration the non operating towers. I was driving through rural Spain this summer and passed through several huge wind farms. By quick observations about 20% of the towers were not operating. Some looked intact but not windmilling, but a surprisingly large amount were with missing and broken blades, burned heads, collapsed bases...Couldn't help but think about millions of euros just sitting there.
This.. I live in “wind mill” country, and they rarely turn. Atleast at generating speeds.
 
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This.. I live in “wind mill” country, and they rarely turn. Atleast at generating speeds.
I don't have them under continuous observation, but one of our customers is just down the road from me in Iowa, in Coralville. I drove past the farms off I-80 4x this year, and often overfly them going between KLNK and KORD where I can often see them. While there are always a handful of windmills stopped, I usually saw most of them turning. There was one trip that had calm winds and nothing spinning until I was closer to Des Moines and I saw the ones on a rise turning while those that weren't on a ridge were still. When I flew to K57 (Gould Peterson, Tarkio), I saw them turning- there a farm not far west of that airport. The ones SW of KCEK (Crete, NE) seem to be turning when I fly to that airport, too.

I'm not sure what you consider "generating speeds" but they only need ~8 RPM (1) and 6-8 mph wind (2). The really big ones only run at about 8 RPM (3), but those are off-shore units that you won't see in Iowa.

(1) https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/how-wind-turbine-works-text-version
(2) https://www.energy.gov/eere/article... speed (typically,its maximum, or rated power.
(3) https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1577816/haliade-x-uncovered-ge-aims-14mw
 
I wonder if this data takes into consideration the non operating towers. I was driving through rural Spain this summer and passed through several huge wind farms. By quick observations about 20% of the towers were not operating. Some looked intact but not windmilling, but a surprisingly large amount were with missing and broken blades, burned heads, collapsed bases...Couldn't help but think about millions of euros just sitting there.
The time that windmills are not always producing and the fact that night exists and solar doesn't produce are all part of the costs.

The reason nukes are so expensive is because they are powered by some of the most toxic stuff on earth and destroy entire cities when things go wrong. So they require a tremendous amount of money to (usually) keep them from going wrong. Nuclear energy has been a "couple years away" from being safe and cheap for about 60 years now because it's a hard problem to solve. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise or "but look at this new way of doing it". Believe it when it's actually in production and proven. Until then, the green alternative is solar/wind/hydro, all of which are in production and, happily, making some of the cheapest power out there.
 
Do you think Chinese citizens ever outspokenly complain about government mandates (without invoking memories of Tiananmen Square?
They must complain. Ok, follow me here, I'm applying Cap'n Jack logic to this. If they didn't complain, then there wouldn't be improvement, and the government can't accept criticism that there was no improvement, therefore, those that don't complain must be killed so that the government can't be criticized for not improving.
 
It’s like the electric cars: I’m kinda OK with the fact that because they don’t pay taxes at the gas pump they’re not paying their share for the roads - to a point. There’s getting to be enough of them now that I think they need to pay their share. Maybe a per-mile tax at the time of re-registration or something.
An increasing number of states are charging EV fees, as part of the registration process, to replace the lost gasoline taxes.

In my state, the fee is $200/yr would equates to 13,100 miles in a 30mpg ICE car at my state's, plus Fed, gasoline tax rate.
 
concur. Unfortunately, too many times people think that a wave of the hand will solve it. If only wishing would make it so...
And this is always the excuse to do nothing.
 
I wonder how all those EVs I see at ski resorts get there? Must be those warm weather ski resorts that aren’t in the mountains.
 
I wonder how all those EVs I see at ski resorts get there? Must be those warm weather ski resorts that aren’t in the mountains.
Yes, but do they all make back home again? :stirpot:
 
I wonder if that problem could be solved by federal and state governments eliminating tax on unleaded avgas.
Unfortunately in Colorado the tax on avgas keeps the airports in operation. There is no state funding for airports, it’s all avgas tax. Any improvements are Federal funds and state avgas tax. Want AWOS on all the mountains? That’s avgas tax. Want runways repaired? Avgas tax.
 
Unfortunately in Colorado the tax on avgas keeps the airports in operation. There is no state funding for airports, it’s all avgas tax. Any improvements are Federal funds and state avgas tax. Want AWOS on all the mountains? That’s avgas tax. Want runways repaired? Avgas tax.
That's why they should raise the tax on leaded gas rather than lowering the tax on unleaded gas.
 
Yes, but do they all make back home again? :stirpot:
I once drove between the Newfound Gap, in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, down into Gatlinburg on a cool Thanksgiving weekend day. Newfound gap is just over 5,000' MSL. Gatlinburg is 1,450' MSL. Distance was about 15 miles. My state-of-charge increased 5 percentage points.
 
I once drove between the Newfound Gap, in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, down into Gatlinburg on a cool Thanksgiving weekend day. Newfound gap is just over 5,000' MSL. Gatlinburg is 1,450' MSL. Distance was about 15 miles. My state-of-charge increased 5 percentage points.
I put it in neutral and coasted down the interstate in western NC coming out of the Smokys. While I didn't gain any gasoline in the tank, I was able to hit 110mph while at idle. Can your EV hit 110 without providing any power to the drive wheels ? :D
 
I put it in neutral and coasted down the interstate in western NC coming out of the Smokys. While I didn't gain any gasoline in the tank, I was able to hit 110mph while at idle. Can your EV hit 110 without providing any power to the drive wheels ? :D
That's just nuts.
But I bet it was fun!
 
Yes, but do they all make back home again? :stirpot:
Of course not, that's why the highways are riddled with EVs that didn't make it home with their owners remains rotting inside. Oh the humanity!
 
I put it in neutral and coasted down the interstate in western NC coming out of the Smokys. While I didn't gain any gasoline in the tank, I was able to hit 110mph while at idle. Can your EV hit 110 without providing any power to the drive wheels ? :D
I don't see why not. I can shift into neutral, too. What is less clear is why I'd want to.
 
The time that windmills are not always producing and the fact that night exists and solar doesn't produce are all part of the costs.

The reason nukes are so expensive is because they are powered by some of the most toxic stuff on earth and destroy entire cities when things go wrong. So they require a tremendous amount of money to (usually) keep them from going wrong. Nuclear energy has been a "couple years away" from being safe and cheap for about 60 years now because it's a hard problem to solve. Don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise or "but look at this new way of doing it". Believe it when it's actually in production and proven. Until then, the green alternative is solar/wind/hydro, all of which are in production and, happily, making some of the cheapest power out there.
France and other European countries run modern nuclear power and haven't "destroyed" any cities. France runs over 50 nuclear reactors. It can be done, and done safely especially with modern designs that make core meltdown an *almost* impossibility. This isn't Chernobyl/3-Mile island. The biggest deterrent to nuclear power is initial capital cost. You can greenfield a natural gas plant and have it producing in 3-4 years to start the return on invested capital. Nuclear takes a decade to accomplish the same thing and is multiples more expensive, so getting the necessary funding is very difficult when payback is measured in decades not years.
 
France and other European countries run modern nuclear power and haven't "destroyed" any cities.
Sure, if you ignore the cities that have been destroyed, the rest look great!

I still claim it's notable that this allegedly safe technology has destroyed cities and that the ones that haven't been destroyed were only saved by a firehose of money being sprayed at them, making it the most expensive energy currently in mass production.

France runs over 50 nuclear reactors. It can be done, and done safely especially with modern designs that make core meltdown an *almost* impossibility. This isn't Chernobyl/3-Mile island. The biggest deterrent to nuclear power is initial capital cost.
And operating costs and disposal costs. All three matter. The french know this also...


 
Even Three Mile Island wasn't "Three Mile Island". Too many people confuse it with that Jane Fonda flick.

The Mandela Effect is real. (E.g., "I can see Russia from my house!")
Don't forget the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant. Someone else will mention it.
 
Sure, if you ignore the cities that have been destroyed, the rest look great!

I still claim it's notable that this allegedly safe technology has destroyed cities and that the ones that haven't been destroyed were only saved by a firehose of money being sprayed at them, making it the most expensive energy currently in mass production.


And operating costs and disposal costs. All three matter. The french know this also...


Chernobyl is about the only incident that destroyed a city. Fukushima caused temporary displacement, but didn't destroy anything officially (doesn't mean it wasn't near critical after the tsunami/earthquakes). There are no other widespread nuclear power incidents that destroyed cities. It isn't cherry-picking, it's a testament to the extreme operational controls that are followed in order to keep nuclear power safe.

Natural gas/coal-fired power plants are cheaper, but those have their own operating/disposal costs . . . which often aren't as easily seen as nuclear because the coal/NG disposal costs are on the extraction side, not the power plant responsibility. Increasing environmental controls are adding to the expenses though.
 
Don't forget the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant. Someone else will mention it.
I'm not aware of any destroyed cities from it though. They evacuated a 20 or 30km radius when it first occurred, but I don't recall that being pervasive after the reactors were back under control. Probably still some fishing/agricultural restrictions in areas where they are releasing contaminated water.
 
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