Twin Ownership - Year 1 The ups and downs

I haven't heard anyone mention a 58P. Thoughts?

Limited production, less than 500 built over nine years. Same reliability issues as any retro-fitted pressurization of what was originally a non-pressurized hull design. If it was a good idea they would still be making it.

I know one pilot at our airport that has owned one for many years. Loves the plane, but it's a real maintenance hog compared to the conventional version of the Baron. And every time he has a problem with the pressurization the plane is grounded...it can't be flown non-pressurized.

Personally I would not have much interest in owning a pressurized airplane hull that was not designed from the outset to be pressurized.

Have you considered the Piper Malibu/Meridian?
 
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Yes the wait was extremely frustrating. 6 months was about double the original longest time given when I interviewed the shop. However no firm promises were ever given. There were a couple of extenuating circumstances that could be blamed on some but not all of the extra time. The builders position from the start was that it would be done when it was done

The build was good. And the price was as expected. When it’s time to do the other engine I’m not sure at all what I’ll do.

:yikes:,

aviation120116.jpg

That's a long time...:mad2:
 
Limited production, less than 500 built over nine years. Same reliability issues as any retro-fitted pressurization of what was originally a non-pressurized hull design. If it was a good idea they would still be making it.

Nailed it. Well said.

I've got a bit of time in the pressurized Navajo. Real clunker.

In general I'm not a big fan of asking piston engines to do too much. Turbocharging is about the limit. Pressurization and high altitude flight, well, it's just not a great idea. If you want to do those things, do it right and get a turbine ship of some sort.

Have you considered the Piper Malibu/Meridian?

The Malibu is the poster child for what I was just talking about... one single big bore piston engine, turbocharged and running white hot, dragging around an airplane, responsible for pressurization, electrical system pushed to the limit for anti-ice systems (PA-46 is known to pop breakers when you extend the landing gear with all of the anti-ace systems active), etc. etc. Way too much in my opinion.
 
I'd love a turbine-powered option (single or twin), but that's out of my price range...maybe down the road.

Didn't realize that the 58P was a retrofit. Makes sense now. I see why those More knowledgeable than me are steering toward the Cessna.
 
Yes the wait was extremely frustrating. 6 months was about double the original longest time given when I interviewed the shop. However no firm promises were ever given. There were a couple of extenuating circumstances that could be blamed on some but not all of the extra time. The builders position from the start was that it would be done when it was done

The build was good. And the price was as expected. When it’s time to do the other engine I’m not sure at all what I’ll do.
So during that six months is the engine apart for most of that time, or is most of the time waiting for a slot to get the work done.
 
The engine was apart the day I brought it in! The rest of the time was waiting for my build slot.
 
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I also considered the P-Baron and Aerostar. Because of my efficiency compulsion (12years Mooney ownership) I would like an Aerostar. However they are smaller cabins than a 414 and have a tail height too high for my hangar door. I was also more comfortable with mx support for the Cessna. I also strongly considered the PBaron, but the cabin was too small for my defined mission (4 adults, 2 kids). It would be a squeeze for the OPs family of 5.
 
I agree with @Ryan F. about the Malibu. Too much for that one engine. I’m not sure I agree that pressurization and high altitude flight require a turbine though. I’ve got 2 335hp engines that only have to give me 3.8psi differential pressure to give me a 10,000’ cabinet at FL250. Just one engine can hold that differential. The 414 is certified to 30,000’. So I don’t think they’re working that hard. The pressurization system itself is pretty simple, and not know for failures as far as I know. Sure I’d love a turboprop or jet. I enjoy flying them when someone else is paying. But you know well the huge cost differential that entails over pistons.
 
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.
 
I'd love a turbine-powered option (single or twin), but that's out of my price range...maybe down the road.
Don't know what your price point is for your 414, but early Meridians are down into the 600s and 700s. I'll put my name on one as soon as they drop another half million or so.
 
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.

Those things had so many changes and modifications over the years, its almost difficult to find any two that are alike ;)

I think Aerostar AIrcraft Corporation in Coeur dAlene, Idaho still does mods and supports these airplanes? Their reputation for being like tanks and going fast seems to have made them popular as fire spotters and bird dogs in some aerial tanker companies, as the drop planes have become bigger and faster.
 
Everyone talks about an Aerostar....
I’m no Aerostar expert, but I have been told there is a very significant difference between a Piper and the old Ted Smith models.

That’s what all the articles about them say, also.

And that they’ll eat you alive on maintenance.

And that their speed means they need to be flown by the numbers like a turboprop or jet, that wing will go fast, but it can have bad low speed characteristics.

Realistically, my “someday” budget for a twin probably looks more like a 310 than an Aerostar. ;)

But one can dream... of enormous maintenance bills, and filling 175 gallons worth of fuel tanks. Ha. ;)

Putting along at FL250 at 250 knots in a personal piston twin that can barely carry four comfortably is, in the end, kinda dumb, but appealing in an odd way. ;)

The older ones, single engine service ceiling suffers for all that efficiency in the wing, and is around 9500’, which means if you’re headed over big mountains, get high and stay high before crossing... you may need all that altitude to wind down slowly, getting somewhere with a runway long enough to land it on.

@stratobee flew his a lot and probably has a lot more and smarter commentary than I would ever have on it.
 
I noticed that the Duke was tossed out quickly and most have seem to agree. What driving that? I don't know much about them.
 
The problem with the 58P is that it's a 58 Baron, which is a small cabin (smaller than the 340). It's a hot rod, but not good for a growing family. 414 is what I'd look for, or 421 if you don't mind the geared engines.

Definitely join TTCF if you're interested. Don't get a Duke - I have to disavow that I ever worked for the company that disavowed making the engines on that plane.
 
Ha! Tony, I laughed out loud at that. Okay, the Duke is definitely off the list.

I'll start digging into the 414's and 414a's. Acquisition cost looks expensive, but I guess you get what you pay for most of the time.

Tell me about the geared engines on the 421's. Sounds like one more thing to go wrong.
 
I've never seen soo many TTCF members in a forum not in the TTCF forums....and providing timely feedback...unlike the TTCF forum.

While the TTCF forum has a lot of type specific knowledge, its lack of activity makes it a Jeb Bush ("low energy") forum compared to Beechtalk for instance.

overall, still worth joining.
 
414s are a lot more reasonable on purchase price than 414As. Personally I think the tip-tanked 414s are a great deal. They're a bit slower than the 414As, but you get the same cabin. 340s are cheaper these days, but there seem to be a lot of 340s with issues.

The geared engines have a reputation for issues. That said, a lot of those issues were caused by pilots not flying them correctly. When flown correctly, they're good engines that last pretty well. That said, they have their share of oddities. For example, they frequently lose oil prime, which means the oil pump needs to be re-primed or you get 0 oil pressure. I think a lot of people have had issues with that.
 
There have been unsubstantiated rumors of a duke actually moving under its own power...

The original engines are orphaned.
They are still viable and available. Plenty of guys are owners and enthusiasts.
 
414s are a lot more reasonable on purchase price than 414As. Personally I think the tip-tanked 414s are a great deal. They're a bit slower than the 414As, but you get the same cabin. 340s are cheaper these days, but there seem to be a lot of 340s with issues.

The geared engines have a reputation for issues. That said, a lot of those issues were caused by pilots not flying them correctly. When flown correctly, they're good engines that last pretty well. That said, they have their share of oddities. For example, they frequently lose oil prime, which means the oil pump needs to be re-primed or you get 0 oil pressure. I think a lot of people have had issues with that.
A decent 340 is $250, 414s are generally less but holding up better than 421s (because people are (unfairly) afraid of the dreaded geared engines.)
 
I want a Duke badly, the insurance companies apparently have no love for them currently, especially for someone transitioning into pressurized twins.
 
A decent 340 is $250, 414s are generally less but holding up better than 421s (because people are (unfairly) afraid of the dreaded geared engines.)

A decent 340 or tip tanked 414 will get you in the range of $250k plus. On the lower end of the market there are more 340s these days. I don't think the fear of the geared engines is entirely unfair given what I've observed, but to each his own. There are certainly benefits of 421s vs. 414s, so one needs to pick the pluses and minuses.
 
Besides the engine issue a Duke is pretty small inside compared to the 414/421. Should you have to overhaul an engine (as I did), the geared 421 overhaul will suck your wallet of an additional 10 to 15 AMUs compared to the non-geared 340/414 engine. This stuff adds up.
And it's very true that the TCFF ain't Beechtalk. Just don't have the numbers to reach the critical mass that they have. So join and help that situation.
 
Besides the engine issue a Duke is pretty small inside compared to the 414/421. Should you have to overhaul an engine (as I did), the geared 421 overhaul will suck your wallet of an additional 10 to 15 AMUs compared to the non-geared 340/414 engine. This stuff adds up.
And it's very true that the TCFF ain't Beechtalk. Just don't have the numbers to reach the critical mass that they have. So join and help that situation.
For a 6-seater a Duke is pretty roomy all the way around, but yes, it's not a C4xx... although it will fit into a larger T, where the 414A/421B-C won't. 340's seem snug to me, particularly up front.
 
I only had my Aerostar for 200hrs, but it was a reliable twin. You had to keep ahead of it maintenance-wise (mouse-milking the wastegates regularly, doing frequent oil changes etc), but it never left me stranded once. They do eat tires unless they're perfectly rigged, but no biggie. Yes, cabin is on the snugger side. Have to be flown by the numbers, or they'll bite. Fuel misers if you flew it LOP. Mine did 25gal/hr in total, doing 200kts up high. That's pretty good fuel economy. Excellently supported by Aerostar Air in Idaho still. If you buy one, make sure it has these mods as basic minimum:

Machen exhaust
Intercoolers
6-puck brakes
 
@Vitaly , as a Twin Cessna guy myself (and member of TTCF), I completely agree with @Lance F and @Ted DuPuis
I just joined TTCF also. A true wealth of information especially for this novice twin Cessna owner.


But I would look cool in a Duke!


Good to see your real-world numbers, thanks for posting. Us 310 owners just got hit with the heater AD too, mine has been gone almost 5 weeks and they haven't even started it yet... way too cold to fly it without it too :(
 
I just joined TTCF also. A true wealth of information especially for this novice twin Cessna owner.



But I would look cool in a Duke!


Good to see your real-world numbers, thanks for posting. Us 310 owners just got hit with the heater AD too, mine has been gone almost 5 weeks and they haven't even started it yet... way too cold to fly it without it too :(

I feel you... Has anyone's heater passed the leak test??? :mad2:
 
The 414A I fly had its heater pass in November. So it is possible. However I wouldn’t count on it.
 
In mid October 2016 a 50/50 partner and I closed on a 1974 Cessna 414. For the previous 12 years this same partner and I had shared ownership of a 1984 Mooney M20J. (That partner bought out my share of the Mooney, and I still have total access to it.)
After 12 years flying arguably the most efficient cross country plane out there, one could ask why in the world would I go to an older plane burning 3X the fuel? Well, first I wanted a twin; second I now have two granddaughters and a wanted a plane I could take them and their parents with Sue and me to interesting places; third I wanted to make some longer trips and pressurization and A/C would simply make those trips more pleasant; and fourth I wanted a twin.
The requirement for pressurization and A/C pretty much meant a cabin class plane. Initially I considered P-Barons and C340As. The 414 has a bigger cabin than both those at only a nominal loss of airspeed. Plus the tail height of the 340 was too much for our hangar door open clearance.
The plane ultimately selected has very good paint and interior and a super panel. A reasonably good prebuy/annual caught a number of things, but overall the plane was well cared for. The engines were both at 1200 hours on 1600 TBO.
I went to Recurrent Training Center in Illinois to meet insurance requirements for initial training and picked up the plane in Crestview, FL. I only had about 72 hours of piston twin time (and 450 hours jet time which almost doesn't count). Its 670HP and a bunch of systems are a big step from a 200HP 4 place Mooney. But I really enjoyed flying it, learning to fly the G600 glass and using the GWX68 on board radar. We made a few small trips including one to Eleuthra, Bahamas right away.
Then the left engine ate a couple of $tarter adapter$ and showed some metal in the oil filter. Oil pressure was well in the green but had been decreasing. My partner and I decided immediately the right thing to do was overhaul the engine. This ended taking almost 6 months and cost a bunch, but now we have a great engine. No question it was the right thing to do.
In the meantime I ended up with a contract pilot gig for a beautiful C414A, so kept totally current in type while waiting for this engine work.
Finally after this I was able to do a trip to Virginia with the granddaughters to a family wedding. And Sue and I took it to the grass at Gastons. Both fun trips.
We took it to a highly regarded twin Cessna shop in the Atlanta area for annual and that is just wrapping up. A new AD on the gas heater caught us, and two pieces of the exhaust on the non-overhauled right engine had to be replaced. And there was a lot of little stuff that adds up too. A lot more than the owner assisted Mooney annuals I was used to.
Sue and I are going to St. Augustine for New Years with friends for the next trip, and I'm sure 2018 will bring many more.
In spite of the time and money lost by the engine overhaul, I'm glad I have this plane. Between my plane and the contract flying I have 166 hours in type now. With this amount time in just a little over a year I feel fairly comfortable understanding all its systems and flying it in most any weather. This move does not make sense on a spread sheet, but I ain't getting any younger. There is a great Twin Cessna Flyers Forum that like this one has led to both great information on the airplane and new friends.
Anyone considering this step I would be glad to talk to.
Hello Lance, do you mind sharing the name of the shop you use in the Atlanta area? I have a new to me 340 and am based in SC. Looking for a closer shop for annuals than the one I currently use. Thank you.
 
I'd love a plane that will safely taken my family of 5 (kids age 13,11 & 10) from one place to the other. It would make long weekends in CO possible. I'd stay current with Angel Flights and visits to see family (200-500 mm). My Pitts is a lot of fun, but almost useless for going places. For reference, I'm a ~600 hr CSEL/CSES (instrument, tailwheel). Typically fly 50-75 hrs per year.

The problem is that I know little about twins and mountain flying. I have a ton of questions:
-What class of airplane should I be looking at to fulfill that mission and stay under ~$350k? (Barons, Dukes, 340s, 414s, Senecas?)
-Can I even get insurance? I'd like to consider doing the ME training in this plane. May be wiser to do it in something else.
-What's the best way to learn about mountain flying in twins?
-What is the practical dispatch ability? Assuming I'd need ice protection to even attempt it in most cases.
-How far am I from building the skill set to do this safely? I need a plan to get there.
Will all your kids be going with you all the time? Ask because they are right at the age where different sports/activities suddenly have very them going in different directions for the next decade, and then they will be off to school and careers! That was my experience anyhow.

50-75 hours a year is not enough flying to be moving a whole family around reliably. Maybe 100-150 for better proficiency. With an IPC every six months to include single engine work once you get a twin. A piston twin is a small airliner with not nearly enough power and has to be approached as such.

CO is a tall order which would have to bitten off slowly. Cessna piston twins are available with deice but their airfoils are not loving of even small amounts of accretion.

Make sure you have good reserves as the Cessna twins are getting long in the tooth from a maintenance perpective. Engines are the least of your worries as they are in principle bolt off bolt on items. Try replacing a fuel selector valve cable and transmission. Simple, but time consuming and expensive due to location and lack of access.

All that said a 414 or 421 will do the job. I wouldn’t mess with Dukes or 58Ps at this point and likewise with the Aerostar. There are fabulous well maintained examples out there but they are rare.

Meridian or King Air even better.
 
Well I have been down for half a year geting the details of myG500 AP install worked out. And due to re-doing the tanks this year, it will be a near 100K year. That's without TOUCHING the engines.

And it's worth it (I think....). Seneca II
 
Hello Lance, do you mind sharing the name of the shop you use in the Atlanta area? I have a new to me 340 and am based in SC. Looking for a closer shop for annuals than the one I currently use. Thank you.
I'm not Lance but he mentioned earlier in the thread he uses S&S Aviation at Cherokee Co. airport (CNI). Of course this thread is 6 years old so perhaps he's using someone else. I'm sure he'll pop in to comment.
 
I'm not Lance but he mentioned earlier in the thread he uses S&S Aviation at Cherokee Co. airport (CNI). Of course this thread is 6 years old so perhaps he's using someone else. I'm sure he'll pop in to comment.
Thank you! I looked them up and they look promising.
 
Will all your kids be going with you all the time? Ask because they are right at the age where different sports/activities suddenly have very them going in different directions for the next decade, and then they will be off to school and careers! That was my experience anyhow.
Fortunately, that next decade is more than half gone already. He posted in January 2018 that the kids were 13, 11, and 10. They are probably about 20, 18, and 17 now.
 
Well I have been down for half a year geting the details of myG500 AP install worked out. And due to re-doing the tanks this year, it will be a near 100K year. That's without TOUCHING the engines.

And it's worth it (I think....). Seneca II
Cough. Thanks for throwing cold water on my Seneca dreams Dr. Bruce :( :biggrin:

Does the Seneca use wet wing tanks like the 28's & 32's?

Disappointing to hear the A/P is not working out. The GFC500 is amazing in the Lance. What's the issue with yours?
 
Cough. Thanks for throwing cold water on my Seneca dreams Dr. Bruce :( :biggrin:

Does the Seneca use wet wing tanks like the 28's & 32's?

Disappointing to hear the A/P is not working out. The GFC500 is amazing in the Lance. What's the issue with yours?
All 28s and 32s I’ve seen use bladders. Same with the Seneca
 
Cough. Thanks for throwing cold water on my Seneca dreams Dr. Bruce :( :biggrin:

Does the Seneca use wet wing tanks like the 28's & 32's?

Disappointing to hear the A/P is not working out. The GFC500 is amazing in the Lance. What's the issue with yours?
The Seneca II has four wet wing tanks. Most of them also have two optional 15 gallon bladder tanks.
 
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