I've heard it done with others. The worst they can do is refuse to give me a vector. I'm going to attempt the approach without their help. What else can I do? Why would they not help?
VFR in the mountains - Part II
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I think he was describing a distress condition, in which case he didn't need to talk anyone into anything, just declare the emergency, tell them what he's going to do, and ask for whatever assistance he feels he needs.
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Velocity173
But until he either declares or ATC declares or treats his situation as an emergency, they can’t violate procedure. Even then, trying to give vectors below the MVA in mountainous areas would be extremely hazardous. MVA charts have very little detail to be doing that safely.
I don’t quite understand your post because it seems to be argumentative yet not saying anything contrary either. Of course I’m going to declare an emergency if I’m going to start flying imc in a plane not equipped.
If you don’t like my solution, what would you do in my scenario?
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Velocity173
Argumentative? I’m simply saying based on your scenario, if you’re wanting emergency assistance from ATC then you and ATC must be on the same page. I used an example of vectors below MVA as an example of where ATC could help out, but odds of that happening would be slim. All they can really do for you is monitor your position and wait for a down and safe call.
As far a solution to your scenario, it’s impossible to provide that because I don’t know about your aircraft equipment, your IMC experience, the actual airport in question, your fuel state and the actual weather. All we can say on POA is, well if you got down ok you made the right decision.
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GeorgeC
Ok, I'll bite. I'll use a local place as an example, Luray Caverns, KLUA.
It doesn't hurt to ask for vectors. The controller may know local landmarks. I would take any help I could get.
FAA has MVA charts. @chartbundle used to convert them to KML, but now they are available here:
https://github.com/dark/faa-mva-kml
I loaded it into ForeFlight. If I'm reading it correctly, the MVA is 4600, the ridge to the west is 3000ish. The valley is a few miles wide.
So, let's say the scenario is, I'm at 5500, the tops are at 3500, the bases are at 3000, and I don't have enough gas to go anywhere but KLUA? I'm squawking 7700 and advising ATC that I'm rated but not equipped, and that I intend to circle down, and that I'll call them after I land, because there's probably no comms once you get into the valley. Flying a pirate IAP with a consumer handheld would be the absolute last resort; circling over the airport seems less risky to me.
It doesn't hurt to ask for vectors. The controller may know local landmarks. I would take any help I could get.
FAA has MVA charts. @chartbundle used to convert them to KML, but now they are available here:
https://github.com/dark/faa-mva-kml
I loaded it into ForeFlight. If I'm reading it correctly, the MVA is 4600, the ridge to the west is 3000ish. The valley is a few miles wide.
So, let's say the scenario is, I'm at 5500, the tops are at 3500, the bases are at 3000, and I don't have enough gas to go anywhere but KLUA? I'm squawking 7700 and advising ATC that I'm rated but not equipped, and that I intend to circle down, and that I'll call them after I land, because there's probably no comms once you get into the valley. Flying a pirate IAP with a consumer handheld would be the absolute last resort; circling over the airport seems less risky to me.
I would assume that in addition to that, they would, at a minimum, keep other ifr traffic away from me.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you’re dealing with descending in mountainous areas, I’d have doubts about ATCs ability to see you near the peaks. 
Personally, I’d consider VFR over the top over mountains to be the equivalent of IFR over the mountains. Not something I’d do in a single, but my risk management differs from a lot of people.
Personally, I’d consider VFR over the top over mountains to be the equivalent of IFR over the mountains. Not something I’d do in a single, but my risk management differs from a lot of people.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Didn’t say they wouldn’t help. Didn’t say they would refuse to give a vector. Just that an emergency would need to exist. If you refused to declare they could do it for you. But to just say yeah, ok, and then it doesn’t work and you splat, they gonna have some splainin to do. I’m curious about some things. You have enough faith in your VFR GPS Navigator and ForeFlight to fly the Approach using them. What do you need vectors for? What airport is this and in what direction from it and how far from it when this scenario is going to begin. I think your idea is not a bad one given you were beyond the point where you could just find another airport to go to and were committed to this one.
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After my experience I agree with you completely.If you’re dealing with descending in mountainous areas, I’d have doubts about ATCs ability to see you near the peaks.
Personally, I’d consider VFR over the top over mountains to be the equivalent of IFR over the mountains. Not something I’d do in a single, but my risk management differs from a lot of people.
The vectors would be to answer your later questions. Just to get lined up.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, but would you scud run the valleys with me?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ok. Getting a ‘vector to final’ may have been more efficient than direct to an IAF/IF
We have some idea of the fuel state. He’s already mentioned fuel exhaustion so he can’t go elsewhere. I didn’t catch whether it was caused by (the usual) poor planning or in-flight decision-making or something else, but now it’s just about getting down intact.
The chances are that radar coverage will be spotty and without terrain knowledge, ATC will have limited ability to help once below their MVA or MIA. Depending on where, there might be a loss of line of sight communications as well. That’s typical in mountain areas. It was definitely true in my loss of power emergency in IMC over the Rockies. We ended up communicating via a passing airline.
I’d already diverted twice and used up more than a half hour of fuel reserves between diversions and trying to find a way down. I landed with 35 minutes of fuel left. No way I was going to divert again in that situation.
I though that comment made clear that I accept that the holes in the Swiss cheese were aligned and you were out of options at this point other than finding a way down.
So… are we talking about 0A9?
I was just clarifying with more specifics. I haven’t gotten the logs out, but that does not sound familiar
It was a WAG. There are several airports in that area which might qualify. I’m thinking one where the approaches are handled by Center rather than a TRACON and where a VFR METAR is meaningless unless the net MSL ceilings (plural) are significantly higher than the surrounding terrain.
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GeorgeC
Heck, I became an I Follow Roads believer after flying over the more remote, tree-covered hilly parts of PA...
You have not gotten your logs out yet for this rehash of a poorly planned flight?
That leaves us with a truly nebulous scenario, any idea that we have may not fit where you were.
The simple answer to the question of how to have had a better, safer outcome, would be that you needed to have had a larger fuel reserve when taking off, to assure the ability to fly out of the region with marginal cloud conditions, and lumpy ground.
Adequate reserves would be enough to fly to your preferred destination, then clear out of the mountains to a clearly forecast VFR airport, and another 30 minutes.
VFR into the Appalachians on a broken ceiling day simply does not work.
The biggest thing wrong was your failure to realize that you had a true emergency, notify ATC, and get the additional help they can give under those rules. That covers their ass if you fail to remain clear of cumulous granitous with your poorly equipped airplane.
Given declaring an emergency, there is no reason they cannot give a competent and rated pilot a safe decent to visual conditions over a suitable airport.
Note that I did not say "destination airport" They will pick the one with the least risk of crash. After you are on the ground, you then deal with the normal tribulations of life.
I think that you now realize that an expensive IFR legal GPS is a bargain. I bought one the year they hit the market, became proficient in its use, and never needed it. Today, it is in the College Park Aviation Museum.
That leaves us with a truly nebulous scenario, any idea that we have may not fit where you were.
The simple answer to the question of how to have had a better, safer outcome, would be that you needed to have had a larger fuel reserve when taking off, to assure the ability to fly out of the region with marginal cloud conditions, and lumpy ground.
Adequate reserves would be enough to fly to your preferred destination, then clear out of the mountains to a clearly forecast VFR airport, and another 30 minutes.
VFR into the Appalachians on a broken ceiling day simply does not work.
The biggest thing wrong was your failure to realize that you had a true emergency, notify ATC, and get the additional help they can give under those rules. That covers their ass if you fail to remain clear of cumulous granitous with your poorly equipped airplane.
Given declaring an emergency, there is no reason they cannot give a competent and rated pilot a safe decent to visual conditions over a suitable airport.
Note that I did not say "destination airport" They will pick the one with the least risk of crash. After you are on the ground, you then deal with the normal tribulations of life.
I think that you now realize that an expensive IFR legal GPS is a bargain. I bought one the year they hit the market, became proficient in its use, and never needed it. Today, it is in the College Park Aviation Museum.
No I haven’t. Thanks for making me happy I bothered.
I disagree.
More than an hour reserve is pretty healthy. I agree I shouldn’t have done the flight. That’s the point of the other thread. This thread is about after I got in the situation, the best way out.
I completed the flight safely under vfr with 35 minutes of fuel remaining. This statement of yours is just noise. This thread is simply to discuss a hypothetical scenario where I wasn’t able to do that. I really don’t understand why that is so hard to understand.
I already had a gps, but it was not installed At the time of the flight. Congratulations for never having made a mistake annd having infinite money and time. Apparently this thread was not posted for you.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Mountains are about the only place I Follow Roads…too much traffic. Normally it’s Magenta Hi Liter Direct. (I’ve wiped out whole cities with a yellow Hi Liter.)
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Bro do you even lift
Wait, you don’t know where u landed?
It was one of 6 stops on that flight alone and I've taken many other flights since then. It was not my planned fuel stop, or even my alternate stop. No. I don't recall. I don't feel it even matters.
Are you sure you got all the facts straight without referencing your logbook, plus flight plan and in flight scribble sheets?
The old flight plans and attached scribble sheets irritate my wife, but the are in chronological order. I reference them when describing how I dealt with scenarios such as yours. A few years back, I posted the story of transitioning from an IFR flight plan above a broken layer to VFR under with the co operation of ATC, and legally. Important fact, I knew the terrain under me. I knew precisely where I was when I reached VFR under the clouds.
Re how rich I may be to afford an IFR legal hand held GPS, since I only owned 10% of the plane that I few, I only had $10,000 invested in 'my' plane, the $1,000 GPS was shared with 2 of my partners, so about $400 extra.
I have not budgeted for sole ownership of a poorly equipped plane. At that time, we had dual NavCom's with ILS, IFR Loran with database, and ADF. Our hull insurance was for $100,000, but that was years ago. Plane is still flying, glass in the radio stack, and if I was still an active pilot, the cost of my original share was $1000.
I am not rich, just spend my money wisely.
The old flight plans and attached scribble sheets irritate my wife, but the are in chronological order. I reference them when describing how I dealt with scenarios such as yours. A few years back, I posted the story of transitioning from an IFR flight plan above a broken layer to VFR under with the co operation of ATC, and legally. Important fact, I knew the terrain under me. I knew precisely where I was when I reached VFR under the clouds.
Re how rich I may be to afford an IFR legal hand held GPS, since I only owned 10% of the plane that I few, I only had $10,000 invested in 'my' plane, the $1,000 GPS was shared with 2 of my partners, so about $400 extra.
I have not budgeted for sole ownership of a poorly equipped plane. At that time, we had dual NavCom's with ILS, IFR Loran with database, and ADF. Our hull insurance was for $100,000, but that was years ago. Plane is still flying, glass in the radio stack, and if I was still an active pilot, the cost of my original share was $1000.
I am not rich, just spend my money wisely.
IMO, you are still missing the point of the exercise.
I do not believe there is such a thing as a hand held IFR legal GPS. I believe you are very mistaken on the requirements of a legal IFR GPS.
I have run out of energy to respond to this.
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GeorgeC
Can you clarify the point of the exercise? The best I can come up with is "help me justify why I didn't declare".
You're definitely missing the point as well. I didn't need to declare. I completed the flight safely and legally while VFR.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
You gotsa crystal ball you carry in the plane? Ouiji board?
Didn't need them to complete the flight safely and legally while VFR. What the heck are you guys smoking?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
You said "You're definitely missing the point as well. I didn't need to declare. I completed the flight safely and legally while VFR." When you were airborne and first realized you were in some weather difficulties, how did you know you were going to complete the flight safely? If you hadn't completed it safely, would you have declared then? 'Tower, this is Salty, I just crashed, I'm declaring an emergency.'
Why would I declare an emergency when I'm not yet in an emergency? This makes no sense.
I was still VFR, within a few miles of an airport reporting VFR, with more than 1/2 hour of fuel left. It was not an emergency yet.
This thread is to discuss how to proceed if I wouldn't have been able to complete the flight as I did. In which case, as I've already said many times, I would have declared an emergency.
Did the VFR GPS have terrain information? I especially like the ones that show red and yellow areas based on your height relative to nearby terrain. Were the bases 3,000 MSL, or AGL at the airport? If it was the latter, spiraling down over the field should work if there isn't a big enough hole in the clouds.
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When terrain is an issue, IMO, where always matters. That may well be the ultimate difference between those with mountain savvy and those whose only experience is flatlands.
I don’t think it matters to have the conversation. I already can’t keep a few folks on topic. I should have diverted. I should have had more fuel. I should have declared even before the emergency happened. It’s a bit ridiculous already. If I threw out an airport, it would just shift to why I was wrong a thousand other ways and the discussion of how to get out of the scenario I’m painting would be even further lost.
… or it might be more relevant. We obviously disagree on that.
I’m really not up to another round of this. The first thread brought decent discussion. This one not at all imo.
I can’t describe the exact scenario. I can’t show you exactly what the clouds were like, what I experienced. Adding an airport name will not help at all.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Could you get down through that hole above the airport, except for the clearance requirements? If so, I'd declare and dive through that sucker. Or maybe just dive through it.
If not, I would declare, describe my situation, and ask them what they can do to help me get down. I realize that's not helpful, but that's 100% what I would do.
I've considered buying an Aera 760 for this scenario, since you can load and fly approaches. Not IFR legal, but in an emergency who cares?
I've also wondered if I would have the guts to do an intentional spin through the clouds as a maneuver of last resort. Would have to be 100% sure there was at least 1000-1500 ceiling below the deck though.
I never got a visual on the airport while I was above the cloud cover. It’s possible that was possible, but not up to the point I found another way in. I probably could have circled in and been fine. Especially knowing now what I didn’t know then about what I couldn’t see at the time. But I’m not brave enough to circle in and hope.