First class medical with two DUI’s

[StudentPilot44]

Hi everyone! I’m a new student pilot and looking for a little advice regarding my first class medical. I’ve read some past postings on here and I’ve come across a couple that are sort of similar to my situation, but I thought I would make my own post to see if I can get some feedback on my own situation. First off, my apologies if my questions have been answered on previous posts, I may have missed information along the way.

So, I am about 24 hours into my PPL and I went for my first class medical exam at the beginning of May this year. Of course, I wish I would have done my research first and did this before starting lessons. As the title states, I have had two DUI’s in my past, so I was deferred. I completely own the mistakes I’ve made in my past and take full responsibility for the poor decision making I have made.

My first dui was in 2002 and the second dui was in 2012. My BAC was 0.14 on both dui’s. I was 20 years old on the first one and 29 on the second one. I’m now 42 years old. There is nothing else on my driving record and it’s been clean since the last dui. I have sent in my full driving record, court documents, police reports, BAC reports, and personal statement. They have everything they need from me and my application went into “in Review” at the beginning of June. I haven’t heard anything as of now.

My questions are, does anyone know what the current timeline I’m looking at to hear something? I know I’m going on 3 months so far, but possibly knowing what to expect would help a lot.
Also, I would love to hear from others that are currently in the same process or from those that have had similar situations as mine and what I could potentially expect. I’m hoping a first class medical is possible as well.

Thanks in advance for all responses!

 

[flyingron]

You should have started with a good HIMS AME who would have gotten your ducks in a row. You're going to need to show provable abstinence and perhaps treatment. The FAA will also want you to demonstrate your obeisance to them by attending AA (though there's no indication that this is going to help you).

 

[dbahn]

I'd plan on two years even if you are squeaky clean now.

 

[bbchien]

TWO DUIs at any time in your life is going to be abuse. If they were both 0.08s, maybe not. But you're at the upper limit. The DUIs could be in 1960 for all the FAA cares.

A HIMS AME would start you on a private, held to FAA stds random urine sobriety demonstation program and send you to the HIMS psychiatrist (abour $4K) after the fourth month while you continue peeing in the cup. We can get those out of the agency (special) but it then takes about 7 months. So you are looking at a year and the posisbility of peeing in the cup for about 3 years' total.

If you can substantiate sobriety in your 30s it reduces the risk of being judged as beyond abuse- which is a disaster, and that chance albeit small is there.... just depends what's in your head.

As you have already been deferred, the agency WILL be sending you a demand for a random urine within 24 hours of receipt of the certified mail. If it's positive you will get an immdiate denial and invitation to go to full HIMS. Why? Any use of alcohol after the second offence is defined 67.307 dependency. That would mean, "see you after rehab", which the FAA views as education.

I'd plan on two years even if you are squeaky clean now.

...so in short, you need to "squeak".

 

[StudentPilot44]

TWO DUIs at any time in your life is going to be abuse. If they were both 0.08s, maybe not. But you're at the upper limit. The DUIs could be in 1960 for all the FAA cares.

A HIMS AME would start you on a private, held to FAA stds random urine sobriety demonstation program and send you to the HIMS psychiatrist (abour $4K) after the fourth month while you continue peeing in the cup. We can get those out of the agency (special) but it then takes about 7 months. So you are looking at a year and the posisbility of peeing in the cup for about 3 years' total.

If you can substantiate sobriety in your 30s it reduces the risk of being judged as beyond abuse- which is a disaster, and that chance albeit small is there.... just depends what's in your head.

As you have already been deferred, the agency WILL be sending you a demand for a random urine within 24 hours of receipt of the certified mail. If it's positive you will get an immdiate denial and invitation to go to full HIMS. Why? Any use of alcohol after the second offence is defined 67.307 dependency. That would mean, "see you after rehab", which the FAA views as education.


...so in short, you need to "squeak".

Thanks for the response Dr. Chien. Your guidance is super helpful. If the urine test is negative, which route and length of time am I likely looking at?

 

[bbchien]

At least 1 year (1 year if you get adjuged to havee only abused).

 

[George S]

if you need the name of a lab that can start you on random drug screenings message me

 

[bbchien]

if you need the name of a lab that can start you on random drug screenings message me

Right. But then the sponsoring HIMS AME has to testify to the randomness and to the conprehensive coverage. Say you leave the country for two weeks- and with ETGs' that's an alcohol test holiday. I don't think the HIMS AME is gonna testify to that - at least I won't. I would get a blood draw test upon the candidate's return. 100% of these are "sponsored SIs".

...and so it goes. If you want to do it just personally, that's another kettle of fish

 

[Al1606]

Soberlink. It works anywhere in the world as long as you have WIFI or network connection. You can even change your time zones and your HIMS AME will get the update that you are in a different time zone. Soberlink is also the only FDA approved version of testing.

 

[bbchien]

Yuh. I have half a dozen captains on this, but it is a rare student pilot that can afford this. It's not cheap. And it does allow you to travel worldwide.
You JUST have to keep it charged. And he has to have someone (MD) who as aeromedical knowledge as to what regeimes the FAA considers adequate, and has to have a way to alt-test whe the airman misses (and Airmen DO miss). So he needs a HIMS AME to run the program.

What George suggests doesn't have all of that. This requires "credible substantiated testimony" from the Sponsoring HIMS AME.

 

[StudentPilot44]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I don’t believe one of my questions was answered regarding the HIMS route. I’m wondering if I’ll have to go full HIMS (that is, if my urine test is negative) or if I am required to have an evaluation and it comes back clear. Also, is it recommended to wait to hear from them next before seeing a HIMS (since I’m already deferred and my case is on the docs desk)?

 

[Brad Z]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I don’t believe one of my questions was answered regarding the HIMS route. I’m wondering if I’ll have to go full HIMS (that is, if my urine test is negative) or if I am required to have an evaluation and it comes back clear. Also, is it recommended to wait to hear from them next before seeing a HIMS (since I’m already deferred and my case is on the docs desk)?

Based on your history, there is a strong presumption of substance dependence. The attached will give you an idea of what the FAA needs from you to go down the special issuance path.

https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/FAA_Certification_Aid_DA_Initial.pdf

 

[George S]

Right. But then the sponsoring HIMS AME has to testify to the randomness and to the conprehensive coverage. Say you leave the country for two weeks- and with ETGs' that's an alcohol test holiday. I don't think the HIMS AME is gonna testify to that - at least I won't. I would get a blood draw test upon the candidate's return. 100% of these are "sponsored SIs".

...and so it goes. If you want to do it just personally, that's another kettle of fish

What about thru choice labs? Wouldn’t they testify to the randomness of the testing? Last time I checked they test more than 600 pilots

 

[Anthem]

why are you doing a first class medical ? Are you trying to make it to the airlines ? Because your DUI's will be an impediment for employment. This is a little bit easier, but they will still want you to go through with it to get that as well.
But what the good doc is telling you is that you dont get to choose whether you are in HIMS or not. They are going to put you there. After a few years, they may let you out, but you're going to have to play in there sandbox until they deem its ok to let you out.

 

[bbchien]

What about thru choice labs? Wouldn’t they testify to the randomness of the testing? Last time I checked they test more than 600 pilots

Ariman calls in and sez "I'm on vacation in Western S DAK. and can't get to the lab". Does Choice then substitute a blood peth within the detection window of the PETH? Are they then going to tesfify that the candidate wasn't given a testing holiday in whcih he/she coud have continued with alcohol?

Sure George, anything you want....if it's convenient.

So go ahead and suggest that the poster bypass the HIMS AME. You're gonna be there for him after the denial, right?

Next poster will start with "first class medical after three DUIs" and on it goes.

 

[George S]

Ariman calls in and sez "I'm on vacation in Western S DAK. and can't get to the lab". Does Choice then substitute a blood peth within the detection window of the PETH? Are they then going to tesfify that the candidate wasn't given a testing holiday in whcih he/she coud have continued with alcohol?

Sure George, anything you want....if it's convenient.

So go ahead and suggest that the poster bypass the HIMS AME. You're gonna ge there for him after the denial, right?

Next poster will start with "first class medical after three DUIs" and on it goes.

Where did I ever say that the airmen would bypass a HIMS ame??? I simply offered the name of a lab where he could start his testing now instead of later. Also, if the airmen was out of town for longer than a urine could pickup ETG Choice labs would absolutely substitute it for a blood peth. It also would not really be that hard for the HIMS ame to pick up the phone and ask the administrator at choice labs if the airmen had any unreasonably long “ blackout” dates for the testing if that HIMS ame was retained 3 months after starting randoms with a lab.

You make so many assumptions about the things that people write on this forum and they are frankly just plain wrong. Either that or you don’t bother to read everything.

 

[bbchien]

Nor do you. You missed that A HIMS AME is going to to vouch for the randomness and lack of testing holidays that will not appear in Choice's record. Do you really think he coing to do that WHEN IS ISNT THE MRO FOR THE PROGRAM? YGBKM.

And I can tell you Choice does not do that. They don't even warn when the result is dilute, which is a MISSED test. They are among the most inexpensive of providers but nearly cost one of my airmen, his cert. But I wouldn't know about any of that would I?

Now there is ONE Exception. Serum peths every 21 days. That has no need of randomness. Pricey, however.

 

[StudentPilot44]

Question about the random alcohol screenings. I have been told to go ahead and begin the monthly random screenings (ETG) while my case is in review and waiting for the next correspondence from OKC. I’ve also been told that the random screenings I do BEFORE I hear from OKC don’t count, only the ones I do after I hear from count. Does anyone know the real truth about this?

 

[Al1606]

Question about the random alcohol screenings. I have been told to go ahead and begin the monthly random screenings (ETG) while my case is in review and waiting for the next correspondence from OKC. I’ve also been told that the random screenings I do BEFORE I hear from OKC don’t count, only the ones I do after I hear from count. Does anyone know the real truth about this?

I am pretty sure if the randoms are ordered through your HIMS AME they count. You should not be doing them on your own unless sponsored and followed by the HIMS AME.

 

[bbchien]

Al1606 has is correct. And it has to be a HIMS AME. List is at the bottom of the "Find an AME" page @FAA.gov.

 

[Al1606]

You can also ask to use Soberlink at lease twice a day, 3 is preferred from most AME's I have talked to.
In my opinion, Soberlink is the most accurate. It's also FDA approved. It's more costly, but a solid method.

 

[bbchien]

AL1606, price a soberlink and the monthlies. It's not a option for others than those well off in another porfession or sitting captains. Random Urine ETGs cost half as much,if that.

 

[Al1606]

AL1606, price a soberlink and the monthlies. It's not a option for others than those well off in another porfession or sitting captains. Random Urine ETGs cost half as much,if that.

I agree and understand. For me it was super convenient. I even traveled abroad and changed the time zone so my AME was getting the tests everyday.
The cost of taking time out of one's day and going for a random is also inconvenient.

 

[StudentPilot44]

I agree and understand. For me it was super convenient. I even traveled abroad and changed the time zone so my AME was getting the tests everyday.
The cost of taking time out of one's day and going for a random is also inconvenient.

Not for me when there is a lab right behind my job and with it only being once a month.

I’m more about low cost at the moment.

 

[bbchien]

Question about the random alcohol screenings. I have been told to go ahead and begin the monthly random screenings (ETG) while my case is in review and waiting for the next correspondence from OKC. I’ve also been told that the random screenings I do BEFORE I hear from OKC don’t count, only the ones I do after I hear from count. Does anyone know the real truth about this?

I start ‘em as early as possible. When done to the FAA STD by a HIMS AME, he credibly testifies and they all count.

 

[Tools]

The FAA STD that’s disavowed by the guy who is credited with developing the test?

Using LDTs that have ZERO credibility or oversight and not approved by the FDA?

Tests that are as known for false negatives AND false positives and generally laughed at by the rest of the medical world?

Great standards…

 

[bbchien]

Dude: Attempt to contain your bitterness. Besides, "that have ZERO credibility" is a bit of a stretch. Industry uses these and the outcomes are reasonable. Soberlink vs ETG is about cost. Pilots, not flying are POOR.

It is what it is. If you can get your congresscritter to even want to try to understand, "you're a better man than I, gunga Din". That's not our task. It's to get guys through the squares. And as a byproduct if they're better, that's a STELLAR outcome (Guess you've never been an Lt.)

I am reminded of the mid 70's ALPO commercial: "100% Beef and Beef byproducts". Health is between you and your doctor to DSM 5 stds. Aviation is something else....and it all started wih Federico Pena.

 

[murphey]

Dude: Attempt to contain your bitterness. Besides, "that have ZERO credibility" is a bit of a stretch. Industry uses these and the outcomes are reasonable. Soberlink vs ETG is about cost. Pilots, not flying are POOR.

It is what it is. If you can get your congresscritter to even want to try to understand, "you're a better man than I, gunga Din". That's not our task. It's to get guys through the squares. And as a byproduct if they're better, that's a STELLAR outcome (Guess you've never been an Lt.)

I am reminded of the mid 70's ALPO commercial: "100% Beef and Beef byproducts". Health is between you and your doctor to DSM 5 stds. Aviation is something else....and it all started wih Federico Pena.

Fred? What did Fred do, other than leave Texas because he knew a Dem Chicano would never get anywhere even with a law degree from UT and moved to Colorado and chose the absolute worst spot for the new airport, right in the middle of the Colorado tornado alley after his buddies kept jacking up the price of the land for the airport by repeatedly selling it to each other?

Citations: Westword

Adams Family Values

Federico Pena, former Denver mayor and current Secretary of Transportation, was so anxious to build Denver International Airport that he paid an $8 million "ransom" to Adams County. So says Jim Nelms, chief hostage-holder and an early player in Denver's airport game. In the Eighties Nelms served...

www.westword.com

Note: Front Range airport is now KCFO, a spaceport. The argument it was too far away from Denver...well, read the article and you decide.

Imagine a Great Denver Airport. Really.

The Pena administration didn't just imagine a great airport.

www.westword.com

Probe of Airport Funds Puts Pena Under Scrutiny : Inquiry: While he was mayor of Denver, city may have diverted money from federally subsidized facility.

The Transportation Department's inspector general is conducting an inquiry of special sensitivity for the agency's secretary, Federico Pena: Investigators are eyeing whether officials in Denver, where Pena was mayor for eight years, improperly diverted revenue from the city's federally subsidized…

www.latimes.com

Or were you referring to Brumley?

Gerald L. Brumley, Appellant, v. Federico F. Pena, As Secretary of Transportation; T. Allenmcartor, and His Successor in Office Admiral James B. Busey,in Their Capacities As Administrators of the Federalaviation Administration, Appellees, 62 F.3d 277

Gerald L. Brumley, Appellant, v. Federico F. Pena, As Secretary of Transportation; T. Allenmcartor, and His Successor in Office Admiral James B. Busey,in Their Capacities As Administrators of the Federalaviation Administration, Appellees, 62 F.3d 277 (8th Cir. 1995) case opinion from the U.S...

law.justia.com

Pena may have gotten the road named for him (always a traffic jam, by the way) but the Airport terminal is named for Elrey B Jeppesen.

 

[Tools]

I understand YOU are ok with “reasonable” care of a career. That’s clear. Good for you and your clients.

And you go right on and keep accepting that poor standard, because it is what it is. Really, why would you care about trying to improve that? Making good money doling out reasonable? Great.

I assume you explain the shortcomings to your clients? Or do you caution them to “guard their pee”? WOW. I also assume you know that these false positives occur NO MATTER WHAT they do with their pee….

A convo about pee… geesh.

How does any of this jive with “not accepting the unacceptable”?

 

[Palmpilot]

I understand YOU are ok with “reasonable” care of a career. That’s clear. Good for you and your clients.

And you go right on and keep accepting that poor standard, because it is what it is. Really, why would you care about trying to improve that? Making good money doling out reasonable? Great.

I assume you explain the shortcomings to your clients? Or do you caution them to “guard their pee”? WOW. I also assume you know that these false positives occur NO MATTER WHAT they do with their pee….

A convo about pee… geesh.

How does any of this jive with “not accepting the unacceptable”?

I, for one, am a beneficiary of, and grateful for, Dr. B's ability and willingness to help pilots navigate the FAA's requirements as they are (as opposed to tilting at windmills). I doubt that becoming a nonstop crusader against the injustice of it all would serve the needs of the pilots he helps.

 

[bbchien]

I understand YOU are ok with “reasonable” care of a career. That’s clear. Good for you and your clients.

And you go right on and keep accepting that poor standard, because it is what it is. Really, why would you care about trying to improve that? Making good money doling out reasonable? Great.

I assume you explain the shortcomings to your clients? Or do you caution them to “guard their pee”? WOW. I also assume you know that these false positives occur NO MATTER WHAT they do with their pee….

A convo about pee… geesh.

How does any of this jive with “not accepting the unacceptable”?

I have altered federal policy. Twice. Its' very tough to do. Have you done any of that?

 

[Tools]

Yes

 

[bradg33]

AL1606, price a soberlink and the monthlies. It's not a option for others than those well off in another porfession or sitting captains. Random Urine ETGs cost half as much,if that.

I have no need for it, but I was just curious about Soberlink. Looks to max out under $300/mo and about $500 for the device. Doesn't seem too bad, in the grand scheme of aviation costs.

Pricing

Compare the monthly prices of our remote alcohol monitoring programs. Find the plan that best fits your needs.

www.soberlink.com

 

[GoFlightMed]

Based on your history, there is a strong presumption of substance dependence. The attached will give you an idea of what the FAA needs from you to go down the special issuance path.

https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/FAA_Certification_Aid_DA_Initial.pdf

It's been my experience that every case is a little different. How high were the BAC's? How long ago were the DUI's? I've had some patients require the entire HIMS process and others that just require 3-4 months of monitoring and then certification. I'd recommend just following the requirements the FAA sets for your particular case and not worry so much about the horror stories that others have experienced. Good luck!

 

[Tools]

It sounds like ALL your cases required monitoring. I’d worry about horror stories… or at least educate myself.

THAT is what I’m trying to do.

False positives in the context of FAA REQUIRED LDTs have cost careers and LIVES. These false positives are EASY to deal with yet the FAA continues to bury their head in the sand.

FDA approval isn’t a standard of perfection, it’s a standard of UNDERSTANDING so that the imperfections can be dealt with.

The faa won’t use CDT because it’s known to have false positives with end stage liver cancer victims… how freaking many end stage liver cancer victims are being actively monitored? But we KNOW it’s limitations.

Do you know Greg Skipper? A pilot and former AME, who developed the ETG test for monitoring. He also set the 100 threshold but now believes 1500 is a more appropriate value since we have come to know more about the test. The faa knows this and keeps burying their head in the sand.

Have you educated yourself in these matters and do you brief your clients on all of this? All I hear AMEs say is “I’m not an expert in lab testing…”. Considering there is no MRO involved, you damn sure should be!! The careers of your professional pilot clients DEPEND on that.

 

[mryan75]

Yes

Which one if I may ask?

 

[Tools]

I wrote you a detailed response but you don’t allow personal messages.

This isn’t the place for me to list a resume. n0kkj@yahoo.com

It’s a zero not the letter oh.

 

[StudentPilot44]

It's been my experience that every case is a little different. How high were the BAC's? How long ago were the DUI's? I've had some patients require the entire HIMS process and others that just require 3-4 months of monitoring and then certification. I'd recommend just following the requirements the FAA sets for your particular case and not worry so much about the horror stories that others have experienced. Good luck!

2002 and 2012 DUI’s. 0.14 BAC on both. I appreciate the response. I’m trying to be proactive by starting the random monthly screenings while my case is in review. I have the hope for the best, expect the worst mentality.

 

[GoFlightMed]

2002 and 2012 DUI’s. 0.14 BAC on both. I appreciate the response. I’m trying to be proactive by starting the random monthly screenings while my case is in review. I have the hope for the best, expect the worst mentality.

If time and money aren't and issue and you want to be proactive, its completely reasonable to start working with a HIMS AME and initiate monitoring - quarterly meetings with HIMS AME, 14 drug tests in 12 mo, twice weekly AA meetings etc.

Do you have a solid HIMS AME?

 

[wellknow]

Good HIMS AME is invaluable. they know exactly what is required so they dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s and avoid surprises from the FAA that add months to the process.